The Quebec "nation" should separate...

[Numure]

Re: RE: The Quebec "nation" should separate...

That were some great answers! Next question: does a majority of the Québecois support independence from Canada?

Since the last referendum, it stays between 40-55%. The seperatists party (The PQ), has won many elections in the past 30 years though. They've been in power for 2 terms, then usually another party gets elected, then they come back again for 2 more terms.


The PQ lost the last elections (Pretty much expected). But they will most likely won the next ones (In about 2 years).

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of the large numbers of Québecois who support the seperatist party (PQ - Parti Québecois I assume? Or Parti Québec?). But does that also mean that these people who voted for the PQ all support independence? I mean, it sounds weird, but I assume that the PQ also presents itself as a party which comes up for the rights of Québec, which could mean that not all people vote for the PQ as in wanting independence, as well wanting that Québec is treated better in the federation called Canada. So what is the number of people who have literally said "I want Québec to become independent"? And another question: does Québec as a province areally has an undermined position in Canada, financially, socially, politically speaking?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: The Quebec "nation" s

A lot more Quebec residents vote for the Parti Quebecois than support separation, Rick. They are a valid political party that leans to left (much like the New Democrats policy-wise) and have done a lot for the province.

The last referdum it was decided, by a narrow margin, that Quebec would stay in Canada. There were some serious reservations expressed about the wording of the question and it is generally felt more Quebecois would have voted to stay in Canada if the wording was more clear. I don't believe that to be so...the issue was so highly publicised that anybody with a television or radio could have voted without reading the question.

Something that has not been properly addressed in Quebec or the rest of Canada is exactly what separation would mean. Would all of Quebec separate or would parts that wanted to remain in Canada have that right? What would become of federal crown lands? How would it impact native issues? Would Quebec be required to take a percentage of Canada's debt with it? How would that percentage be calculated? Would passports be required between Quebec and Canada? What about trade between Quebec and Canada? Would Quebec citizens be allowed to use Canadian passports? What about out money?

These are all contentious issues and nobody on either side seems interested in discussing them openly and frankly so that everybody...inside and outside of Quebec...can make an informed decision.

It is a huge failing of politicians on both sides of the issue and that failing is causing at least as many problems as the issue itself.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: The Quebec "nation" should separate...

Interesting. I wasn't aware of the large numbers of Québecois who support the seperatist party (PQ - Parti Québecois I assume? Or Parti Québec?). But does that also mean that these people who voted for the PQ all support independence? I mean, it sounds weird, but I assume that the PQ also presents itself as a party which comes up for the rights of Québec, which could mean that not all people vote for the PQ as in wanting independence, as well wanting that Québec is treated better in the federation called Canada. So what is the number of people who have literally said "I want Québec to become independent"? And another question: does Québec as a province areally has an undermined position in Canada, financially, socially, politically speaking?

Last referendum, 49% said yes. That was 1995. Probably the only fact that could tell you how much people have said "I want an independant Québec".

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: The Quebec "nation" s

A lot more Quebec residents vote for the Parti Quebecois than support separation, Rick. They are a valid political party that leans to left (much like the New Democrats policy-wise) and have done a lot for the province.

The last referdum it was decided, by a narrow margin, that Quebec would stay in Canada. There were some serious reservations expressed about the wording of the question and it is generally felt more Quebecois would have voted to stay in Canada if the wording was more clear. I don't believe that to be so...the issue was so highly publicised that anybody with a television or radio could have voted without reading the question.

Something that has not been properly addressed in Quebec or the rest of Canada is exactly what separation would mean. Would all of Quebec separate or would parts that wanted to remain in Canada have that right? What would become of federal crown lands? How would it impact native issues? Would Quebec be required to take a percentage of Canada's debt with it? How would that percentage be calculated? Would passports be required between Quebec and Canada? What about trade between Quebec and Canada? Would Quebec citizens be allowed to use Canadian passports? What about out money?

These are all contentious issues and nobody on either side seems interested in discussing them openly and frankly so that everybody...inside and outside of Quebec...can make an informed decision.

It is a huge failing of politicians on both sides of the issue and that failing is causing at least as many problems as the issue itself.

Because before addressing does, the party needs a mandate from the people. That is why the question, in each referendum, was asking if the people gave that mandate to the goverment. The mandate to negotiate the seperation of our province. All does questions, would be answered after. It has been quite clear that becoming independant, resolving every issue around it, would take at least 2 years. It wouldnt be the next day after a succesful referendum.

 

[Numure]

And might I note, it took 3 referendums before newfoundland joined Canada. And even when they did, the yes side only won with 51% I believe? It wasnt part of Newfoundland that joined, but all of it.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: The Quebec "nation" s

There are still plenty of people in Newfoundland that feel joining Canada was a bad idea, Numure. That's after 55 years.

I really do think that at least some issues should be clarified before the next referendum takes place. Native issues are a major problem...can you imagine Oka without the presence of the Canadian forces? It very likely would have turned into a blood bath.

Natural resources are a major issue too. That ties right back into native issues...a lot of proposed projects are on disputed land, the money and jobs created by those projects could allow for ongoing native self-determination, and their treaties are with the Canadian government. Quebec governments, PQ and Liberal, have been less than fair and honest with the natives, especially when money is at stake.

Sovereignty association is another major issue. There is a lot of feeling in English Canada that if you go, then you go. No sharing passports or money. Trade deals to be negotiated as they would be with any other sovereign nation. The PQ tend to take sovereignty association as a given, but that is simply not the case...especially in a government that would no longer have any representatives from Quebec.

If you want people to make an informed decision, then the stances of both sides need to clearly understood. Some things are on the table for later negotiation and others aren't. Still others, like Native issues, will be decided by people not as yet heard from in any significant way. Without the knowledge of which is which nobody can make a truly informed decision. Just saying that it can all be negotiated later is not good enough.

 

[Andem]

To clarify what the people of Quebec really want, you have to explore the mentality and some of the brainwash which the separatists throw down the throats of (especially) the people in rural areas who are not exactly exposed to the rest of Canada.

Secondly, to know what Quebecois really want, you also have to ask the question plain and simple. Not ask them if they would like some things sovereign and other things still attached to Canada. The last referendum would not have gotten more than 30% of the vote if you asked the question upfront. It was all a play on words.

A majority of "separatists" that I've met aren't exactly the most political type of people who certainly don't have any answers when it comes to economic reform and International agreements. Any high numbers presented as separatists are usually inflated or taken at high points when there's been a scandal in the federal government (like sponsorship).

 

[Andem]

Just wanted to add:

I do not support monitary or social unions with Québec should the province ever get enough "Oui" votes for separation.

I also believe that if there was a separation between the province and the country that there would be a mass exodus of people from (especially) Montréal. I don't think Montréal could sustain it's self with the amount of people who I know personally that would get up and move to (these are not my words) Toronto. I kind of see it as an Ostberlin/Westberlin type of situation. Who is going to stay on the side which has an economy going bankrupt? Who obviously didn't make the right choice for the people?

There are many outstanding questions on how Quebec would sustain it's self and how it would deal with it's share of the federal debt.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

How many people are currently living in Québec who are not "French" (or should I say Québecois? Having troubles with the definition)? Are they likely to leave Québec if it becomes an independent country? And what about the Canadian provinces of New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia? They will be cut off from the rest of Canada right (OK there is a line which runs by Newfoundland)? And what about the fact the entrance of the St. Lawrence will be in the hands of Québec?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: The Quebec "nation" s

All good questions, Rick. A lot of Anglophones would certainly move and some offices would undoubtedly disappear, but I think the majority of that exodus is over now.

The questions about the Maritimes and the St Lawrence are perfect examples of why things need to be discussed more. Treaties between the US and Canada governing the St. Lawrence seaway and the Great Lakes would have to be renegotiated to include a third party. Given the USA's present mood over water rights and trade and security issues, that's a whole other can of worms than it used to be. Certainly to try to renegotiate such a thing with the Bush administration would be a bad idea.

 

[Andem]

Re: RE: The Quebec "nation" s

All good questions, Rick. A lot of Anglophones would certainly move and some offices would undoubtedly disappear, but I think the majority of that exodus is over now.

I don't think the exodus is even close to over. Having lived in Montréal, I know a very large amount of people who would move if Québec separated. Thanks to the separatist movement, Montréal will only see more and more empty shop windows and abandoned buildings.

You might have thought that the amount of people moving out of Quebec in the last 10 years is a lot, but honestly, you have not seen anything yet.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: The Quebec "nation" s

All good questions, Rick. A lot of Anglophones would certainly move and some offices would undoubtedly disappear, but I think the majority of that exodus is over now.

I don't think the exodus is even close to over. Having lived in Montréal, I know a very large amount of people who would move if Québec separated. Thanks to the separatist movement, Montréal will only see more and more empty shop windows and abandoned buildings.

You might have thought that the amount of people moving out of Quebec in the last 10 years is a lot, but honestly, you have not seen anything yet.

I've lived my hole life and montreal, and theirs alot more seperatist then you might imagine. The exodus is long over, and then ones still here will most likely stay here, as long as their standard of living does decrease. Same with corporations... Do you really think compagnies, will live a profit behind? Thats ridiculous.

As for our economy, won't suffer that much. Parizeau is the greatest economist of this province, and he was a leader of the PQ. La Caisse Desjardin, the biggest private investement compagny of Québec, is known for its seperatist stance. Sure, some will move. But they will be replace by another, that im quite sure.

We would own the entrance to the saint-lawrence, this full control over the flow of goods threw it. It would be in the intrest of both Canada and the US to negotiate with a new goverment.

Natives, quite the question indeed. The use of the military in Oka was over kill. The police could of easily handled it. Québec goverments have somewhat, better relationships with all Natives if you exclude the Mohawks. The montagnais here (Chicoutimi, moved not so long ago) live quite well. They have their own schools, payed for by the provincial goverment. It can be seen with other tribes as well. Its the Mohawks that are the problem. They refuse to learn french, and continue to cause trouble. By refusing to adapt, they are causing their own downfall. And thus, thats why they are one of the poorest indian Nations in Québec. But afterall, the Natives are under federal juristiction. And to even negotiate with the Natives, Québec has to fight with Ottawa. As of last election, the BQ count a Native in their parlement ranks. A Montagnais, from the Lac StJean area.

The french population counts for 82% of total. Anglophones little more then 11%, and the rest are allophones.

 

[montreal_citizen]

Someone wrote this????
"Wanna know from where the majority of immigrants to Québec come from? France. And its growing each year. Thousands and Thousands of French citizens moving to join "Les cousins Québécois".
What? Are you delusional? The immigrants coming to Quebec are from third world countries. Have you not noticed a rise in Indian, Pakistan, Haitian, etc. newly-arrived?
You're right, maybe you shouldn't speak when you don't know what you're talking about. Europeans are doing well in Europe, including France. They don't need to come to the Western World anymore.

 

[montreal_citizen]

Someone wrote this????
"Wanna know from where the majority of immigrants to Québec come from? France. And its growing each year. Thousands and Thousands of French citizens moving to join "Les cousins Québécois".
What? Are you delusional? The immigrants coming to Quebec are from third world countries. Have you not noticed a rise in Indian, Pakistan, Haitian, etc. newly-arrived?
You're right, maybe you shouldn't speak when you don't know what you're talking about. Europeans are doing well in Europe, including France. They don't need to come to the Western World anymore.

 

[montreal_citizen]

Someone wrote this????
"Wanna know from where the majority of immigrants to Québec come from? France. And its growing each year. Thousands and Thousands of French citizens moving to join "Les cousins Québécois".
What? Are you delusional? The immigrants coming to Quebec are from third world countries. Have you not noticed a rise in Indian, Pakistan, Haitian, etc. newly-arrived?
You're right, maybe you shouldn't speak when you don't know what you're talking about. Europeans are doing well in Europe, including France. They don't need to come to the Western World anymore.

 

[Numure]

Someone wrote this????
"Wanna know from where the majority of immigrants to Québec come from? France. And its growing each year. Thousands and Thousands of French citizens moving to join "Les cousins Québécois".
What? Are you delusional? The immigrants coming to Quebec are from third world countries. Have you not noticed a rise in Indian, Pakistan, Haitian, etc. newly-arrived?
You're right, maybe you shouldn't speak when you don't know what you're talking about. Europeans are doing well in Europe, including France. They don't need to come to the Western World anymore.

Look at the statistique for the last 4 years. The fastest growing immigrant culture comming here, is from France. Mostly French jewish and muslims avoiding the past years of hates towards their community. They've choosen Québec as new grounds.

 

[Andem]

There are a lot of immigrants to Quebec who come from the Third World.. mostly former French colonies in Africa, especially a lot of cab drivers in Montreal. Don't forget the immigrants en mass who come from Haiti.

I'm also aware that a lot of French immigrants who come to Quebec usually don't stay long... 3-4 years at maximum (in a lot of cases).

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: The Quebec "nation" should separate...

There are a lot of immigrants to Quebec who come from the Third World.. mostly former French colonies in Africa, especially a lot of cab drivers in Montreal.

I'm also aware that a lot of French immigrants who come to Quebec usually don't stay long... 3-4 years at maximum (in a lot of cases).

You're right for both But in the past few years, more and more are moving from france because of Racial tensions.

 

[Machjo]

Numure said, about the Mohawks...

"Natives, quite the question indeed. The use of the military in Oka was over kill. The police could of easily handled it. Québec goverments have somewhat, better relationships with all Natives if you exclude the Mohawks. The montagnais here (Chicoutimi, moved not so long ago) live quite well. They have their own schools, payed for by the provincial goverment. It can be seen with other tribes as well. Its the Mohawks that are the problem. They refuse to learn french, and continue to cause trouble. By refusing to adapt, they are causing their own downfall. And thus, thats why they are one of the poorest indian Nations in Québec. But afterall, the Natives are under federal juristiction. And to even negotiate with the Natives, Québec has to fight with Ottawa. As of last election, the BQ count a Native in their parlement ranks. A Montagnais, from the Lac StJean area."

My questin then, is, what right, morally or ethically, has an ex-colonial people got to force its language on the original inhabitants of the continent. I'm sorry, but that stinks of colonialism. "It's the Mohawks that are the problem." I'd say it's the 'white man', not the Mohawks, who is the problem. And for them to be poor because they refuse to learn French (assuming that's the reason) is pure abuse of power by the colonizers of their territory. Just as many in Quebec want to learn English for business reasons, so it's the same with the Mohawks. And just as teh Quebecois want to preserve their language, so it's the same with the Mohawks. What moral right have the Quebec people got to sacrifice the native language of the Mohawks in order to increase the number of French speakers on the continent. Remember, both English and French are foreign to the American continent, both being European, not American, languages, lest we forget. That's just another reason I'd be in favour of an easy language to be adopted at the federal (or should Quebec separate) national level, so that the English speakers can learn their language, the French speakers, theirs, and the natives could finally regain at least some of their rights back, with everyone simply learning the common language as a second language, much like what is done in Indonesia.