The legality of hosting US AWOL soldiers in Canada?

Mooseskin Johnny

Electoral Member
Dec 23, 2004
134
0
16
BC
Paranoid Dot Calm said:
If I were an American ....
There is no way that the American justice system can handle thousands of arrests and convictions without it bankrupting their system.

That's what put an end to the draft during Vietnam. By about 1968, there were thousands of draft dodgers in the San Francisco area. The courts were backed up for about three years.

Unfortunately, Calm, you need a draft to generate a resistance to the draft. Wait awile; Bush will bring it back.
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
4,125
0
36
57
Vancouver
members.shaw.ca
Unfortunately, Calm, you need a draft to generate a resistance to the draft. Wait awile; Bush will bring it back.

I am surprised he never did yet. But he will wait until after inaguration or wait until a "flimsey" excuse comes about to do it.

plus *cough, cough* was not one of his election promises that he was not going to *cough* bring back the draft? He does not want to be seen as breaking a promise but he will come up with a life and death excuse(or lie) to re-instate the draft.
 

Paranoid Dot Calm

Council Member
Jul 6, 2004
1,142
0
36
Hide-Away Lane, Toronto
These Americans asking for refugee status are just abusing our system because they are too afraid to challenge and abuse their system of government.

I resent anyone coming to our country with a refusal to carry out the terms of a contract they signed with the military.
They are not refugees and they are not needy.
They are simply self-centered cowards!

I know there is no draft as yet. These guys are running away from a signed contract.

Before they attempt to change our refugee laws .... I suggest they stay home and change the laws in their own country.
They have no excuse.
If they were to wait for the draft, thousands more will be killed before it is stopped. Now is the time to act prior the implementation of the draft.

I would admire them if they just sat outside the recruiting station and subjected themselves to arrest.

As it is now .... they are weasels.
Not only do they refuse to serve .... they also refuse to participate in any action which might help end the war. For that I can not forgive them.

They are asking us for sympathy when they have none for their own countrymen who are now fighting. Those soldiers in Iraq right now would hope that those Americans in communities across the land protest to bring those in Iraq back home safely.
No .... Instead they run to Canada and leave the dirty work of protests to some other poor slob.

No class at all!

Calm
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: The legality of hosti

Reverend Blair said:
For Machjo's original question though...

Canada has signed a couple of international agreements saying that we will accept, as refugees, soldiers fleeing illegal wars. This has never been tested in Canada up until now. We have taken some soldiers in from wars that the entire Security Council condemned, but there was no challenge as to whether they could stay or not.

Thank you for the response, Reverend Blair. So does this mean that Canada has an obligation, under international law, to accept US refugee soldiers in this case? By the way, pardon my ignorance in tis case, but could you please refer me to the original agreements on the internet in English, sinse I'd love to see them for myself.

Honestly I'm not concerned right now whether or not it is legal according to Canadian or British law, sinse even if it isn't, that can easily be changed with a simple vote in Parliament, and that would be an internal issue anyway. My concern is not with the Canadian or British laws and courts, but rather with the UN and the Hague. What have they got to say about it? After all, if Canada is keeping US soldiers ILLEGALLY on the grounds that the US is fighting an ILLEGAL war, you can see that Canada would lose the moral ground there and look like a hypocrite, and that's why I'm so concerned about ensuring that if we do keep US soldiers in Canada, that it is well within the bounds of international law so as to maintain consistency, credibility, and the moral high ground over the US, and show that it is setting an example in abiding by international law. After all, if Canada ignores internaitonal law as it pleases, then certainly the US can do likewise, and that would be a big concern to me.

So thanks for the help. :D
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
A few other points.

Some on this thread brough tup the issue of conscientious objectors. I'm not aware of any internaitonal law which defends conscientious objectors, since such objection is by definition a challenge to the laws of the body politic, and as far as I know, conscientious objection would be illegal in any nation, including Canada. So to use conscientious objection as a defense will certainly fall on deaf ears in canada, as it ought to.

