The Church is not the Enemy

Hank C Cheyenne

Electoral Member
Sep 17, 2005
403
0
16
Calgary, Alberta.
Church is not the enemy
Critics must acknowledge that religious faith is an essential safeguard on state's power
By Michael Coren

Every few years or so, political and social liberalism presents the culture with another empty mantra, intended to dismiss opponents and ridicule their arguments.

Not long ago we had the racism fetish. Conservatives were racist and their policies based on racism.

Remove racist and insert sexist, homophobic or fascist. Or just punch a Tory in the face and say that he offended you.

The reaction to political correctness made all that seem rather stale. So the left moved on. To the grand rallying cry of the need to "separate church and state." We hear it all the time, repeatedly used to support radical views and silence opposition.

Thing is, the entire concept is nonsensical in contemporary Canada. Worse than that, it's American. Yes, the country the liberals love to hate developed the notion of separating the state from the church. And it did so not to support the state but to protect the church.

The United States was founded by people who were overwhelmingly evangelical Christian, and who had suffered directly or through their forefathers from state persecution. A major aspect of this persecution had been the Church of England, the established church that had made life difficult for non-conformist Protestants and Roman Catholics.

In fact the entire separation idea was based on allowing religious influence by excluding one specific church denomination from dominating an entire culture. It was never supposed to protect the state from religion, in particular Christianity, because the founders of the United States did not believe that any such protection was necessary.

Essential safeguard

On the contrary, they saw religious faith as being an essential safeguard on the power and influence of the state. How correct they were. The leaders of the campaign against slavery were Christians and the people who forced Abraham Lincoln's hand both before and during the Civil War were motivated by their Christian zeal.

A century later it was the church, militant but non-violent, that under the guidance of Martin Luther King and a host of Christian leaders thrust the civil rights movement into the consciousness of the American people. The government, the courts and the media just followed the lead of the church.

When people today claim they do not want church interference in their lives or the life of the state, however, all they really mean is that they do not want to listen to anyone who disagrees with them. Moaning on about church and state separation makes them feel as if their arguments carry some intellectual weight.

What is selfish is made to sound grand. What is merely political is made to sound philosophical. They would rather indulge their own complacency than allow people of faith to hold up a mirror to the moral flabbiness of the secular world.

That is particularly sad in this country, and startlingly ironic. The very people who obsess about the separation of church and state tend to worship at the altar of Canadian nationalism, public broadcasting and most of all, socialized medicine.

The latter, of course, owes an incalculable debt to the great Tommy Douglas. Who was an ordained Baptist minister and evangelical Christian, motivated in his politics by his faith and the need to inject church teachings into the Canadian state.

So if we use the logic of the contemporary liberal, Tommy Douglas should have shut up and minded his own business. As should, to name just a few, William Wilberforce when he worked to end slavery in the British empire, Lord Shaftesbury when he led the struggle against child labour and the Catholic monk Titus Brandsma who gave his life to rescue Jews in occupied Holland.

Frankly, I doubt if much of this will make any difference to some of the fiercest critics of the church today. Hey, just punch a priest in the face and say he offended you.
 

Hank C Cheyenne

Electoral Member
Sep 17, 2005
403
0
16
Calgary, Alberta.
....seems the radical left is becoming more and more vile...they will attack anyone who does not feel the same way that they do and have no respect... this article has some good points and I find the Tommy Douglas point intresting....it seems the radicals want to ignore anything that doesn't fit their point...

..its shameful how they attack and try to isolate moderate chirstians .....and they don't understand that this leads to their good ideas being ignored.....isolating oneself is not the answer...

....another thing I find amusing is that the otherside spends barely any time talking about the left however the left (as shown on this forum) are obsessed and preoccupied with the right.....kinda funny

sure there are moderate right of center people and instead of sticking you nose up you should use your brain and try to stick together not make them hate you.....
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
4,125
0
36
57
Vancouver
members.shaw.ca
RE: The Church is not the

Most of us on the left have grown up and are past the believing in fairytales stage, in our lives.

Religion is behind every major conflict in the world - past, present and future.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
73
48
RE: The Church is not the

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary--H. L. Mencken


The right says this. The left said that. Neither is better or worse then the other. They're both unable to look beyond their own noses. And everyone who argues politics sees the other side as the enemy and seems unable to acknowledge their own foibles.

