The Nature of Conspiracy --- how does it exist ?

[jimmoyer]

What is the nature of conspiracy ?

What gives rise to this question is the assertion that 9/11 was an American conspiracy.

To me, such an accusation, comes close to the one you hear about the Holocaust being zionist propaganda to elicit mercy for the Jews.

These accusations are righteously fired about.

And yet when you consider that a conspiracy can only live in secret and yet you know any bureaucracy or large numbers of people inevitably can't keep a secret.

Every leader knows this about their own government.

The people who easily fire off these accusations, the people who think only they own the truth, don't seem to consider the mechanics of the impossible thing they blithely pose.

It takes a lot of work, and it takes a lot of people and therein always lies the seeds of defeat for any conspiracy.

The only rush to judgement I think has the odds of almost always being true is the ineptitude of bureaucracy, the built-in obstacles of turf warfare in bureaucracy, the jealousies, the not seeing the forest for the one tree in front of them as they rush to do the daily paper pushing.

 

[I think not]

I think the nature of conspiracy has alot to do with seeking the truth. What is important is that we keep our minds open to the truth.

For example, I have no doubt in my mind that 9/11 was an act of terrorism. However, I'm not buying the Warren Commission on the JFK assassination. THAT to me has many many holes.

But I do not rush to assume since I don't believe one event I will not believe ALL events.

We are all human, we have emotions and sometimes what we hear do not satisfy those emotions. Emotions and perceptions matter.

When you hate all that is US, you can't make the break to see beyond it.

When you live in the US you would hate to admit things like these are possible.

This is the nature of human beings, but like I said, we should always be open to the truth.

Oddly enough, almost ALL consipracy theories are based in the US and almost all of them have derived from the US. Perhaps we're not the robots people think we are.

 

[jimmoyer]

I think we're getting a graducate education in hypocrisy, a much more advanced course syllabus than most of the righteous world.

 

[mps]

You've heard about Operation:Northwoods right? If not, it was a model drawn up in the sixties to incite public outcry against Cuba and get them behind any ensuing war. Among other things, it proposed bombing certain targets and blaming it on Cuba, and more shockingly, downing a plane of American students and blaming it on Cuba.

Operation:Northwoods never happened.

A few decades later, someone seems to have dusted off an old copy of it, and replaced the word Cuba with the word al-Queda. Notice though that I used the word "seems", meaning that there's no hard evidence that the 9/11 attacks are merely an updated version of Operation:Northwoods, just speculation.

That, among other things, might be what gives rise to conspiracy.

 

[I think not]

You've heard about Operation:Northwoods right? If not, it was a model drawn up in the sixties to incite public outcry against Cuba and get them behind any ensuing war. Among other things, it proposed bombing certain targets and blaming it on Cuba, and more shockingly, downing a plane of American students and blaming it on Cuba.

Operation:Northwoods never happened.

A few decades later, someone seems to have dusted off an old copy of it, and replaced the word Cuba with the word al-Queda. Notice though that I used the word "seems", meaning that there's no hard evidence that the 9/11 attacks are merely an updated version of Operation:Northwoods, just speculation.

That, among other things, might be what gives rise to conspiracy.

Yes, Operation Northwoods was an idea by a general (which name I forget at the moment). Robert McNamara, threw it out along with President Kennedy. And the general "resigned" a few weeks later.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

One view of conspiracy theories , and their founding might be a lack of complete information. When information is with held due to ....let's say ....security reasons....or simply unavailable .the human mind is very creative , and has a tendancy to fill in the gaps.

the fact that "conspiracy " theories have the element of intrique to them ......makes them "attractive."

How much merit and substance they have is always of question.

What makes them a tad attractive to entertain.....is that there is usually an element of fact/truth in them.

just some idle thoughts on this.

 

[jimmoyer]

The Cold War was a good war, one of the best.

But out of it grew so much wrong.

And the wrong and the right of what we did to fight the communist monolith is still reverberating today.

The wrongs are of the nature that when you fight, you become that which you fight.

 

[I think not]

One view of conspiracy theories , and their founding might be a lack of complete information. When information is with held due to ....let's say ....security reasons....or simply unavailable .the human mind is very creative , and has a tendancy to fill in the gaps.

the fact that "conspiracy " theories have the element of intrique to them ......makes them "attractive."

How much merit and substance they have is always of question.

What makes them a tad attractive to entertain.....is that there is usually an element of fact/truth in them.

just some idle thoughts on this.

Those are good points. Well said.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

This is a hell of a long read, but may be worth it...

...or maybe not... 8O

I think, I think not, that you will definitely find the section on 9/11 interesting...:wink:

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Thanks for the link. Absolutely fascinating stuff.

"the webs "we" weave" fftheair:

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Yeah...I have a little trouble swallowing the whole Rothschild/NWO/Illuminati angle...but most of the rest made a hell of a lot of sense...

 

[no1important]

RE: The Nature of Conspir

Well its no secret governments lie (like "W") and hide info from the public then go to any means to cover it up. People are not stupid like governments think. The truth always comes out.

 

[Toro]

RE: The Nature of Conspir

99 out of 100 conspiracy theories are false. Its much more intriguing and exciting to believe in this stuff but its almost never true. Usually the simplest or the most obvious answer is the correct one. And the more people allegedly involved in a conspiracy, the less likely it to be true.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Well its no secret governments lie (like "W") and hide info from the public then go to any means to cover it up.

indeed. and this is one of the main....(IMV) cause of conspiracy theories to evolve in the first place. Misinformation .disinformation,selective information is a breeding ground for "conspiracy theories "

If the facts of a situation are presented in a clear concise manner to the public.....the public is less inclined to delve into suspicions ......and follow that up with Conspiracy theories. (unless some are so out of touch with reality , (psychotic) that they see conspiracy theories in everything.)

 

[Ocean Breeze]

99 out of 100 conspiracy theories are false.

where did you get this "statistic"???

and are they totally false as in fabrications of fantasy.....??

 

[Toro]

99 out of 100 conspiracy theories are false.

where did you get this "statistic"???

and are they totally false as in fabrications of fantasy.....??

Prove my statistic otherwise. :wink: Actually, my point is that the central tenant of almost all conspiracies are false. A simple example is JFK. There are all sorts of conspiracy theories about his assassination. One of them might - might - be correct, which means, by definition, the rest are incorrect.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

The thing is though, that with the JFK theories, and with the 9/11 theories, there are several theories that share similarities with one another...so certain aspects may be based upon false assumptions, but others hold true, and it is these that need to be expanded upon...conspiracy theories are never really a finished product, otherwise the ICC would surely have its hand full...

Just as the Warren Commission was a book of lies, so to the 9/11 Commission Report has not been able to hold up to the intense scrutiny of the "conspiracy theorists"...

 

[Toro]

The thing is though, that with the JFK theories, and with the 9/11 theories, there are several theories that share similarities with one another...so certain aspects may be based upon false assumptions, but others hold true, and it is these that need to be expanded upon...conspiracy theories are never really a finished product, otherwise the ICC would surely have its hand full...

Just as the Warren Commission was a book of lies, so to the 9/11 Commission Report has not been able to hold up to the intense scrutiny of the "conspiracy theorists"...

Well, for sure conspiracy theories never die. They don't have to. They can continue on a wing and a prayer because they can never be disproven. "Prove that X didn't have a secret meeting with Y when he as at Z." The circles can be run around when it is disproven; "Not possible. X couldn't have met with Y because he was in U." "Well he was in U to meet with V, who knows Y and was setting up the secret meeting." Etc., etc. That's the nature of conspiracy theories. Its allegedly shadowy figures doing nefarious things that can never really be proven or disproven. Then the possibilities explode logrithmically in the conspiracists' minds when one of these shadowy events - which no one usually ever predicts - turns out to be true. The human mind knows no limits. Plus its fun and keeps us occupied and intrigued. Oh, and some people make a living and even get rich peddling the theories.

Here's some gist for the mill

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Here's some gist for the mill

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y

I actually debunked this debunking here some time back...

Apparently, the Research Editor of Popular Mechanics, Ben Chertoff, is a first cousin of this guy.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=66176

 

[peapod]

You know george "always" makes sense to me, as does toby the talking horse. 8)

Carlin:
People make fun of anyone who believes in conspiracy now, that there might actually be powerful people with money who occasionally have plans they make that they don't tell anybody about. It's absurd not to believe they do. They do-they do it all the time. And a lot of them don't need meetings: They all went to the same schools, they belong to the same clubs, they buy the same stocks, they have the same interests, they play golf in the same place, they all want the same outcome. They don't have to have a meeting all the time. They know if somebody ought to be dead, that person will be f***ing dead.


I believe in those meetings. I believe these things take place, and I think it's very interesting that believing in conspiracies has now been made to look ridiculous, like you're a kook. You're laughed away. The limits of debate are chosen before the debate even begins. Severe right wing, severe left wing-you will not be on Nightline. Noam Chomsky can't get on Nightline, Howard Zinn, the socialist historian, these people's opinions are not asked. And the stranger people on the right don't get on. So the channel of debate is already decided, and I honestly believe they decide on this presidency shit.

Clinton had no money at all until he went to the Bilderberger conference in Germany and suddenly he had $50 million at his disposal. The business community decided, "He's our guy-he's gonna pull the Democrats toward the center." I've said, when fascism comes to this country, it won't be with jack-boots, it will be with these sneakers with lights on them-the happy button, the smiley button on their shirt, and it will be a friendly guy shaking hands. It will not be this evil thing fascism is made to be from newsreels. It's already here; this is the pre-existing fascist state.

If you look at how many individual rights we have had in the past, as much as 25 years ago, and then you'd look down that list and see how many of them are gone, legally, through the Supreme Court-it is frightening. If you care about these things, it's frightening. I personally don't give a shit, because it's all part of the dance. But I know what's happening, and I'm gonna document them. I'm gonna find them, and I'm gonna document them. They can search your car if they don't like the color of your eyes. They can stop you if they think you just took a wrong turn, and now they can look in your trunk if they think maybe you have something on your breath. All of this kind of shit.

And we spy on each other. We're nothing but rats and squealers now, spying on each other. "1-800-How-am-I-driving?" Call in now, hotline, tip line. They're not tipsters-it's the rats and fucking squealer hotline that you're calling. Spying on your kids, kids turning in parents for a little bit of pot, and employers listening to your phone calls and reading your email. All this shit is just fucking horrifying... if you care. I don't care.