The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "The P

Should we build a world economic model to answer the euro myth quesiotn once and for all?

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I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
yes. I see that will will try to link it to inflation. But you need to see how it works. A devalued cuirrency does not cause the inflation directly. If the money devalues with no reason, this will scare investors and they will become reluctant to invest in your country. TO attract them, banks will raise interrest rates. High interrest rates means less loans, etc. which causes the prices to rises in the country: inflation.


But, if you create money that correlates USDs you had, the economic balance is maintained, as you are not cheating and investors see your country is doing well, becuase you are selling your stuff. Hence, they keep investing, in fact,m they may invest more...

Had? I'm going to go back to your argument:

You: 100 Euro + bike
Me: $100

You sell the bike to me for $50

So we are left with:

You: 100 Euro + $50
Me: $50 + bike

You now "transform" your dollars to Euro leaving you with:

You: 160 Euro
Me: $50 + bike

Is this correct?
 

Huck

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Re: RE: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - &qu

Jay said:
"High interrest rates means less loans, etc. which causes the prices to rises in the country: inflation. "

Really?

yes, because of the bank gives you more interrest for your money at the bank, they will make less profits. this will in turn reduce investments, so local corporations have less money and prices may go up. Also, if interrests rates ar high, the citizens are more likely to leave their money at the bank and spend less, hence the prices go up.
 

Huck

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Jan 25, 2006
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

I think not said:
Huck said:

And wouldn't destroying all these dollars create deflation?

no, because it is not in the US market. This is what is important to understand: once the USA have bought something and given their USDs, they are not USDs anymore. THey are currency of that country, converted in the amount required to make the US value.

so, if you give me 1 USD, when it is in my pocket it is not a USD anymore, it is 1.13 CAD, in the form of a USD. you dont have it anymore, it is in my pocket. i can burn it if i want, eat it what ever. it is not in the USA anymore.
 

Huck

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Note that i am simplifying for clarity. In fact, it does remain a USD in canadian hands. This is why i can change it at any time, and the rate prevailing at the moment of the change will impact how much i get for it. This is why if i want to buy oil, im better with USD, because it will never devaluate, even if the CAD goes down again.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
I think not said:
Huck said:

And wouldn't destroying all these dollars create deflation?

no, because it is not in the US market. This is what is important to understand: once the USA have bought something and given their USDs, they are not USDs anymore. THey are currency of that country, converted in the amount required to make the US value.

so, if you give me 1 USD, when it is in my pocket it is not a USD anymore, it is 1.13 CAD, in the form of a USD. you dont have it anymore, it is in my pocket. i can burn it if i want, eat it what ever. it is not in the USA anymore.

Your not making any sense here Huck, or at least I am not understanding you. You mentioned that the USD is a fiat currency, in other words it has no value. How can any country simply destroy USD and print their own money when the USD holds no value to it?
 

Huck

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

A fiat currency does not have no value, it simply has no "gold" to back it. This means that it can have ANY value possible, its all in the eyes of the observer.

example: if you take a sheet of paper, and succeed in convincing me that it is worth 100000000000$, then you just created a fiat currency. Of course, the value of a fiat currency is not made such in the real world. It is based on how much you economy is doing, so how the investors invest in your country, your debt, you exports, etc. For other countries than the USA, they also maintain a reserve of USD to rebuy teir currency if it falls, to revaluate it.

So in short, a fiat currency has the value the world gives it. Since its not backeds by gold, you can creawte as much as you want, and you dont need the equivalent in gold. So, its a big "smoke and mirros trick".

This is also very dangerous because if your country does not go to well, nothing prevents your currency to fall to the abbyss.
 

Huck

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

In currencies, we must remember that ost of it is "conptual", it is not true matter that has a weight and mass that obeys to laws of physics.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

So you are basically saying that:

1) The US government can print any amount of money it wants, whenever it wants.

2) Destroying USD when it is located outside the US does not and cannot cause deflation.

3) You can transform USD to any currency and destroy the USD with no problem.

Right?
 

Huck

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Note: if your currency falls to the abyss (like the CAD a few years back), you conversion rate becomes very low, so higher currencies can buy LOTS of your stuff (remember when 1 USD could buy you stuff priced 1,37 CAD).

What this does is that they buy your stuff, so your exports pick up. So, the economy is a cyclic cycle like this. You go down, your exports pick up, you go bac k up. As you get back up, you become to expensive, your exports go down. etc...
 

Huck

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

I think not said:
So you are basically saying that:

1) The US government can print any amount of money it wants, whenever it wants.

2) Destroying USD when it is located outside the US does not and cannot cause deflation.

3) You can transform USD to any currency and destroy the USD with no problem.

Right?

well, yes and no. Be carefull, is was using simple images to simplify the comprehension of the system.

US can print as much money as it wants, but if it remains in circulation, value dillutes, with the effects we know.

USDs are not destroyed, they are converted. This is becasue when it is in another countrie's hands, it is not USDs anymore, but money of this country, in USDs. The country did not invent these USDs, they got them for hard earned work, it is their money now.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
High interrest rates means less loans, etc. which causes the prices to rises in the country: inflation.

Wrong. High interest rates decreases inflation. Macro 101, second class.

Huck, have you ever taken an economics class?
 

