Browsing the culture forums here it appears as if many Canadians are clinging to the idea of an identity. People are asking each for Canadian this and that. Why? It really appears as if canadians are not sure themsleves what canadian is andm I must say... thats great. However appealing the romantic idea of being devouted to one's country may be the idea is completely manufactured, Just as manufatured as the idea of an international boundary. This "privatzation" (forgive me if i sound like a marxist) of land only adds fuel to the flame, that is to say many international disputes are due to the manufactured idea of a boudary and a nation state. Nation states were created with the intetion of promoting and facilitating trade all while benefiting the people already at the top. Furthermore, society in general has always wanted to simplify and objectify various matters and the idea of a distinguishable boundary does just that. For instance, when asking wether or not a movie was good we seek out the score from the review, God forbid a review be printed without a score. The idea of a nation does just that it takes away the uncertainty surrounding a person's identity, rather than identifying with oneslef we identify with a symbol that claims to represent us. So instead of calling yourself a 35 year old woman who enjoys reading, when someone asks what you are we say Canadian. Much simpler, eh?
The Idea of a Canadian Identity and identity in general
- Thread starter patdesjardins
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Well I understand where you are coming from, mostly because when I study history I usually look at historical issues with a so called "Marxist Historian" approach. Though I am not a Marxist I am nominally left of centre.
You are somewhat right in your statement but also very general. The modern Nation states and even nationalism is a product of the rise of the bourgeoisie class (Merchents and other money classes) durning the middle to late feaudal ages in Europe. The decline in the nobility and the rise of nation states with property owners usually being the members of the voting class made new borders and nations. With the bourgeoisie firmly on the rise the first "modern" state's arised from bourgeoisie revolutions, The French first Republic and the USA for instance. These nation states were partly made for trade, security and the liberity of the bourgeoisie class.
So I don't have to write on about more history for the next few hours I'll go on to say, many leftist authors from scientific socialists and utopian socialists invisioned a world after capitalism, a world were there were no borders. But the attemtps at making these worlds have just been as bad or at times worse then the bourgeoisie nation states. It would seem as if even when human beings go out to achieve a goal with good intentions (IE Russian Revolution) it becomes coruppted by the people who chose to follow corrupted leaders (V.I. Lenin, Stalin, Moa, Pol Pot,)
I think even though People like our current Pope just said today we should have a united humanity to end poverity and the like, that such goals are too hard to follow up with. That the Nation State, and to a better extent, the Canadian Nation State is not perfect, but does look after many of the basic needs of the people living under this state, more so then even our nabours to the south and our cousins across the pond in the UK and Ireland.
I don't think it's so much our Identity we try to protect, but our common society beliefs such as good health care, human decency, and education.
Well I hope my opinion makes sence, at least a little bit.
You are somewhat right in your statement but also very general. The modern Nation states and even nationalism is a product of the rise of the bourgeoisie class (Merchents and other money classes) durning the middle to late feaudal ages in Europe. The decline in the nobility and the rise of nation states with property owners usually being the members of the voting class made new borders and nations. With the bourgeoisie firmly on the rise the first "modern" state's arised from bourgeoisie revolutions, The French first Republic and the USA for instance. These nation states were partly made for trade, security and the liberity of the bourgeoisie class.
So I don't have to write on about more history for the next few hours I'll go on to say, many leftist authors from scientific socialists and utopian socialists invisioned a world after capitalism, a world were there were no borders. But the attemtps at making these worlds have just been as bad or at times worse then the bourgeoisie nation states. It would seem as if even when human beings go out to achieve a goal with good intentions (IE Russian Revolution) it becomes coruppted by the people who chose to follow corrupted leaders (V.I. Lenin, Stalin, Moa, Pol Pot,)
I think even though People like our current Pope just said today we should have a united humanity to end poverity and the like, that such goals are too hard to follow up with. That the Nation State, and to a better extent, the Canadian Nation State is not perfect, but does look after many of the basic needs of the people living under this state, more so then even our nabours to the south and our cousins across the pond in the UK and Ireland.
I don't think it's so much our Identity we try to protect, but our common society beliefs such as good health care, human decency, and education.
Well I hope my opinion makes sence, at least a little bit.
RE: The Idea of a Canadia
I think a lot of the wish to identify ourselves comes from the globalisation that is being pushed on us by Martin and Bush and Harper and Maggie Thatcher's bastard son.
We often get accused, as Canadians, as identifying ourselves as "not American." That's true to an extent, but the identification comes from the way the question is framed. What is "not American" about us? Well, we don't show much deference to our leaders; we cherish our social programs; we are proud of our reputation as peacekeepers; we support the UN; most Canadians, if not those cheap bastards in Ottawa, support Pearson's goal of giving 0.7% of GDP in aid to the developing world.
In short, we support fairness, including fair trade. We are continually faced with what the neo-conservatives and neo-liberals have labelled free trade though. There is nothing free about it, of course...it is inherently unfair and undemocratic. Lately they've been trying to co-opt the fair trade title too, like we can be fooled into thinking that stealing the name equates to instituting the idea.
So I think the idea of a borderless world is a good one, but I don't think we're going to see any substantial movement in that direction anytime soon. Our leaders are still following the old imperialist model of importing wealth for themselves at the expense of everybody else. As long as they do that, especially when they are claiming that it's free and fair, you will see a backlash against it.
I think a lot of the wish to identify ourselves comes from the globalisation that is being pushed on us by Martin and Bush and Harper and Maggie Thatcher's bastard son.
We often get accused, as Canadians, as identifying ourselves as "not American." That's true to an extent, but the identification comes from the way the question is framed. What is "not American" about us? Well, we don't show much deference to our leaders; we cherish our social programs; we are proud of our reputation as peacekeepers; we support the UN; most Canadians, if not those cheap bastards in Ottawa, support Pearson's goal of giving 0.7% of GDP in aid to the developing world.
In short, we support fairness, including fair trade. We are continually faced with what the neo-conservatives and neo-liberals have labelled free trade though. There is nothing free about it, of course...it is inherently unfair and undemocratic. Lately they've been trying to co-opt the fair trade title too, like we can be fooled into thinking that stealing the name equates to instituting the idea.
So I think the idea of a borderless world is a good one, but I don't think we're going to see any substantial movement in that direction anytime soon. Our leaders are still following the old imperialist model of importing wealth for themselves at the expense of everybody else. As long as they do that, especially when they are claiming that it's free and fair, you will see a backlash against it.
I think it goes far deeper into the pschye. We obviously progressed by being part of the group. When survival was ensured by our "tribe" it became ingrained within us. In modern societies it has been replaced by nationalism. A sense of belonging to a tribe from a specific country.
I too, think a borderless world would be preferable.I agree until we can get the "elite" to use some common sense it will never come about.
I too, think a borderless world would be preferable.I agree until we can get the "elite" to use some common sense it will never come about.
I also think Nationism, or the need for identity started before Nafta and the globalization of the world and goes further then just a defeance against free trade. Historicly you can see the progress of Canadian nationalism from it's early beginings as a Mostly Upper British/Tory/englash movement of difference between those of the Catholic/French New France, Lower Canada to the Southern Republican Imperalist ambitions of the American's who for the 18th and 19th centry had a menifest destiny which most americans believed in to rule all of north america including Canada.
To the time of ww1 where by the end of the world we had emerged as a new nation state. To 1982 and the constitution of Canada being brought to Canada and a new sence of a Canadian nation emerging, one of multiculturalism, and of progressive social fairness and equility.
I think nationalism, pride or national identity can be used to fight off globalization of the world markets and labour but it is much more then just a tool. It is the history of a people. From British Subjects to the end state where we are now of Canadian Citizen, regonized and respected across the world for our peace keeping and not making.
To the time of ww1 where by the end of the world we had emerged as a new nation state. To 1982 and the constitution of Canada being brought to Canada and a new sence of a Canadian nation emerging, one of multiculturalism, and of progressive social fairness and equility.
I think nationalism, pride or national identity can be used to fight off globalization of the world markets and labour but it is much more then just a tool. It is the history of a people. From British Subjects to the end state where we are now of Canadian Citizen, regonized and respected across the world for our peace keeping and not making.
It did start before NAFTA, Finder. In fact it started before Confederation. It ebbs and flows though and we're at a high ebb right now. I don't remember Expo '67...I was three...but my mother tells me that we're even more nationalistic now in some ways.
At the same time, there are a lot of Canadians who apparently don't want to be Canadian anymore. I'm not talking about so-called hyphenated Canadians, but about those who look to the US as a role model. In my view we're a little old for role models...especially negative ones like what the US has become in the last 25 years or so.
At the same time, there are a lot of Canadians who apparently don't want to be Canadian anymore. I'm not talking about so-called hyphenated Canadians, but about those who look to the US as a role model. In my view we're a little old for role models...especially negative ones like what the US has become in the last 25 years or so.