The other issue brought up was that if Canada accepts refugee soldiers on the grounds that the war is illegal, then that would have to apply to soldiers from Britain and Sudan as well. Well, as Reverend Blair mentionned, if international law and agreements Canada has signed do in fact require Canada to accept soldiers fleeing from illegal wars, then Canada ought to do the honourable thing and either abide by its agreements or sign off them, either way. But the point is, Canada must set an example by respecting contracts, agreements and international law. If it's not going to abide by its agreements, then it should not be so hypocritical as to sign them, and make it clear that it is has decided to abrogate such agreements. After all, the law ought to be above politics (i.e, apolitical). Canada can't sudden;y accept US refugees because it's got an ani-American streak, yt turn away British and Sudanese refugees because it doesn't concern us. Certainly the US will see through such hypocricy. So if Canada does indeed have such internaitonal obligations, then by all means accept the US refugees alongside their British and Sudanese counterparts.
 

Rick van Opbergen

House Member
Sep 16, 2004
4,080
0
36
The Netherlands
www.google.com
Paranoid I tend to agree with you: the recruits signed a contract to be part of the US army. If they do not agree with the war and the fighting going in Iraq (what I can imagine), they should make a voice within the US society, and not flee their country to Canada.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Thank you for the response, Reverend Blair. So does this mean that Canada has an obligation, under international law, to accept US refugee soldiers in this case? By the way, pardon my ignorance in tis case, but could you please refer me to the original agreements on the internet in English, sinse I'd love to see them for myself.

They are clauses in various treaties available at the UN, I don't have them bookmarked and I don't want to search them out again (I'm lazy). I got to them mostly through the information at these sites, which I do have bookmarked:

http://www.peacehost.net/ssn/sanctuary.htm

http://www.ishr.ch/about ISHR/Information/Manuals/refugee.htm

http://www.un-ngls.org/documents/publications.en/ngls.handbook/a19unhcr.htm

http://www.jeremyhinzman.net/

http://www.join-snafu.org/resisting.htm

All of the agreements are available on the UN site if you care to pore through hundreds of links and thousands of pages though.

Some on this thread brough tup the issue of conscientious objectors. I'm not aware of any internaitonal law which defends conscientious objectors, since such objection is by definition a challenge to the laws of the body politic, and as far as I know, conscientious objection would be illegal in any nation, including Canada. So to use conscientious objection as a defense will certainly fall on deaf ears in canada, as it ought to.

Most countries, including the United States, offer some form conscientious objector status either within the military or in a parallel civilian system.

Rick and Calm:
I don't care if they signed a contract. In Hinzman's case he did serve in Afghanistan, and tried to get non-combat (conscientious objector) status to go to Iraq. He was refused.

The United States has long used the military as one of the few ways that poor people could get a post-secondary education to better their lot in life, recruiters have been found to less than honest on several occassions, and by most accounts the contract you sign when you join the military is a confusing legal document that only an expert could decipher. In other words, these kids didn't know what they were signing. It's only a small step from press-ganging in reality and, considering the way recruiters target people from poor neighbourhoods, a defacto back door draft.
 

sanaa

New Member
Apr 8, 2005
1
0
1
I found this webpage by searching on the net for David Sanders AWOL. I knowthat I am only 19 and may not know all the facts about the war in Iraq or the US government. However I do know that David Sanders is one of my dearest friends. I support what these brave men and women have done. It may have been legally wrong but morally it was all that they could do. Like many of them have said they don't feel they have done anything wrong by turning down an illegal order. These men have stood up to enitre institutions. I know that I could never do such a thing. They have done so and by doing it they have give hope and courage to other soldiers to do the same. god only knows that there must be thousands who are to afraid to speak up. Canada is about freedom, if we allow these men to stay I will stand behind the country the entire way. I know I am only one college student but thats all i can do right now. I am currently trying to branch off of the War Resisters Support Campaing in Toronto to London. Please show you support these innocent and courages men by signing the petition at wwww.resisters.ca [/i]
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
4,125
0
36
57
Vancouver
members.shaw.ca
Re: RE: The legality of hosting US AWOL soldiers in Canada?

mrmom2 said:
Didn't our Goverment secretly sign a deal with US to send these people back?

I never heard that but nothing surprises me anymore these days.

I think they should be granted safe haven or refugee status like we did during vietnam.

The old provincial NDP politician who is running again from Creston, Corky Evans was a vietnam war draft dodger and of course the most famous draft dodger of all Svend Robinson.
 

missile

House Member
Dec 1, 2004
4,846
17
38
Saint John N.B.
We've already tossed one deserter back to the USA. So,why would any other draft dodgers expect any better treatment? Personally,I am all for these people and think they would become good citizens..unfortunately,our present government feels differently :cry: