The Israeli bullcrap detector

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
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Rick van Opbergen said:
moghrabi said:
First. If you don't think that the US is led by a Jewish lobby, then I don't know where you have been in the last 50 years. You can either see it or you can't. So I'll leave it up to you to discover the details.
You are doing the same thing again moghrabi. You are acting like a dogmatist: you believe you are right, though you have not presented the facts I asked for repeatedly, and when I criticize that point, you say I (!) am the one who has to "discover" the details. No, my friend, that's up to you.

Rick,

There is nothing to discover. If you haven't seen it, read about it. heard it from people, analyzed how the world is moving, I can't really give you the details. The details are not only written.

I don't criticize you for criticizing me. I respect your opinion very much. It is your right to disagree with me. However, I do believe I am right from what I have read, seen, and so forth.
 

Rick van Opbergen

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I can agree with you as well, moghrabi, but I am asking for you to give me a clear view why you think this way. What are your sources? On what experiences do you base your opinion? Where are the facts? Not to piss you off, but where is the proof? It's not that difficult to give me some proof right? :wink:
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
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fair. Ask me specific questions about what you want to know and I'll provide the proof. The reason I am asking is I really don't know what you want me to prove.

So we question and answer. I'll provide as much info as I am able to.
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
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http://www.rense.com/general27/jlobby.htm

http://www.the7thfire.com/the_jewish_lobby.htm

Read the following in full:

http://www.antiwar.com/mcconnell/mc040902.html


I've never seen a President -- I don't care who he is -- stand up to them [the Israelis]. It just boggles the mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. I got to the point where I wasn't writing anything down. If the American people understood what a grip those people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens certainly don't have any idea what goes on."

-- Admiral Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff. Quoted in Paul Findley's They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby"

"Israeli intelligence knew beforehand that Iraq had no weapons stockpiles and misled US President George W Bush."


-- Yossi Sarid, a member of the Israel's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee in the Knesset (The Age: February 4, 2004)

"In the course of the past year, a new belief has emerged in the town (Washington D.C.): the belief in war against Iraq. That ardent faith was disseminated by a small group of 25 or 30 neoconservatives, almost all of them Jewish, almost all of them intellectuals (a partial list: Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Eliot Abrams, Charles Krauthammer), people who are mutual friends and cultivate one another and are convinced that political ideas are a major driving force of history."


-- Haaretz, Israeli paper: By Ari Shavit: "White Man's Burden" , March 4, 2003

More if needed. I tried not to put links to any Arab press so it is not biased.
 

Paco

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Jul 6, 2004
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Reverend Chris said:
Firstly: Everything Paco has said in his original post was in favour of Israel. Every single point listed is very slanted. So much so that facts are being twisted here in favour of Israel.

Ah, the key here may be “that facts are being…” I may have put some spin in my post, however most of what I said was fact. On the other side is moghrabi, who’s opinions are so radical and twisted, he makes Baghdad Bob look good. I just thought this place needed some balance. Moghrabi posts so much one sided propaganda that the other side was begging to be argued. Further when pressed for logic or fact, moghrabi responds with “you can either see it or you can’t.” Like Baghdad Bob’s denials that coalition forces were bombing the hell out of Baghdad, moghrabi can see only hate.

Reverend Chris said:
My last point here: Arab countries have every right to show contempt towards Israelis. The Jews have been manipulating and undermining other races for centuries, the Arabs are just one of the most recent ones. They've been murdered, shot, and displaced (especially) since 1949 when they evicted Arabs from their homes and their lands. Israel definately knows howto make enemies, and Arab nations are some of the most prominent.

Israelite rule in the Middle East started with Joshua’s conquest around 1200 BC. From about 600 BC and forward other peoples and empires controlled the land of the Jews including Babylon, Greece, and Rome. When Rome almost wiped out the Jews they renamed the area Palaestina to avoid identification with Israel.

The Arabs conquered Palaestina more than two millennia after the Jews first conquered it the land. Throughout recorded history of the area, the Jews have lived there as conquerors and the conquered. The history of the Jew does not begin in 1949.

In 1949, the Palestinians were offered their own country. The turned it down. They refuse to live with the Jews. They refuse to share the land and live in peace. It is all or nothing for the Arab world. They (the Arabs) maintain the tension of war in the Middle East. They cannot even get along with each other. How one can attribute fault to the Israelis is completely beyond reason.
 

Rick van Opbergen

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A note before I'll start: the first two articles are almost the same. Just to inform you.

Although the first article by Mark Weber is very well based, I do have some sidemarks. First, in general, the author believes that "the Jews" are one homogeneous group, considering the fact that he concludes that all Jews must have certain collective goals (one of them being the "Jewish-Zionist interests", which conflict with American interests according to the article). However, Jewish America is more diverse than one may think, and it should be taken in consideration that all 5 million US Jews can have different opinions on different subjects. And not only in the political arena; they're can be great difference on opinions concerning a social topic like gay marriage (Reform Jews approve of this, as well as several Jewish gay and lesbian organisations, http://archive.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=2980 ). Not all the US Jews support Israel no matter what (although it's logical US Jews have a greater sympathy towards Israel than other religious/ethnic groups), with the Satmar being a prime example ( http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/satmar.htm ). More than other Americans do the American Jews oppose the war in Iraq ( http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/041022/jews.shtml ). While it is undoubtely true there are Jews among Conservatives, US Jews have a history of voting Democrat. And to what extent do American Jews use their "powers" to benefit their own group, and to a further extent, the Israeli government? To what extent can the author claim the "Jewish lobby" to be the most decisive factor in the US support for Israel, and not the "born-again Christian lobby"? To what extent does the "Jewish lobby" support Israel because of their actions against Palestinians, and not because the majority of the Israeli population are fellow Jews? To what extent does the "Jewish lobby" use their "power" to protect Israeli interests, and not use it for their own American interests? To what extent is the "Jewish lobby" one group, and not a group of all the several Jewish groups there exist, as I bet there is not one "Christian lobby" but seperate ones, from born-again Christians to Roman Catholics? To what extent can you claim - as I said before - that all Jews are Zionists and act in a way to protect Israel? And to what extent does the following quote " Non-Jewish suffering simply does not merit comparable attention. Overshadowed in the focus on Jewish victimization are, for example, the tens of millions of victims of America's World War II ally, Stalinist Russia, along with the tens of millions of victims of China's Maoist regime, as well as the 12 to 14 million Germans, victims of the flight and expulsion of 1944-1949, of whom some two million lost their lives" only apply to the US, and not to most countries in the world? (with which I mean that in countries where there is no so-called disproportiate amount of Jews in the media these other genocides are getting only minimal attention too).

More to follow.
 

moghrabi

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May 25, 2004
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Most articles I post here are written by your fellow americans. If you call it hate, then you know who is writing it.

My opinions are not twisted at all. It bothers people like you that some people see things differently. As for my answers (you can see it or not) the debate is on.
 

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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Location, Location
1 Are you aware that Israel exists because a group of people believe that it says in a book that they have a right to this land?
2 Are you aware that many people in the world today do not believe in this book?
3 Are you aware that a significant portion of the world simply wishes that the Arabs and Israelis go off by themselves and settle their own affairs, without the financial, military, and political support of other nations?
4 Are you aware that much of the Arab/Israeli conflicts, such as the 1967 war, were really just "field tests" of Soviet and American military hardware?
5 Does anybody really know what time it is?
6 Does anybody really care?
 

Paco

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Jul 6, 2004
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Re: RE: The Israeli bullcrap detector

TenPenny said:
1 Are you aware that Israel exists because a group of people believe that it says in a book that they have a right to this land?

Are you sure that is the reason the Brits and the UN determined they should have land and a state? Or was it because they have always lived there and had been persecuted throughout history?

TenPenny said:
2 Are you aware that many people in the world today do not believe in this book?

NO! Really?

TenPenny said:
3 Are you aware that a significant portion of the world simply wishes that the Arabs and Israelis go off by themselves and settle their own affairs, without the financial, military, and political support of other nations?

It's against human nature not to take sides. Where is this "significant portion?"

TenPenny said:
4 Are you aware that much of the Arab/Israeli conflicts, such as the 1967 war, were really just "field tests" of Soviet and American military hardware?

The American military was "field testing" its military hardware in Vietnam and so were the Soviets. You should read a little history on the subject. You might discover that Nassar made several grave errors in diplomacy and judgement.
 

youwho

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Dec 1, 2004
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Re: RE: The Israeli bullcrap

Mediana said:
Canadian values are incompatible with the simplistic and mischievous views you espouse.

What are Canadian values with respect to aboriginal rights and freedoms ?

Paco might be a racist. But he is not a hipocrit.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Hello, Salut, Saluton, Ahlan wa Sahlan, Shalom, and 你们好!

I've found this link to a Jewish site you might find interesting:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

This site claims that ultra-orthodox Jews believe that according to the Torah, the Jews were not to return to the Holy Land until their Messiah returned, and it even quotes from the scriptures to prove their point. As far as this group is concerned, the Zionists are no more Jewish than, say, the Crusaders were Christian; religion is merely an excuse for their fanaticism.
 

Rick van Opbergen

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But there is one problem Machjo: the first Zionists did not come to Palestine / Israel - although they claimed it on Biblical grounds - on religious grounds, but on nationalistic grounds. The first Zionists from Europe - we will not focus on the large numbers of Yemenite Jews who came to Palestine starting around the 1880s - came to the "Holy Land" out of socialist / nationalistic reasons, to escape ongoing pogroms in Eastern Europe. So the large secular crowd in Israel many of whom are descendants from these early Zionists will not be impressed by ultra-Orthodox Jews who claim they can not claim the land without waiting for the Messias.
 

youwho

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Dec 1, 2004
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"Paco might be a racist. But he is not a hipocrit."

I think I may have been guilty of a little typocrisy.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Re: RE: The Israeli bullcrap detector

Rick van Opbergen said:
But there is one problem Machjo: the first Zionists did not come to Palestine / Israel - although they claimed it on Biblical grounds - on religious grounds, but on nationalistic grounds. The first Zionists from Europe - we will not focus on the large numbers of Yemenite Jews who came to Palestine starting around the 1880s - came to the "Holy Land" out of socialist / nationalistic reasons, to escape ongoing pogroms in Eastern Europe. So the large secular crowd in Israel many of whom are descendants from these early Zionists will not be impressed by ultra-Orthodox Jews who claim they can not claim the land without waiting for the Messias.

Oh you're right. You ought to read the responces to their site. Some of the more common ones, as might be expected, are words of surprise and /or encouragement on the part of more 'conservative?' Jews and Muslims, while on the other hand they're getting an awful lot of hate mail from others accusing them of not being real Jews (in unkinder terms, of couse).

Judging from the comments on the con-side, however, I must wonder just how publicly these Jews will voice such ideas. 'Cause I suspect some of those who'd view them as traitors could be a little unpredictable.