The ugly side of debate

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

I just read Five Paradox' thread and have taken a few minutes to reflect on how things have gone since I've come here.

The debates have been interesting and on occasion they could get a bit scrappy. For the most part I've found my stay here very interesting and at times exhilerating.

Sadly I have been drawn into some mudslinging myself and for that I apologize. I suppose it is a visceral thing when someone attacks your ideals, you snap back. When someone goes on a personal attack, it can get ugly.

I think my handle is pretty evident as to what I am. I served 12 years in the combat arms before I had to leave for medical reasons which was the result of three leg operations. I am employed full time now and have been since my release. My Son is overseas in Afghanistan and every day is a day closer to when he comes home. I am proud of my service, but I am prouder of him. I have two more boys, one which wants to work in the film industry and the other wants to be like his big brother.

Why am I saying this? Well I guess I just want you folks to know where I am coming from. I am very passionate about the military, it is my achilles heal I guess and someone wanting to attack me personally need only call soldiers baby killers or some other monstrous statement.

So here it is. Where I've engaged in mudslinging I apologize. If there are feelings that I should leave on that account I will. Likely I won't be around much in the near future as I am now in full recovery froma surgery performed last Tuesday and the family has to eat.

So let me know and if I stay I can't guarantee I will not debate you or mix it up, but I will try and keep my commentary on track and on subject.

Cheers
M

 

[zoofer]

RCS.
I seldom apologize for my posts. I have once or twice in about 20,000 over the years. My anti American anti Semite antenna is set on high. When I see stupid ignorant AA - AS posts I generally hit back. Some nutters seem impervious to normal slagging so I resort to sharper personal replies of contempt. Lately I have mellowed a bit. I just ignore the most blatant cases.
(Note to nutters. If I ignore your AA/AS posts consider yourself a blatant case)
The forum is lucky you dropped by, hopefully for a long stay.
There are about a dozen exceptional posters on CC. The ones I have seen posting anyhow. You are one of them IMO.

 

[Kreskin]

RCS, stick around and be yourself. You present articulate arguments/positions and you keep your cool pretty well. Sometimes things heat up. That will happen no matter who is here.

You aren't the only one who is proud of your son. Everyone here owes you and him our gratitude.

 

[Finder]

Retired_Can_Soldier... bravo. Wow you never stop surprising me.

 

[FiveParadox]

Retired_Can_Soldier, allow me to be perfectly clear — if you even attempt to turn to leave, you can expect my colourful powers to reach through your monitor and strap you down in your chair. You aren't going anywhere yet.

 

[Hank C]

The man in black is gonna leave, why would you leave? Did I miss something going on here today?

Anywho I doubt you are the problem on this forum (not that I think there is a problem). What is with everyone lately, dang people get offended pretty easily here.

Why am I saying this? Well I guess I just want you folks to know where I am coming from. I am very passionate about the military, it is my achilles heal I guess and someone wanting to attack me personally need only call soldiers baby killers or some other monstrous statement.

I too share the same feelings on the military as you do RCS....I have family in Iraq currently, and when you hear comments like that it ticks you off. But you have to understand that these people don't really hate your son, they have simply been conditioned and fallen victim to popular belief of this period. If you asked people on the street, 90% of those who are against the war do not know what we are doing there and simply are against the effort in Afghanistan because they are uneducated on the issue. ( its cool to be against anything that can be called war, or anything that includes the US).

I have yet to meet a person on this forum who can prove that "cutting and running" in Afghanistan would be a good idea. A good idea for the people of Afghanistan? A good idea for our soilders and our military experience there which I believe in valuable? Will pulling out and abandoning our mission be better for the world and that region? Has what we have accomplished thus far not something to be proud of? Its easy to say we should not be in Afghanistan, but why and how will it be better for the people of Afghanistan, Canada, and the world if we pull out tomorrow?

God bless your son serving in Afghanistan

 

[Finder]

The man in black is gonna leave, why would you leave? Did I miss something going on here today?

Anywho I doubt you are the problem on this forum (not that I think there is a problem). What is with everyone lately, dang people get offended pretty easily here.

Why am I saying this? Well I guess I just want you folks to know where I am coming from. I am very passionate about the military, it is my achilles heal I guess and someone wanting to attack me personally need only call soldiers baby killers or some other monstrous statement.

I too share the same feelings on the military as you do RCS....I have family in Iraq currently, and when you hear comments like that it ticks you off. But you have to understand that these people don't really hate your son, they have simply been conditioned and fallen victim to popular belief of this period. If you asked people on the street, 90% of those who are against the war do not know what we are doing there and simply are against the effort in Afghanistan because they are uneducated on the issue. ( its cool to be against anything that can be called war, or anything that includes the US).

I have yet to meet a person on this forum who can prove that "cutting and running" in Afghanistan would be a good idea. A good idea for the people of Afghanistan? A good idea for our soilders and our military experience there which I believe in valuable? Will pulling out and abandoning our mission be better for the world and that region? Has what we have accomplished thus far not something to be proud of? Its easy to say we should not be in Afghanistan, but why and how will it be better for the people of Afghanistan, Canada, and the world if we pull out tomorrow?

God bless your son serving in Afghanistan

I've not met a person in this forum who has said to cut and run... well maybe Darkbeaver I can't remember what he said on this issue.

 

[cortezzz]

The man in black is gonna leave, why would you leave? Did I miss something going on here today?

Anywho I doubt you are the problem on this forum (not that I think there is a problem). What is with everyone lately, dang people get offended pretty easily here.

Why am I saying this? Well I guess I just want you folks to know where I am coming from. I am very passionate about the military, it is my achilles heal I guess and someone wanting to attack me personally need only call soldiers baby killers or some other monstrous statement.

I too share the same feelings on the military as you do RCS....I have family in Iraq currently, and when you hear comments like that it ticks you off. But you have to understand that these people don't really hate your son, they have simply been conditioned and fallen victim to popular belief of this period. If you asked people on the street, 90% of those who are against the war do not know what we are doing there and simply are against the effort in Afghanistan because they are uneducated on the issue. ( its cool to be against anything that can be called war, or anything that includes the US).

I have yet to meet a person on this forum who can prove that "cutting and running" in Afghanistan would be a good idea. A good idea for the people of Afghanistan? A good idea for our soilders and our military experience there which I believe in valuable? Will pulling out and abandoning our mission be better for the world and that region? Has what we have accomplished thus far not something to be proud of? Its easy to say we should not be in Afghanistan, but why and how will it be better for the people of Afghanistan, Canada, and the world if we pull out tomorrow?

God bless your son serving in Afghanistan

I've not met a person in this forum who has said to cut and run... well maybe Darkbeaver I can't remember what he said on this issue.

i have actually said cut and run
and have the right to do so
this is all a ploy to suppress criticism of the war

omar:

hi my name is omar i want to tell you that i am not antiamerican or anticanadian but i survived a bombing of my villlage from american planes who dropped bombs on my uncles wedding and killed 20 people-- they said they were sorry after--
i am blind and will not be able to walk for rest of my life
also many troops are handing over innocent people to americans to be tortured---- etc etc etc

cut and run

 

[Finder]

The man in black is gonna leave, why would you leave? Did I miss something going on here today?

Anywho I doubt you are the problem on this forum (not that I think there is a problem). What is with everyone lately, dang people get offended pretty easily here.

Why am I saying this? Well I guess I just want you folks to know where I am coming from. I am very passionate about the military, it is my achilles heal I guess and someone wanting to attack me personally need only call soldiers baby killers or some other monstrous statement.

I too share the same feelings on the military as you do RCS....I have family in Iraq currently, and when you hear comments like that it ticks you off. But you have to understand that these people don't really hate your son, they have simply been conditioned and fallen victim to popular belief of this period. If you asked people on the street, 90% of those who are against the war do not know what we are doing there and simply are against the effort in Afghanistan because they are uneducated on the issue. ( its cool to be against anything that can be called war, or anything that includes the US).

I have yet to meet a person on this forum who can prove that "cutting and running" in Afghanistan would be a good idea. A good idea for the people of Afghanistan? A good idea for our soilders and our military experience there which I believe in valuable? Will pulling out and abandoning our mission be better for the world and that region? Has what we have accomplished thus far not something to be proud of? Its easy to say we should not be in Afghanistan, but why and how will it be better for the people of Afghanistan, Canada, and the world if we pull out tomorrow?

God bless your son serving in Afghanistan

I've not met a person in this forum who has said to cut and run... well maybe Darkbeaver I can't remember what he said on this issue.

i have actually said cut and run
and have the right to do so
this is all a ploy to suppress criticism of the war

omar:

hi my name is omar i want to tell you that i am not antiamerican or anticanadian but i survived a bombing of my villlage from american planes who dropped bombs on my uncles wedding and killed 20 people-- they said they were sorry after--
i am blind and will not be able to walk for rest of my life
also many troops are handing over innocent people to americans to be tortured---- etc etc etc

cut and run

lets see the americans remove the Taliban, and if they cut and run at best the Taliban will come back and kill the few liberal minded politicians who are trying to very hard to turn that nation around, the very worst all the war lords fight with each other again and countless thousands will die. Yes cutting and running will achieve so much death and destruction, inequility, torture and more... kind of hearltess of you.

 

[cortezzz]

i didnt mean to be heartless
i sincerely believe that weve already caused more damage by being involved
im not sure that the current governmant is really that much better than the taliban-- regardless of the symbolism of the ballot box

i guess it boils down to what one believes is achievable
if i was convinced that these interventions were trully bringing about a positive change rather than representing a ---heartless power and resource grab-- i would agree -- stay and do the right thing-- its just that considering the history of this type of intervention---i just cant see it in a non cynical way

when i say cut and run-- it sounds provocative
so what
again-- as a canadian-- how can people who have kids over there not see that somone arguing that their loved ones be spared the indignnity of having to engage in unethical war-- someone who would rather see his fellow citizens safe at home---- to do what we pay them to do -- ie defend canada-- not be used by ---
you know who--
that these person - is on their side

wouldnt you like to see these families reunited rather than used as cannon fodder
i would

and -- your right--- i COULD be wrong
so what
im going to keep stating my opinion
like all the other posters do
if and when i see it another way

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: The ugly side of debate

i didnt mean to be heartless
i sincerely believe that weve already caused more damage by being involved
im not sure that the current governmant is really that much better than the taliban-- regardless of the symbolism of the ballot box

i guess it boils down to what one believes is achievable
if i was convinced that these interventions were trully bringing about a positive change rather than representing a ---heartless power and resource grab-- i would agree -- stay and do the right thing-- its just that considering the history of this type of intervention---i just cant see it in a non cynical way

when i say cut and run-- it sounds provocative
so what
again-- as a canadian-- how can people who have kids over there not see that somone arguing that their loved ones be spared the indignnity of having to engage in unethical war-- someone who would rather see his fellow citizens safe at home---- to do what we pay them to do -- ie defend canada-- not be used by ---
you know who--
that these person - is on their side

wouldnt you like to see these families reunited rather than used as cannon fodder
i would

and -- your right--- i COULD be wrong
so what
im going to keep stating my opinion
like all the other posters do
if and when i see it another way

What would you have against a UN lead mission to Afcanistan to help stabilize the nation? I guess that would be too imperalist for you? However bad the current government nothing could compair to the Taliban and what they did to progress peoples, women, children and pretty much anyone who didn't agree with them. Currently the Afcan occupation is the only thing keeping that nation from going to helll in a hand basket and leading to more deaths. Right now Women can protest, something they were unable to do really under the Taliban. Yeah the current government sucks but returing to the Taliban is no move forward.

No I think being progressive with this issue is better and pushing for a UN mission to afcanistan of restructuring and something with some teeth and back bone to insure no atrocities happen.

Cutting and running will make things worse, plus the amount of poverity we would have produced from the war in the first place would add onto the presurers of the nation and turn them towards fanticalism that much more.

 

[Kreskin]

RCS, my wife's great grandfather died at Vimy Ridge. Her father fought in Korea. My father the WWII. Needless to say we have great respect for those who have fought for our country.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

I lost two Uncles at Courcelette. One was 16 the other 18 they died two days apart. It was a terrible war.

Ubique
M

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Cortez: this is all a ploy to suppress criticism of the war

You may criticize all you want Cortez. My reason for this post was a reaction to the general populations feeling there has been a decline in civility. I have apologized for my part in that decline.

Mixing it up with a fellow like you can get pretty ugly. I shared some of the stone throwing and in retrospect I think it was counterproductive to a forum debate.

If you want to rant on about the atrocity of war, or decry our soldier as killers or puppets or whatever hogwash you want, go ahead. I just won't be a party to it.

No suppression. And no more mudslinging.

Good day Cortez.

 

[Hank C]

lets see the americans remove the Taliban, and if they cut and run at best the Taliban will come back and kill the few liberal minded politicians who are trying to very hard to turn that nation around, the very worst all the war lords fight with each other again and countless thousands will die. Yes cutting and running will achieve so much death and destruction, inequility, torture and more... kind of hearltess of you.

Its not only the Americans, Canada and others are workign hard and spending alot of money to help repair this war torn country. Afghanistan is currently Canada's largest recipient of foreign aid. The trick now is to get the infastructure build so the country is not totally dependent on foreign aid.

But you are right, my question is what good can come out of cutting and running? If everyone pulled out of Afghanistan there would be no way the people could stop the Taliban from taking over.

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: The ugly side of deba

The taliban don't have to take over they already run the place with the warlords who control the record crop of opium, president Kharsi is crooked, there is no chance that we will make any change to Afghanistan in any way, and I would add that I would like to see RCS stick arround if for nothing else than good target practice, debate can get ugly and rough, grow up and join the real world.

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: The ugly side of deba

The taliban don't have to take over they already run the place with the warlords who control the record crop of opium, president Kharsi is crooked, there is no chance that we will make any change to Afghanistan in any way, and I would add that I would like to see RCS stick arround if for nothing else than good target practice, debate can get ugly and rough, grow up and join the real world.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Stick around Soldier, I think this place needs your input. You have every right to be proud of your service and to be a little prickly when people belittle the military. I too have a great respect for our people under arms, and have had for as long as I can remember. The fathers of too many of my friends were on the beaches on D-Day for me to feel any other way. Regina Rifle Regiment, Royal Winnipeg Rifles, 15th Field Regiment, Stormont Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders, 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion...

What regiment were you with? And is your son with Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry in Afghanistan? Now there's a famous and heroic group of soldiers...

 

[sanch]

The Taliban by any stretch of the imagination do not control Afghanistan. It is unlikely with a total withdrawal, which is extremely unlikely in itself, that the Taliban would ever take control of Afghanistan again. Ahmed Rashid in his book Taliban outlines the conditions that allowed for the rise of the Taliban and these same conditions no longer exist. They have no army and are largely guerilla fighters confined to areas around the Pakistan border and Kandahar. The madarasas in Pakistan that they recruited from have been mostly shut down. The refugee camps, particularly the temporary one’s, are also very minimally populated as almost 2 million refugees have returned home.

The Canadian forces are providing a very valuable humanitarian service in their peacekeeping effort. Peacekeeping broadly defined is logistical support to secure an environment that is safe for the refugees to return home to. With increased security the 2 million refuges in Pakistan may be convinced it is safe and stable enough to return home. We have to remember that the Soviet invasion and the tribal fighting that followed created a massive diaspora, millions of refugees that no one cared about.

Of course these refugees need money to survive and so they have turned to opium as a cash crop. There are still Taliban fighters in Afghanistan and so there are attacks against the government and the soldiers. But these are hopefully temporary conditions. But all Canadians should be proud of the service put in by the Canadian forces.

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: The ugly side of deba

I listened to a Canadian reporter who has been in the region for eighteen years, she said that because of the tactics used by the Americans that the general population does not trust any soldiers Canadian or otherwise, she also said that the same individual criminals and warlords who ran the country and the drug business are in the elected assembly now, she also said that there is not enough aid or reconstruction money coming in to the country and that Kharsi's influance did not extend outside of kabul, she also said that the Afghan army was very corrupt and brutal. Without a massive infusion of money and equipment and personell there will be no lasting change.