Another quote:
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle


Very very few people are able to do this it seems. Speaks volumes about those trying to debate a topic when neither side is willing to acquiesce the other sides points. I'm surprised you all don't get tired of spewing continuously. Because this is all it is. Until the other side of any debate is willing to acknowledge their faults and the oppositions correct points your fighting a loosing battle.

Or maybe this really isn't about proving a point. Or trying to educate. But simply the desire to see ones own words in type.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
10,745
0
36
pumpkin pie bungalow
well thats coz he was not a neocon, he kept his faith where it should be personal. We have already seen the morals and ethics of the neocons, no thanks! The misery they have caused thousands of people, your not holding up a mirror hank to us , what you see in the reflection is yourself. Blah!
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
5,338
70
48
51
Das Kapital
RE: The Church is not the

I hadn't heard of Tommy Douglas until that list came out.

Shocking, I know, especially since I know everything.....well now I do.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
10,745
0
36
pumpkin pie bungalow
Not true either twila, about not seeing other opinions. MMM mike is a conservative, not a NEOCON! he has made alot of interesting points around here. This is a real conservative, something the neocons have tried to destroy with their religious bullshit, as a means to control and munipulate others. Three cheers for a real conservative...MMM Mike. Sorry mike still not gonna vote conservative, but you give food for thought. :wink:
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
73
48
RE: The Church is not the

Not true either twila, about not seeing other opinions.MMM mike is a conservative, not a NEOCON! he has made alot of interesting points around here.

Have I accused MMMike of being a neocon?
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
10,745
0
36
pumpkin pie bungalow
not at all twila, your to nice for that, I am simply saying that I am open to a conservative point of view, and mike is a conservative. I am just not open to a religious zealot neocon opinion. I have seen first hand the misery they bring people.
*hugs* :wink:
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
73
48
RE: The Church is not the

Sorry Pea. You did accuse me of harbouring Neocons in my underpants in another thread. lol
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
this article has some good points and I find the Tommy Douglas point intresting.

That's because you are believing, and spreading, a lie. Tommy Douglas believed in the separation of church and state and said so. He never tried to push his religious beliefs on others.

The same remains true today. My MP, Bill Blaikie, is an ordained minister. So what? He doesn't try to force the Bible on us. He doesn't say that our laws should be based on Christian dogma.

its shameful how they attack and try to isolate moderate chirstians

Except nobody on the left does that. We resist when religious extremists try to push their views on us. Like the rest of the Canadian population, the left is made up mostly of people with a Christian heritage.
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
1,410
1
38
Toronto
peapod said:
Not true either twila, about not seeing other opinions. MMM mike is a conservative, not a NEOCON! he has made alot of interesting points around here. This is a real conservative, something the neocons have tried to destroy with their religious bullshit, as a means to control and munipulate others. Three cheers for a real conservative...MMM Mike. Sorry mike still not gonna vote conservative, but you give food for thought. :wink:

:oops: :oops: Ah, shucks! Thanks Pea! It's all just part of my masterplan: keep my head down and my nose clean until you drop your guard. Give me a few more months and I'll have you singing the praises of the great Stephen Harper. :D
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: The Church is not the

I cheer for Harper nearly every day, Mike. I see him as the best reason for vote for the NDP since Stockwell Day. ;-)
 

Hard-Luck Henry

Council Member
Feb 19, 2005
2,194
0
36
Slightly off-topic here, apologies for that, but I was just wondering ... Hallowe'en is only a very minor event in the UK, and nor are we as beset by fundies as you guys seem to be. Anyway - what do the fundies make of all that pagan/devil worship/witches stuff; I'd imagine it must freak them out a fair bit?
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
17
38
8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
Re: RE: The Church is not the Enemy

Hard-Luck Henry said:
Anyway - what do the fundies make of all that pagan/devil worship/witches stuff; I'd imagine it must freak them out a fair bit?

Not really...you see, most of these right-wing fundies relish the idea of having one more chance to stuff wads of cash in their pockets due to the highly commercial nature of the occasion...of course they'll give some back in the collection plate...uh huh... :roll: