...Tory failure to disclose donations broke the law

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
18
Canada
wallyj said:
I forgot to add this.Can you say Volpe,Pizza,Kiddies, Now there's a real Liberal.



I'm not too worried about Volpe. I don't think he stands much of a chance. It's that Ignatieff who stands a much better chance that has me worried.

I get intuitive aches slightly similar to those I had before Harper assumed power. I’ll hand it to Ignatieff in that he is probably the best spoken out of the bunch. I do recognize the charisma. However just like Harper, the positions taken prior to leadership is an indicator (eg. Iraq War now filled with torture scandals). I don’t know of many leopards that have managed to change their spots, and I dislike the proverbial leopard even more when it tries to pretend it has.

For instance Harper doesn’t just come out with what he really wishes to do as PM. How he really wants to change the country. Hey, if it’s what Canadians want, then why not just put it all out on the table? (eg. private health care). Instead actual intentions are kept behind the curtain until we are vulnerable to the government’s ability to assert powers over us.

That is when it’s a little late to not be screwed. It's a really scary thing.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
18
Canada
Re: RE: ...Tory failure to disclose donations broke the law

wallyj said:
No.I don't have any evidence that would produce a conviction. If I did I would turn it over. In court they have gotten off,in the real world they are guilty.


Guilty in the court of wallyj? Don't worry. Sometimes I fantasize of the court of elevennevele. In that court Bush would be right up there finally being held accountable for things only Nixon could of dreamed of getting away with.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
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Probably the most damaging aspect about this is the deliberate stalling that's going on. The CONs are supposed to be the best at the books. Their arrogance in asserting their "interpretation" (heh) attests to that attitude but when it comes to clearing their name they can't even figure out what the commisioner needs?

I don't think so.

They know damn well they've been caught with their hands in the cookie jar. That they are willing to look dim-witted about it for 2 and a half months leads me to suspect there's more to be found under the hood. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. Maybe a few tax reciepts got written after all. There IS the cheque-swapping scheme to be dealt with.

Adscam is dead. At this pace Baird's career will be too.
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
931
20
18
Re: RE: ...Tory failure to disclose donations broke the law

wallyj said:
No.I don't have any evidence that would produce a conviction. If I did I would turn it over. In court they have gotten off,in the real world they are guilty.

So, they are guilty without evidence? Guilty until proven innocent?
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
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heh

The Liberals point out that Harper, then the official opposition leader, contributed $4,500 to the party on Oct. 31, 2005, followed by a donation of $361.75 to the Calgary Southwest Conservative Association on July 12, 2005, bringing his total to $4,861.75.

But to be a delegate at the party's March policy convention, Harper would have had to pay either $540 for an early-bird fee or $600 at the door, bringing the prime minister's total donations to at least $5,401.75.

that's +$301.75

what "commercial value" they think they got out of sitting in chairs listening to each other is beyond me.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
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heh

Question Period today. Turns out a Liberal just revealled to the house the CONservatives have been taking donations off-books as a matter of practice.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
There have been no changes in the behavior of politicians since the first specimen slithered out of the primordial ooze...

Expecting honesty and integrity from politicians "practicing" politics in a society content to foster and maintain segregation based on disposable income, racial/cultual affiliation, gender and morphology, geography and every other spike on the demographic chart, seems peculiar if not downright hypocritical.

Politicians are managers, and as managers they have a responsibility to manage not only the circus of laws and the "legal-system", but the treasury and its contents and in fact the "image" of political process itself.

They've been letting the electorate know for years that once the politicians name is on the cabinet post and a column in the pension fund is labeled with their name, they don't give a **** what you think know or expect....

After the ink has dried, we don't matter and the proof of this inexorable truth is the fiction that any Canadian could do anything about theft, ineptitude malfeseance, racism, or in fact just about anything short of enraged slaughter of children captured on film or video before a live audience.

Once these men and women are inducted into the hall of untouchability, the most that happens is once and a while, the truth of their contempt and corruption manages to seep out into the public domain where feathers are ruffled and the atmosphere takes a hit from all the hot air expended in discussion of the sordid event or situation....

And that's it becase Canadians have after all is said and done, the government they deserve.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
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Follow the bouncing ball.

Our governments inform us that we should exercise trepidation and should prudently accept their assessment of issues that ought to command our attention if not our fear.

Fear the Moslem extremist and people of Middle Eastern appearance because after all, inside every Middle Eastern man woman and child, or inside anyone that might even resemble a Middle Eastern man woman or child lurks a potential terrorist assassin.

