The nature of free will...

[s_lone]

Re: RE: The nature of free will...

most of those cathedrals were constructed under serfdom. those people built the cathedrals because they needed the money, same as people clean toilets now

My point is about creativity, not about needs like eating, sleeping and cleaning.

Is creativity possible without free will?

If we are all automated "robots", why do we write symphonies and do art movies? How do you explain our need to find and create beauty?

Without free will, our actions are either entirely predictable (theoretically) or the result of pure chaos (if such a thing truly exists...)... Or both...

Music that humans like Bach, Mozart and Beethoven wrote is obviously NOT the result of chaos. It would be foolish to think that Beethoven's 9th symphony is just a random phenomenon of the universe... Especially if you know about Beethoven's life! It was a life time's achievement in which a WHOLE LOT of thinking was put into...

Is this possible without free will?

 

[s_lone]

Re: RE: The nature of free will...

We are all mere collections of chemical reactions creating outcomes that are determined by the physical forces around us. Having self determination means only that sometimes certain chemical reactions and interactions preempt others leading to different outcomes.

So, in summary, no, I am not responsible for any of my actions.

You never took any important decisions in your life?

 

[fuzzylogix]

Chaos reigns.

Beethoven's symphonies are a prime example of chaos which our chaotic brains then perceive as brilliance.

The great mystery of life is exactly that. What makes all these chemical reactions SEEM to be a reality.

 

[s_lone]

Your logic seems fuzzy to me...

If you can't aknowledge the presence of structure and order in our universe we are obviously not on the same wavelength...

If you perceive Beethoven's 9th as chaos you also obviously don't know much about music...

 

[tamarin]

This thread is going nowhere. Free will doesn't exist. It's a fantasy. Those who insist on practising it will do so at our leisure in our prisons.

 

[fuzzylogix]

That is not what I said. I said that I ( and many other people ) PERCEIVE Beethoven's 9th, 5th, 3rd etc as brilliant, but WHY I perceive it as brilliant is a difficult concept. How and WHY do our brains convert the chaotic sequence of auditory stimuli into chemical reactions that produce a feeling of ecstasy via production of endorphins? It is all a sequence of chemical reactions by which our neurons function.

Choices in the brain are all chemical reactions. Your question I think, is: Can we independently direct our chemical reactions to occur, or are they random chemical reactions resulting in response to external stimuli?

 

[tamarin]

This must be the first case on record where an argument on free will has been co-opted by clinicians.

 

[fuzzylogix]

Not at all.. In fact, this area of discussion is a major topic in many law departments, bioscience and bioethics departments... eg

www.bioethics.uu.se/downloads/abstract_evers.html

 

[s_lone]

Re: RE: The nature of free will...

That is not what I said. I said that I ( and many other people ) PERCEIVE Beethoven's 9th, 5th, 3rd etc as brilliant, but WHY I perceive it as brilliant is a difficult concept. How and WHY do our brains convert the chaotic sequence of auditory stimuli into chemical reactions that produce a feeling of ecstasy via production of endorphins? It is all a sequence of chemical reactions by which our neurons function.

Choices in the brain are all chemical reactions. Your question I think, is: Can we independently direct our chemical reactions to occur, or are they random chemical reactions resulting in response to external stimuli?

Sorry if I implied you couldn't appreciate the beauty of Beethoven's music...
What we fundamentally disagree on is the nature of the symphony itself. From your point of view, chaos rules, and Beethoven had no form of free will... So the symphony is a "chaotic sequence of auditory stimuli"...

But it's obvious to me that Beethoven's symphonies are NOT a chaotic sequence of auditory stimuli, in the same way the programming codes of the computer softwares you are using right now are not chaotic,but rather highly structured in order to achieve a task.

I believe in some form of chaos but not ONLY chaos. There is also order and structure (the symphonies are crammed with it). Science would not work if there was only chaos. Chaos is an absence of structure and science examines how the universe works... how it is structured.

---

To answer your question, I tend to believe that the brain has the capacity to influence itself. In better words, I believe the MIND has the power to influence the chemical reactions happening in the brain.[/i]

 

[s_lone]

Re: RE: The nature of free will...

This thread is going nowhere. Free will doesn't exist. It's a fantasy. Those who insist on practising it will do so at our leisure in our prisons.

This thread won't go anywhere if you don't give arguments to support your opinion...

 

[tamarin]

Beethoven was a genius and his source of inspiration of a higher order than his contemporaries. Inspiration has no attachment to free will.

 

[fuzzylogix]

Re: RE: The nature of free will...

That is not what I said. I said that I ( and many other people ) PERCEIVE Beethoven's 9th, 5th, 3rd etc as brilliant, but WHY I perceive it as brilliant is a difficult concept. How and WHY do our brains convert the chaotic sequence of auditory stimuli into chemical reactions that produce a feeling of ecstasy via production of endorphins? It is all a sequence of chemical reactions by which our neurons function.

Choices in the brain are all chemical reactions. Your question I think, is: Can we independently direct our chemical reactions to occur, or are they random chemical reactions resulting in response to external stimuli?

Sorry if I implied you couldn't appreciate the beauty of Beethoven's music...
What we fundamentally disagree on is the nature of the symphony itself. From your point of view, chaos rules, and Beethoven had no form of free will... So the symphony is a "chaotic sequence of auditory stimuli"...

But it's obvious to me that Beethoven's symphonies are NOT a chaotic sequence of auditory stimuli, in the same way the programming codes of the computer softwares you are using right now are not chaotic,but rather highly structured in order to achieve a task.

I believe in some form of chaos but not ONLY chaos. There is also order and structure (the symphonies are crammed with it). Science would not work if there was only chaos. Chaos is an absence of structure and science examines how the universe works... how it is structured.

---

To answer your question, I tend to believe that the brain has the capacity to influence itself. In other words, I believe the mind has the power to influence the chemical reactions happening in the brain.

Actually, I am playing the devil's advocate here. I too, think or rather hope that we are influencing the chemical reactions in the brain. I hope, because otherwise life would be pointless if it was all just a random response to external forces, no more steered than a rock pulled down a mountain by gravity.

 

[s_lone]

Well we always need a devil's advocate...

I freely admit my belief in free will... But I realize it is a belief... I don't know free will exists as a fact. But the absence of free will would indeed seem totally pointless...

The best way for me to understand this problem is with the image of someone swimming in a river. The river's current is the huge flow of determinisms that affect us, but we nonetheless have the power to swim in any direction we choose to... with or against the current...

 

[fuzzylogix]

May none of us be swept downstream....

unless of course, we WANT to be....

 

[hermanntrude]

creativity has a tendancy to happen spontaneously when it's quashed. In places where people's freedom is restricted and expression is discouraged or even forbidden, people will even risk their lives to express themselves. Now I don't claim to know the source of that creativity. As fuzzylogix said, it's all a result of chemical reactions. This is proven to be true, but maybe doesnt preclude the existance of free will.

The fact is i don't know if i have free will...

 

[Cosmo]

Re: RE: The nature of free will...

I freely admit my belief in free will... But I realize it is a belief... I don't know free will exists as a fact. But the absence of free will would indeed seem totally pointless...

The best way for me to understand this problem is with the image of someone swimming in a river. The river's current is the huge flow of determinisms that affect us, but we nonetheless have the power to swim in any direction we choose to... with or against the current...

(Cracks knuckles and wiggles fingers over keyboard ... bwahahahaha ... it is my will to involve myself here! )

s_lone ... I love the analogy of the river. Well put. Have you read Richard Bach's "Illusions"? Your comment reminds me of the preface to that gem.

I vividly recall my first debate about free will. My grade 12 English teacher (whom I was madly in love with and spent hours sitting on his couch at his home listening to his wisdom!) and I got into a debate about it. He said there was no free will. I said there was. I was 17 years old, vehemently learning to stretch my independence muscles at the time.

Here I sit 30 years later and my feelings have not changed. Either I haven't got past that teenage rebellion stage or I have learned something along the way to support the concept of free will.

I maintain that we do, indeed, have free will. Whether we choose to exercise it or not dictates our path through the world. Yes, too much free will and you end up in a small cell in a prison but a dash of it and you end up with Mondrian and Picasso and Bosch paintings. Your point about creativity, s_lone, is one I agree with absolutely.

The stand my old teacher took was that because we have laws and caveats all around us, and that those restricted free will. My position was that those were illusionary boundaries and if we were willing to accept the consequences of our actions, we could do anything we chose to do.

I still maintain that. I'm of the school that free will is necessary for moral responsibility, for creativity and for fulfillment. These are the things that set us apart from the rest of the mammals, imho. We have a choice and that defines us. The consequences of our choices affect our decisions, but the decisions themselves are of our will.

Most excellent topic, s_lone!

 

[jimmoyer]

Does masturbation come under the category
of Free Will ?

Excercising the right of Entropy on all discussions
as mentioned in another thread.

 

[hermanntrude]

masturbation is impossible to avoid. therefore done under duress... if only the duress of your own hormones

 

[jimmoyer]

Is not then Free Will a duress of some sort ?

 

[hermanntrude]

i expect so, except when it isnt