Huck

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

No problem ITN, can't force you to change your mind.

But, for everyone, the model we build remains unshake becasue it is true. You do not have to believe it, but at least consider it. :D i post it again for all to see:


Now, I will repeat the main mechanisms of the model. I will not repeat everything so for more details, please read earlier posts.


Notez bien : This model may be difficult for some to accept. It is not easy to have our beliefs shattered. But my only goal is to make the truth stand out, and only the truth. It should be based on verifiable facts. If I got something wrong, please point it out and prove where i am wrong so we can correct the model.


Here is how our economical world works:


The USA has dollar hegemony. This means that their currency is wanted by all countries in the world. Countries want these US dollars because it allows them to repay debts allocated from the IMF in USD, buy commodities transacted in USD such as oil and value their own currency, in case they plunge in the market place.

The only issuer of USD is the United States of America. So, to get USD, countries must produce goods, which are sold to the USA. The USA, because it is the creator of the money, can print and create out of thin air the required funds to buy the goods. This money has value because the world recognizes it. The receiving country will most likely keep these dollars for future use. Now, because the money is given to another country, it becomes his, and this avoids the USA from diluting their money, even as they create new money.

Plus, they get the goods, which allow them to transform them and resell them. This mechanism makes investors happy, and it prevents the interest rates from rising, hence increasing inflations. As long as other countries need USD, the USA can print new money without deadly inflation.

Also, because the USA are the providers of money for the rest of the world, the banks are happy. The international monetary fund provides its loans in USD, so, for a country to avoid currency conversion costs, it is better off paying in USD. And to get USD,, must sell goods to the USA and provide the banks. So, this “vicious circle” keeps the USA going and productive, which makes the banks happy and allow the USA to keep borrowing money, greatly increasing the debt. In short, the banks make money by lending to the USA.

The USA currently have a massive trade deficit, which means they buy much more than they export, which means that in theory, they make no money. But, they can sustain their activities with the mechanism above. In fact, the US dollar makes up to 70% of the world reserve currency. This means that the world has a lot of US dollars, and keeps pumping them in. This mechanism is recognized by investors and since the US goes well under these conditions, they keep investing. In short, the USA are economically healthy even if the debt grows and trade deficit is important. (as long as the hegemony lasts)

Now, lets see what would happen if the euro (or another currency) was to become a major reserve currency and an oil trade currency.

Again, to buy oil, a country would not need USD anymore, but rather euro. So, they would basically either transform their dolalrs to euros, or begin using these dollars in the USA and buying goods. The first main effect would be that the other countries, to have euros instead of USD would begin exporting goods to Europe instead. This would make a drop in USD imports. Then, the USA would also begin needing euros for oil, because the dollar is not the defacto standard anymore, so it would need to also begin exporting goods to Europe. This would be very difficult with the trade deficit they have, because they would need to have a trade surplus. Also, the debt would begin being important, because the flow of free money would stop, scaring investors. Banks will now want to get paid, the vicious circle being broken.

Also, all the US dollars that would begin to flow out of the other country’s reserves would flood the US market, diluting the dollar and dramatically lowering its value. This would in turn generate high inflation.

All these factors put together do not look good from an investor’s point of view. IN fact, if all this happens too quickly, the USA would surely crash, and so would the rest of the world. So, it must be gradual. But, it would also mean that the USA would become a smaller country, and no more a super power. Luckily for the USA, the IMF still loans in USD for now, so the dollar would maintain a certain reserve to repay loans and would smooth the impact of the euro. But, if the IMF was to become like the World Bank and accept many currencies, the dollar would fall even more.

So, to protect their economy, the US must absolutely ensure the hegemony continues. And, well I guess in this case, the end justifies the means…

So, this means that the theory of the petroeuro crashing the USA is true. I will let you pull you own conclusions and links as with the wars and US foreign policy, but they certainly seem to have good reasons to defend their hegemony…


Thanks for listening! :D
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Toro said:
Huck said:
High interrest rates means less loans, etc. which causes the prices to rises in the country: inflation.

Wrong. High interest rates decreases inflation. Macro 101, second class.

Huck, have you ever taken an economics class?


Thats what I thought, but I thought I was loosing my marbles for a sec there....
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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The Evil Empire
Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
No problem ITN, can't force you to change your mind.

But, for everyone, the model we build remains unshake becasue it is true. You do not have to believe it, but at least consider it. :D i post it again for all to see:

........................................

Thanks for listening! :D

Actually you haven't proven anything, since economics isn't an exact science, it based on theories, so you have given your version of a theory.
 

Huck

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2006
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The Universe
Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Toro said:
Huck said:
High interrest rates means less loans, etc. which causes the prices to rises in the country: inflation.

Wrong. High interest rates decreases inflation. Macro 101, second class.

Huck, have you ever taken an economics class?

Well, again toro you acuse with nothing to offer in counter balance.

Inflation is really caused by employers having higher costs and passing it down to the customer. this is why prices rise. If interrest rates are high, the bank may invest less, and companies will have less money, having to absorb profit losses.

IF the interest rates increase and the investors invest in response, then the balance is restored as the new invested money can be reinvested in the country, keeping inflation stable.

There are many reasons that cause inflation, and for this, many theories exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

again toro, if you have knowledge, use it to show us, not just accuse with nothing more to say,