From the Arar Commissions report:

“On the issue of public disclosure, Commission Lead Counsel Paul Cavalluzzo, explains: “There are portions of the public report which have been redacted because of the government’s assertion of a claim of national security confidentiality (NSC). However the Commissioner is of the
opinion that this information should be disclosed to the public. The Commissioner urges the government to refer this dispute to the Federal Court for an expeditious resolution so that the public might get maximum disclosure.”

To imagine a government with “nothing to hide” is, as concept, either enthusiastically lofty in a Pollyanna-ish “Everything will work out just swell….”, kind of understanding, or evidence of a mass naiveté that boggles common sense and runs screaming from rationality.

How many years has it taken for the truth about any dark chapter in Canadian history to be afforded something akin to “full disclosure”?

From financial rip-offs to secret deals with the governments of other nations, Canadians learn of these machinations long after the Prime Ministers wife has checked out of town with the furniture and carpets from 24 Sussex Drive….. in books carefully written to permit culpability a safe escape.

To his credit however Stephen Harper is at least, up-front with handing money to American forestry tycoons after they’ve stolen it…..

How many miners died in a tragic mining disaster and were the government departments and people in charge of safeguarding miner’s safety ever brought to an accounting?

No there’s mention of the mine owners and some locals being fined but accountability at the legislature or on Parliament Hill….surely you jest….

Does the pulse of violence on Canadian streets and in Canadian communities follow any kind of detectable pattern?

Are there more homeless and more vagrants and more junkies around after governments have decided that a golf course or a museum board or a new road paved into the cottage of the sitting governments head-cheese should have priority over the Canadian treasury than adequately funding social services?

How do Canadians measure the effectiveness of their government when it comes to determining the actual antecedents to social and civil unrest?

Certainly Canadians are familiar with those times when a road is blocked by burning tires and automobile carcasses as disenfranchised natives exhausted after years of lies and double-talk forego continuing the exercise of sham justice and take matters into their own hands.

Maybe there’ll be a story or two about teen-age suicide rates on Canadian native reserves or mention of an increasing substance abuse problem in rural Canada (that just happens to be on native land)…..

Sometimes we even hear about water supplies on native lands being contaminated and how the practice of hauling water in buckets from the nearest stream is the level of attention brought to our native peoples’ difficulties by our elected officials.

The slipperiest of course are the more subtle kinds of malfeasance and corruption that get’s glossed over by a national press that’s manipulated by big money to keep the keel steady and anesthetize the great unwashed with juicy bits like sexist pulp trash cascading around a hockey player and a silver-spooned multi-millionaire playing at social conscience….

On the role of Canadian officials, taking into consideration evidence heard in public as well as in camera, the Commissioner found: “No evidence that Canadian officials participated or acquiesced in the American’s authorities decision to detain and remove Mr. Arar to Syria (…)
and there is no evidence that any Canadian authorities – Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) or others – were complicit in those decisions.” However, the Commissioner also notes that: “It is very likely that, in making the decisions to detain and remove Mr. Arar to Syria, the U.S. authorities relied on information
about Mr. Arar provided by the RCMP.”

“Although I cannot be certain without evidence of the American authorities, the evidence strongly supports this conclusion”. CSIS did not share
information with the Americans at this time.
The Commissioner also found that both before and after Mr. Arar’s detention in the U.S. the RCMP provided American authorities with information about Mr. Arar which was inaccurate, portrayed him in an unfair fashion and overstated his importance to the investigation. Some of
this inaccurate information had the potential to create serious consequences for Mr. Arar in light of American attitudes and practices at the time.”

Ok so the RCMP and CSIS didn’t “officially” talk to the goons at Homeland Security but they did “leak” erroneous false and misleading information to…., well of course we’ll never know because Stockwell Day and the caliber of such sterling folk like Guliano Zacardelli and Anne McLellan don’t want us to know the truth.

You remember, a man with a lengthy list of criminal involvement cited repeatedly by members of the community he lived near as a “psycho” dealing in stolen vehicles and hoarding firearms managed to execute four Mounties that Zacardumb and Anne McDumber immediately assured us all was outcome from a “pot growing operation”….

