The end of US democracy?

chrisfer

New Member
Nov 29, 2004
19
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1
Oshawa
Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Not gonna happen, no matter what, the americans hold thier "view" of themselves being the most democratic country in the world above all else. They are very proud of it. Of course thier idea of democracy can "change" although they will of course not admit it.
 

Paranoid Dot Calm

Council Member
Jul 6, 2004
1,142
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Hide-Away Lane, Toronto
Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Hi!

Democracy is only as strong as the economy is.

It appears to me that Bush and The Boys are about to make a complete reversal in financial policy.
Almost all of his financial advisors have quit. Greenspan is on his way out too, I would imagine. Greenspan is starting to look pretty stupid backing such high deficits when his career was built upon less deficit spending.
I think that within 90 days .... the interest rates are going to climb. Bush could never excuse it all if he had the same crew because the media would replay what they were saying last year and which would be opposite to what they need to say now.
So, they are all gone and a bunch of new folks are on the block. They are gonna sell us "Ask for Less" and "Be Happy" ..... "It Could Be Worse!" All the main media channels will begin visiting starving Africa and feed us all images, and which have us believe that "We're Not Doing Too Bad In Comparison".

The US will always be a military power, but is no longer an economic power. Communist China is holding 57% of all U.S. debt! Our governments spent the future which belonged to our children. They did so with claims that Communisim was something to be feared. Now, a communist government holds the mortage. And, whats worse .... we love it! We admire our government! We even voted for them!

Our generation, born after WWII, will be known as the richest, most affluent, most well-educated civilization in the history of mankind. No other generation, born in the West, will have what we enjoyed. It is impossible.

It is China's turn to lead the world.

This is a good article:

Government and the People
A Scott Commentary
http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/signs20040923.htm

Calm
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: US Democracy nearing

I'd agree with all but the part about the US always being a military power, Calm. A military, especially one like the USA's requires a lot of money to keep it rolling. Without the financial clout the military gets severely downsized.
 

Paranoid Dot Calm

Council Member
Jul 6, 2004
1,142
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36
Hide-Away Lane, Toronto
Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Hi! Reverend Blair

Not to quibble with words ....

The U.S. will always have nuclear weapons. That is military power.

But, they won't have "power" or "influence" on the ground, and I guess that is where wars are won or lost. So, you may be right.

Calm
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
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38
Winnipeg
RE: US Democracy nearing

Yeah, as we learned with the USSR, those nukes aren't going away anytime soon. At the same time, once its empire fell Russia's nukes were less of a worry than before. Not to say they aren;t still a threat, but the feeling of impending doom is less.
 

Rick van Opbergen

House Member
Sep 16, 2004
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www.google.com
Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

irisheyesafire said:
Regarding democracy, "one" example is the Athenian democracy. Though what is "irrellevant" is me going into a history lesson with you.
irisheyesafire: the Athenian democracy can not be compared with the US democracy. It was in a totally other setting, with other principles, in another era.
 

irisheyesafire

New Member
Nov 21, 2004
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United States
Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

irisheyesafire: the Athenian democracy can not be compared with the US democracy. It was in a totally other setting, with other principles, in another era.

This was only ONE example - an example of the longest running democracy. Aside from that, do you not know that the western world has been shaped into what it is in the greatest sense by the Roman and Greek past (this with the understanding that the Romans derived the largest part of their culture from the Greeks)? Study of history also leads us to a greater understanding of our great similarities - often far more obvious than the minor differences. Such things follow suit, and certainly are applicable. Otherwise, of course it isn't singularly about whether or not we are "identical" in a social/cultural sense, but about the fact that forms of government do seem to follow patterns and similarities. This was my point in a nutshell to begin with, and we can indeed learn from it.
Thanks for your thoughts, though - it wasn't my intention to be so harsh previously.
Respectfully,
irisheyesafire
 

Martin Le Acadien

Electoral Member
Sep 29, 2004
454
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16
Province perdue du Canada, Louisian
Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Paranoid Dot Calm said:
Hi!

Democracy is only as strong as the economy is.

It appears to me that Bush and The Boys are about to make a complete reversal in financial policy.

You bet they are, there is talk of reforming the Tax Code in the US which means one thing-TAX INCREASE or revenue enhancement! The US re-invents itself after each election and the bag the Congress is holding now is SOCIAL SECURITY and MEDICARE which MUST be funded into 2070's to pay the Baby Boomers.

In the US, this is a Third Rail Issue not unlike Total Medical Care in Canada! No political party would want to be in charge of another Great Depression! In 1929, the Republicans were in power and they did not even gain favor after the Depression until the 1950's since Herbert S. Hoover was blamed for the countries' downfall!

