The "evil socialist and capitalist" clishes!

[Toro]

Re: RE: The "evil socialist a

this wealth you talk of is merely driven by greed and is of no absolute value. "Value added" is a rediculous term since the greatest value is prior to manipulation.

Yet you live in a country that has benefited enormously from that "ridiculous value added"

It is that "ridiculous value added" that makes lives easier, that gives us more free time, that spawns advances in technology, that gives rise to medicines and vastly improved medical treatment leading to longer lives. The average person lived to be about 40 200 years ago. Now its double that.

The explosion in this "ridiculous value added" over the past 200 years has lead to an unprecidented increases in living standards unknown throughout time until the past two centuries.

It is not ridiculous. It is perfectly logical and rational.

This value added is the greatest thing ever for mankind.

 

[Machjo]

Wow! And the cliches are flying again!

Let the feathers fly!

I'm all for capitalism! Capitalism all the way! Let's put the Canadian military and parliament hill on the TO stock exchange.

Immagine that, a military for rent, saves us money anyway. And as for parliament hill, whoever buys it will probably want to build shops all over it, which again will save the taxpayer some money to maintian parliament.

I say we charge for ballots (they do cost money after all!). And we could sell off highways too (pay per use, toll booths, how about that? Saves tax money for non-drivers anyway.

Come to think of it, we could privatize courts too (I'm sure the supreme court will appreciate a food court downstairs, much more convenient than going out to look for a rectaurant. We could privatize the RCMP too, and pay them on commission; then watch traffic and parking tickets fly!

I say privatise municipal water supplies (plenty of water bottling companies would love to buy those out).

What do you think?

Bunch of commies!

 

[MMMike]

Actually for Parliament Hill I had in mind a roller coaster circling the Peace Tower, kinda like in Seattle! :wink:

 

[I think not]

I dunno, I rather enjoy being a capitalist pig.

 

[Jay]

Socialists are just pissed off because we put up a resistance to them controlling our lives. They aren't smart enough to see themselves the way we see them.


I believe in a mixed economy, but my mix is 10% socialism and 90% freedom.

Its like a two stroke engine…what happens if the mixture is to rich?

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: The "evil socialist and capitalist" clishe

Socialists are just pissed off because we put up a resistance to them controlling our lives. They aren't smart enough to see themselves the way we see them.


I believe in a mixed economy, but my mix is 10% socialism and 90% freedom.

Its like a two stroke engine…what happens if the mixture is to rich?

Yes yes I'm pissed off because I can't control your life... whatever... Neo con loonies like you just think about yourself. Actually most socialists, social democrats, liberals and even red torys only care about making sure everyone has a far chance in life. Anyone who see's capitalism as a freedom is completely blind to history and the indestrial revolution where for almost a hundred years the vast magority of the population lived in conditions of filth, wages which could not support a family to even eat, and six day work weeks where man would often work 12-16 hour days while only the bosses got any benifit fromt he profits. It was only Socialist prinicipals in the form of trade unions and left wing parties which ended up changing things. This is why we live in a nation we do today. Not because of the so called "inviable hand of the market" but because of left wing parties and unions. Do I think many of these unions and parties go too far. YES! But I think bwelieving in pure capitalism is inhuman, damn right! Jay if not for the things you hate, you'd most likely be working right now in a shitty job making something for pennies a day for about 14 hours a day pretty much uneducated, no chance to own property, or even vote because the evil socialists hadn't had pushed for changing voting laws to allow none property owner to vote. Indeed we'd live in a totally different world today if socialism hadn't had the influance it had and still does in everybody lives.

 

[Jay]

I'm not so sure your a real socialist, Finder.

Thats a compliment BTW.

You did see the part where I said I was for a mixed economy? Most conservatives I know agree with me.


Oh and BTW, I'm for Freedom for all, equality before the law for all. Not... "hey I'm a frick'n 75k a year GM worker demanding my healthcare be paid for by all". That's lunacy for all.

Socialists are greedy pigs slobbering over other people's money and controlling vital aspects of people’s lives. Are you that Finder....cause I don't think so.


But then again you say..... "Yes yes I'm pissed off because I can't control your life... whatever... Neo con loonies like you just think about yourself."

So how are you all going about managing to change that without controlling my life? I suppose you don't think that taxing people at 50% and more is controlling their lives. I dunno, I think it is.

 

[Finder]

I don't see how making sure everyone has the ability to have proper health care, education and even perhaps some labour standerds is an infrigment of your personal freedom. If you feel it is... well even though I don't like what the Utopian thinkers said about the "common good", well these little things are for the common good and do mean more to me then it's infringements on your personal liberty. I think if you suffer by paying a little more in taxes ensure that a single mother can give birth, a oor child can go to school and a worker doesn't have to work in shitty conditions for 80 hours a week, well suffer then.

You are right I'm not a pure socialist, nor am I a pure capitalist. But you a quick to shit on everything that is socialist it would seem by the majority of your posts. I'm here to remind you the good things we have received from the left.

Of course I do see a generally free market economy is helpful and healthy to a nation, so is land owning and many other capitalist beliefs. You do not have to go far back in history to see how Socialism like Capitalism when brought to the extreme is just as bad.

However I do not think there's a magic number to Socialism, capitalism, libertarianism and authoritarianism you need in a nation. Really democratic principals can even out where a nation will go as long as the form of government allows the representation of the minority/minorities.

 

[the caracal kid]

Re: RE: The "evil socialist a

this wealth you talk of is merely driven by greed and is of no absolute value. "Value added" is a rediculous term since the greatest value is prior to manipulation.

Yet you live in a country that has benefited enormously from that "ridiculous value added"

It is that "ridiculous value added" that makes lives easier, that gives us more free time, that spawns advances in technology, that gives rise to medicines and vastly improved medical treatment leading to longer lives. The average person lived to be about 40 200 years ago. Now its double that.

The explosion in this "ridiculous value added" over the past 200 years has lead to an unprecidented increases in living standards unknown throughout time until the past two centuries.

It is not ridiculous. It is perfectly logical and rational.

This value added is the greatest thing ever for mankind.

does it really? you may want to try looking at things from a perspective other than "down your own snoot".

quality of life is far more important than quantity.
working less: not based on averages!

show some real proof that this captialist life is "so much better" and i mean unbiased proof, not the "i like my life the way it is, so it is better" variety.

everything you talk about is merely subjective.

people are still chasing freedom and are no closer now than ever. captialism is as imprisoning as any other system. It just fools its adherents better into thinking they are somehow free when they are more bound-up than anybody by how the weight is shifted.

 

[I think not]

I have yet to hear anything even remotely resembling a solution from you Caracal, you keep mentioning this is bad this doesn't work, but you have never offered us any alternatives. When are you going to enlighten the rest of us? How much longer are we going to wait?

 

[Jay]

You are right I'm not a pure socialist, nor am I a pure capitalist. But you a quick to shit on everything that is socialist it would seem by the majority of your posts. I'm here to remind you the good things we have received from the left.

Thats fine by me....I could use someone like yourself to remind me from time to time that the members of the left aren't all crazy.


I'm a capitalist because I believe in freedom. If you think there is someway to show me that socialism is the way to freedom, I'm all ears, but I must warn you it will be a seriously tough sell because I wasn't born yesterday and I know being taxed at 50% and told that I can't print (or read) certain literature is not freedom; it's not even close. I know that being told “you can’t pay for your own medical care” isn’t freedom, but in the same sense I believe there are people who NEED help and are freedom less without a hand up; I respect that. I might say though that enabling “mothers” to go out to the bar “legs a’ spread open” with promises of free welfare money for the new birth it brought is wrong, but what are we to do about it is the debate I suppose.

I agree with the labour standards you mentioned, but I don't agree with unions (early union history notwithstanding) The Ontario government is my union....not the CAW etc.

I look forward to hearing more from you.

 

[the caracal kid]

RE: The "evil socialist a

i have offered some aspects. you commented we won't see that type of progress for at least a couple hundred more years.

(i reveal things in a way where the reader gets to where i am going on their own. otherwise it is like trying to sell meat products to vegans)

 

[Finder]

You are right I'm not a pure socialist, nor am I a pure capitalist. But you a quick to shit on everything that is socialist it would seem by the majority of your posts. I'm here to remind you the good things we have received from the left.

Thats fine by me....I could use someone like yourself to remind me from time to time that the members of the left aren't all crazy.


I'm a capitalist because I believe in freedom. If you think there is someway to show me that socialism is the way to freedom, I'm all ears, but I must warn you it will be a seriously tough sell because I wasn't born yesterday and I know being taxed at 50% and told that I can't print (or read) certain literature is not freedom; it's not even close. I know that being told “you can’t pay for your own medical care” isn’t freedom, but in the same sense I believe there are people who NEED help and are freedom less without a hand up; I respect that. I might say though that enabling “mothers” to go out to the bar “legs a’ spread open” with promises of free welfare money for the new birth it brought is wrong, but what are we to do about it is the debate I suppose.

I agree with the labour standards you mentioned, but I don't agree with unions (early union history notwithstanding) The Ontario government is my union....not the CAW etc.

I look forward to hearing more from you.

I agree with you modern unions in Canada and the USA don't appear to understand the current situation with the globalization of the world markets and really have harmed the "working class" in Canada by driving companies to bankruptcy. Case and point the airline industry.

Anyhow Capitalism nor Socialism are roads to freedom, nor democracy. You and many other people from the left or the right may disagree with this but really politics is a compos and not a straight line. You can have a right wing government and have it be autocratic and you can have a left wing government be libertarian.

Though I may think the Unions in what is seen as a traditional "working class" industry has driven industry away from Canada and the USA the service industry, like Wal-mart needs a union. Where these employee's are paid little more them minimal wage, a health package which is a joke and too expansive for these poor families to use, and the fact that the policy of corporate policy of Wal-mart is to get there employee's on STATE WALFARE and STATE ASSISTANCE is basic thievery of the public wallet by Wal-mart! Keep in mind the hundreds of millions Wal-Mart grosses in profits every year. Truly this exploitation is not just in the USA but also in nations such as "communinist" China where Chinese workers are paid pennies to make the shirts we pay $20 dollars for.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not against globalization or free trade. Unlike some people on the left I'm all for it. BUT it needs to be regulated with things such as labour standards, health care for the workers and sustainable wages and environmental responsibility. Besides that makes your millions in rich the nations you trade with and please, it does truly bring down the prices of things for all of us and usually increases the job market in both (all) nations. But when companies like wal-mart are permitted to run amok on the theory of lazier-fair capitalism, I'm against that.

Anyhow back to the loony or at least the stubborn left. Even in those nations which chose a government of the left, like the German Social Democrats, the British Labour Party, or half the Latin American nations right now, the left wing party once in power pretty quickly realize the reality of the situation and even if there were anti-free trade at one point they usually are won over by free-trade as long as it is fare trade.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: The "evil socialist a

i have offered some aspects. you commented we won't see that type of progress for at least a couple hundred more years.

(i reveal things in a way where the reader gets to where i am going on their own. otherwise it is like trying to sell meat products to vegans)

So how about a few solutions for todays world Caracal, how do you suggest we make it 200 years into the future?

Example; Should we let Iran build a nuke?

 

[the caracal kid]

RE: The "evil socialist a

Yes, let them build a nuke.

So long as there are two types of states (with and without nukes) there will be friction of inequality.

The long-term goal is elimination of weaponry, but this will only happen once necessary stages are passed through.

edit: so jay,
it is merely you prefer the illusion of freedom you create for yourself to shadow over your self-imposed confinments rather than the freedoms granted by social systems?

 

[I think not]

I say bomb them back to the stone age, and there you have your phase, "over there".

 

[the caracal kid]

RE: The "evil socialist a

and if they were of equal power to you, you would not say that. A balance of power leads to disarmament of both sides when both sides are open to talk.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: The "evil socialist a

and if they were of equal power to you, you would not say that. A balance of power leads to disarmament of both sides when both sides are open to talk.

I dunno about that, what about the Soviet Union and the US?

 

[the caracal kid]

RE: The "evil socialist a

talk is necessary. it is necessary in all possible scenarios with the exception of "bombing back to the stone age".

 

[Machjo]

Sorry I forgot to mention, education ought to be privatized too, user pay!