Oh no Canadians have to dig for the skinny on what’s going on in this nations because when we leave the administration of law finance and government to the caliber of folk we’ve seen fit to elect over the past fifty years the “truth” get’s lost along the way and we all would “at the end of the day”…..just pull our necks back into our shells and ignore what’s going on until there’s a knock on your door or a flashlight shining in your eyes held by one of our faithful keepers of the great Canadian democracy.
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
118
63
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Newfoundland!
surprise surprise, a politician lied/did something unethical. bloody surprise.

geese honk, cows moo, sheep bleat, old women fart, and politicians lie and cheat.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Hermantrude

Greetings! J

Yes it seems remarkable that Canadians can still muster up a good bout of arm flapping and jowl jumping over so common an occurrence as lies issuing from the mouths of Canadian politicians!

Doesn’t surprise me in the least and although I might be confused by your contribution, it strikes me that it doesn’t appear to shock or surprise you either!

I participated for a good while on a Canadian website that claimed non-affiliation with any political party or candidate only to find that as far as the website host was concerned, the sun did not in fact rise in the east and set in the west but emerged into the paradise we all occupy out of the nether regions of Paul Martin’s physiology. Criticism of the Tug-Boat was frowned upon and of course I, always exercising the maximum degree of contempt for anyone attempting to feed me crap disguised as ambrosia was summarily banned for common sense and logic.

How do these business tycoons handle being implicated in criminal activities?

Is there anything to learn from Ken Lay of Enron fame?

“In the 11-count indictment, Lay was accused of lying to the public, investors and Enron employees in charges that include securities and wire fraud and making false statements.”

“Thousands of former Enron employees saw their retirement funds disappear when the energy giant collapsed--but Kenneth Lay has millions socked away in lawsuit-proof investments.”
By Bill Hogan
February 21, 2002

Like their political cousins, fat-cat entrepreneurs and businessmen aren’t concerned in the least about what happens to victims as the result of their theft and ineptitude. They’ve protected “their’s” and everyone else can cut bait….

If an average citizen had stolen three hundred million dollars, or the manager of a bank allowed cashiers to wander-off with thousands or the plant manager was responsible through ineptitude and mismanagement for multi-million dollar losses that ended up in the coffers of his private little club, is there any doubt in anyones mind that these folk would feel the full weight of the law?

What’s the difference between the street thug who robs you at knife or gun-point and a politician who destroys your pension fund, reduces your quality of life as a ‘cost-saving-endeavor’ or ignores corruption malfeasance and criminality committed on his or her watch?

A three piece suit and little else.

Canadians and Americans and everyone merrily practicing our style of “democracy” surrenders voluntarily to the caprices of the wealthy elite who having shoe-horned their way into “public service” immediately put those practices of “business” to work. In “business” as history demonstrates from the first earliest records, everything is allowed provided you can obfuscate and fuzzify what you’re doing and provide yourself with an rabbit hole to disappear into should the great unwashed somehow stumble onto awareness of your perfidy.

We have the government we deserve because we allow this con-game to continue. We have the government we deserve because we gulp down vast quantities of half-truthes, lies, empty promises and bovine manure without a seconds thought.

Someone made the decision to purchase junk submarines. Someone made the decision to cancel helicoper contracts that cost Canadians and still costs Canadians in penalties. Someone decided it would be a good idea to send young men and women to Afghanistan to kill Afghanis indiscriminately and support the American neo-con governments increasingly less stealthy vie for market and resource domination.

We’re told we should be afraid of these Taliban cum Al Quaida sympathizers and that’s the reason we should be in Afghanistan.

Horsepucky!

Canada has troops in Afghanistan because our current “leader” is trying to forge “business” alegiances with the same people who threw away our famous NAFTA agreement when they weren’t making sufficiently fat profits.

That’s why we’re in Afghanistan and that’s why Canadians are betraying our troops and further tarnishing the “image” that Canada had enjoyed for decades…just business dontcha know….
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
18
Canada
I agree in that we should always be as outraged as through it were the first time. There is such a great harm when a society becomes apathetic. It plays right into the hands of those who would wrong us.

It’s not about being surprised towards such things. It’s about being constant and consistent with the level of criticism towards such things. Rather our situation as a society declines when there isn’t the same level of outrage from the majority of the population.

When all the wiser, we should voice it. Not lay down before our greater understandings.
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
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Newfoundland!
I wasn't commenting specifically on canadian politicians. I don't believe there are honest, clean politicians anywhere. i'm sure mostly they mean well, but give any one of us that much power and we're bound to cock it up sometimes, and then probably lie about it, and a good few of us are likely abuse that power too. power corrupts and all the rest.

maybe i should learn a lesson from you elevennevele. I had given up caring... but i suppose the only way to keep it under control is to let them know how pissed we are, react strongly every time.

I don't know if you heard about it but a few years ago one of our(i'm british btw, we used to have little flags so everyone'd know grrr) politicians hit a member of the press, a full-blown smack to the chops. Very enjoyable to watch, like a pig biting a worm, or something, maybe a wasp stinging an ant
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Hermann

Greetings my good fellow! J

Understand if you will right from the beginning that I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written in your contribution to this discussion. I only wish to invite a camera-out-boom-up shot of the lovely little planet we’re all sharing today.

A wider perspective if you would that even though folk may at some level share an awareness of the grave situation facing us all, it’s important to remember not to overlook any perspective or presentation available in examining ways to improve our experience of the times in which we live.

As “foundation” can we agree that the outcomes produced by any action resulting in changing our experience of existence can be assessed through examining the quality of life being experienced by the greater majority of people living in any “democracy”?

If we throw out the “high-end” (the number of Canadian millionaires per capita continues to grow)

“Canada's population of millionaires grew last year by 7.2 per cent, which was down from an increase of 8.3 per cent in 2004. The study did not provide absolute figures on the number of millionaires in Canada.”

And the welfare end of things:

“Progress in reducing the child poverty rate gradually from 1996 to
2001 was welcomed. However, Canadian governments fell short of making the sustained key investments that would have propelled the downward trend. Most recent information shows that 1.2 million children and their families still live below the poverty line.”

The question then becomes how to best interrogate the concept and applying which particular scale might yield the more accurate assessment.

How best to describe the climate Canadians experience in terms of “quality of life” is tied inexorably to the facility to and frequency of consumption.

That’s the metric favored in these mercantile times and consumption is the essence of “quality of life” as prescribed by our social/economic engine wouldn’t you agree?

But believe it or not, there is more going on in the world than the exchange of symbols and script in pursuit of what appears to be an elusive happiness…

Canadians are paying for young men and women to prosecute war on a people in a nation that has absolutely no direct links with Canada (albeit there are some Afghan people living here), in terms of our “balance of trade”, our “trading partners” and all the gobbledygook of MBA’s struggling to legitimize their salaries. If any Canadian industry finds itself paralyzed by the war in Afghanistan, the people of Canada would appreciate hearing about it!

I’d hazard a guess that the stresses and hurdles imposed on say forestry production or beef and slaughter animal production and trade; wheat, corn and other grain and seed production in Canada etc are at far greater risk and suffering more severe impediments to success as product of governments manipulated by corporations in the United States and Canada than they are suffering from hostilities occurring in Afghanistan.

Well you say, the truth of the matter is that Canada is simply supporting the war on terrorism….a terrorism experienced in New York, Madrid, London, Yemen and several other places, but the flavor of terrorism more frequently experienced in Canada by Canadians is the “Get a gun and slaughter a bunch of children, women, innocent victims” by a crazed gunman cum gangster.

Not the terrorism of thousands of daily sorties into already devastated cities towns and villages on the other side of this little planet. Not the destruction of homes and farmland, the ruination of infrastructure and social systems that millions of strangers in places like Lebanon and Sudan and a dozen other places around the world where fighting terrorism has come to equate to “introducing ‘democracy and freedom’ at the end of a gun or the detonator on a “smart-bomb”.

We’ve been pointed at the “enemy” by people whom if even a cursory examination of their financial dynamic were done would demonstrate that they have amassed and continue to amass enormous sums on all the various warring “fronts” currently being entertained.

I’d invite critique on Canada’s record of environmental responsibilities and how gloriously successful Canada has answered the haunting hollow echoes produced by melting permafrost, the number of “bad-air” days over major Canadian cities and the frequency of warnings from Environment Canada about not forgetting to put on your sun-block before jogging off through the park…

Then I’d like to draw a comparison between the corporate/financial response to what has now even been acknowledged by George Bush as a serious acceleration in global warming attributable to green house gasses etc…

We live in a world among societies that have wholly acquiesced to the power and mystic of money and the pleasures of conspicuous consumption while devaluing human life everywhere on this planet.

Corruption in government, particularly corruption that thrives and grows at the very pinnacle of “democratic process” under the aegis of economic sustainability isn’t news. Neither are the scrums of lobbyists and power brokers representing hungry (greedy) corporations lobbying to secure and if possible increase the level of consumption thereby permitting a select few to wield enormous power politically isn’t unheard of over the span of human history certainly, but what is most often neglected in reaching conclusions regarding that situation is that it is also a symptom of grave illness consuming society from within.

Corrupt government is agency of the people and if it isn’t, why aren’t Canadians a great deal more angry about our situation than they are?