To quote Mark Twain, "Rumours of my demise are quite unfounded!"

The US has a population of 300 Million , high Industrial capability and technology with a highly educated work force. We can only meet 30% of our energy needs but China is not able to produce enough Oil and Gas to meet 30% of its needs at present! The peasant farming techniques are China's strength since local agriculture can support an immediate area but GM engineered rice, millet and corn are playing havoc on the native corps in China. China's literarcy rate is now above 60 percent but her infastructure is limited to ancient coal driven railroads and handdug canals! She is modernizing but the efficiency of State Industries limit her growth since China doesn't want unemployment and most of her labor is largely manual!

Now, if Taiwan gets put in charge, all bets are off!
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: US Democracy nearing

China is getting into alternative energies though Martin. It's slow as hell, but it doesn't them any more than upgrading to the infrastructure the US already has would. The US, on the other hand (and this goes for all western nations), has to build new infrastructure while maintaining it's present infrastructure. It has to do it without the standard of living dropping.

Without the oil and gas and electricity that comes to the US from outside, manufacturing becomes impossible. So does producing enough food to feed the population because the ag industry is very energy intensive.

The US would rip itself apart if the luxuries were gone, never mind what would happen if there were food shortages. That makes it very vulnerable.
 

Prometheus

Electoral Member
Jul 12, 2003
198
0
16
Eastern USA
Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Paranoid Dot Calm said:
Hi!

Democracy is only as strong as the economy is.

It appears to me that Bush and The Boys are about to make a complete reversal in financial policy.

..........................

I think that within 90 days .... the interest rates are going to climb. Bush could never excuse it all if he had the same crew because the media would replay what they were saying last year and which would be opposite to what they need to say now.

..........................

The US will always be a military power, but is no longer an economic power. Communist China is holding 57% of all U.S. debt!

Calm


This is all very true, and already started to be reported on.

The sinking U.S. dollar in recent weeks has raised what is suddenly a top concern from Washington to Berlin and Beijing: Is America's currency undergoing a benign adjustment or a precipitous plunge?

Less hope after election
The dollar is now down about 50% against the euro since October 2000 and recently hit its lowest level since 1995 against a basket of foreign currencies.

While the shift isn't entirely new, it has accelerated since President Bush's re-election. Some observers say the timing reflects concern that Bush -- with his emphasis on tax cuts -- won't be able to rein in record budget deficits.

"The general perception was that under the Bush administration there would be less concentration on tackling the two deficits," says Richard Reid, European economist for Citigroup, the world's largest financial institution.

He was referring to the $412 billion budget deficit and the approximately $600 billion trade deficit the United States ran in 2004. A trade deficit must be financed by other nations willing to hold U.S. currency. And foreign investors have also been buyers of federal debt in recent years, helping to keep U.S. interest rates low. But the trend in these deficits now looks unsustainable to many. If those investors sour, even somewhat, on holding U.S. debt, the Treasury may need to offer higher interest on its bonds. The ripple effects, in turn, could dampen U.S. economic growth.

Entire article here.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P101252.asp?GT1=5851
 

Martin Le Acadien

Electoral Member
Sep 29, 2004
454
0
16
Province perdue du Canada, Louisian
Re: RE: US Democracy nearing

Reverend Blair said:
China is getting into alternative energies though Martin. It's slow as hell, but it doesn't them any more than upgrading to the infrastructure the US already has would. The US, on the other hand (and this goes for all western nations), has to build new infrastructure while maintaining it's present infrastructure. It has to do it without the standard of living dropping.

Without the oil and gas and electricity that comes to the US from outside, manufacturing becomes impossible. So does producing enough food to feed the population because the ag industry is very energy intensive.

The US would rip itself apart if the luxuries were gone, never mind what would happen if there were food shortages. That makes it very vulnerable.

The trick is to do it without dropping the Standard of Living! Alternative energy is being explored but it is still cheaper to depend and use fossil fuels! The alternative energy markets will not bloom until the price of oil (BOE) (Barell of Oil Equivilency)sp? equals or is less than what alternative energy costs. The secret to the US energy Market is what can we do with all that COAL? It costs 50 dollars a bbl to get oil from coal (Germany in WWII used synthetic oil in its war marchine!) Will it be done in the US?

The Military-Industrial Complex will not let its self go without energy! The food production industries will be supplied since food is a source of Foriegn Exchange! As far as Civil Unrest in the US, the cities might a bit testy since the Northeast Corridor lies within walking distance of Eastern Canada and the Goths did not respect the signs that read:

ROMA FRONTIERUS (The Roman Border)

so what do you think, that the homies and gangbangers will respect:

STOP-CANADIAN CUSTOMS AHEAD

If the US goes into the crapper, do you think I want to be near a big city when the food stamps do not work and the people are hungary! The scenario about the US ripping itself apart is only partially right, I would hate to be next door to the mess!
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

The trick is to do it without dropping the Standard of Living!

Actually, the standard of living would actually rise...new technology always does that. I guess I should have said "the standard of waste."

Not wasting requires a couple of things...you have to admit your were wrong in the first place, and you have to act change things.

Bush's message is very much that there are no consequences, no responsibility. Not for pollution, not for breaking international law, not for ignoring the plight of others. That will be the real end of the US because it isn't sustainable anymore...not even in the fairly short term.

People in China understand consequences though, they live with them all of the time. So do the people in the rest of the world, to one degree of another. Even in Canada, where our government clearly doesn't understand the people, there is an acceptance that what we do now will have repercussions later.
 

Chesterfield

New Member
Dec 1, 2004
1
0
1
Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

It just bothers me that we, as Canadians, take the time to be courteous and learn about countries that we are neighbours with, or visit to learn about cultural differences, languages and customs and that some of our American neighbours don't feel that the effort is worth it. It tends to make one feel like there is an arrogance that silently indicates that all the world needs to bend over backwards to meet the needs of some of these Americans. I have heard similar complaints from residents of other countries. I have a few American friends, who spend some time here in Canada, and some time in the States. I can't with good conscience lump all of 'em into one basket and say to hell with ya. But it makes it hard to defend ignorance in light of the many issues that have arisen in the past three to four years. With all of the world waiting for someone to blow up the first unaccounted for nuclear weapon, don't you think that maybe we as Canadians, have the right idea by pursuing peace-keeping, humanitarianism, pollution reduction, and health care? War mongering is an age old practice, but it hasn't worked in the past, and pisses off too many left wing radicals who are more than too happy to strap on a backpack full of explosives and jump on a bus full of girl guides or drive a fully fuelled plane into a building full of innocents. Needless, mindless destruction and death. The people responsible have long said that these have been actions in retaliation for American presence in their countries. No one deserves the kind of disasters that I spoke of earlier, but perhaps it is a risk that American politicians should consider when they inflict Americanism on other countries.

Being courteous, polite, and learning about other countries, people and cultures is something that I haven't witnessed too many Americans doing. There's an old saying that goes, "Keep your friends close to you, and your enemies even closer." If I knew someone was out to get me, I would learn as much as I could about them, because then you know their weaknesses. It's that arrogance in not bothering to learn that makes some Canadians resent Americans. Democracy nearing an end in the US? I am pretty sure that it ended with the conspiracy to assassinate JFK. Since then it's all stage make-up and figureheads, a farce really. :?:
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: US Democracy nearing

loking at what happened after JFK's death, I'm inclined to agree with you, Chesterfield.

Have you ever seen the movie Bulworth? It shows pretty clearly what US politics is all about now. It also shows what happens to people who try to change it. Plus it's funnier than hell. Go rent it.
 

Paranoid Dot Calm

Council Member
Jul 6, 2004
1,142
0
36
Hide-Away Lane, Toronto
Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

In Canada, the Federal government has a 10 billion dollar surplus and a 45 billion dollar surplus in the UI account ..... and people are still going to bed hungry. What hope do the poor got if at these "best of times" they only get poorer?

Plight of Alberta's poor should worry all of us
By Bishop Fred Henry
October 31, 2004
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Calgary/Bishop_Fred_Henry/2004/10/31/694024.html

More B.C. kids using food banks
By Dirk Meissner
November 10, 2004
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2004/11/10/708977-cp.html

Halifax homelessness protest turns violent
November 27, 2004
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/11/27/protests-halifax041127.html

OCAP setting a poor example
By Joe Fiorito
October 07, 2004
http://www.pair-annoyed.com:9090/newz/showthread.php?t=3548

And, here is some info on pension here in Canada and the U.S.

How safe is your pension?
November 15, 2004
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/pension

Facing Facts
The Truth about Entitlements and the Budget
By Neil Howe and Richard Jackson
November 03, 2003
http://www.concordcoalition.org/facing_facts/alert_v9_n3.html

Shhh, Don't Say 'Poverty'
By Bob Herbert
November 22, 2004
http://www.publicdomainprogress.info/2004/11/poor-destitute-hard-up.html

I've been following "benefit" news for a while now. There are a few stories here.
http://www.pair-annoyed.com:9090/newz/showthread.php?t=5007