The Chip - The Credit Card Chip

[barney]

Yeah, word processing is a perfect example of how a time-saving technology can be exploited to actually give people more work.

A secretary I know is now doing the work of about ten people and it's driving her loopy.

Don't get me wrong, I love technology as long as it serves a practical purpose (namely, allowing you to spend less time on mundane crap and more time on what really matters in life). The problem is, computerization has actually made life more difficult for many.

As far as security is concerned, it's only a matter of time until cyber-criminals figure out a way around it. That means new systems have to be developed at infinitum.

Personally, I don't like handling cash but I appreciate the annonymity it allows.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Barney, you are really saying what I said, in the short term, computerization leads to job losses, whether it is among the supermarket checkers (because of self check out machines), travel agents or secretaries (because of word processing, voice recognition etc).

However, in the long term computerization has invariably lead to more jobs. 100 years ago there were no computers. Think of all the jobs that were existing 100 years ago that do not exist today (secretary, typist, copy clerk etc.). But think of how many more jobs have been created in the past 100 years, today we employ many more people that we did 100 years ago.


It is an ongoing process. Jobs are lost due to computerization, new products, new services are created by computerization and that leads to more jobs. Where will the new jobs be created? We probably cannot even imagine that.

 

[barney]

Yes I see what you're saying: computerization = efficiency = increased profits = more investment in other industries (or expansion) = more jobs.

I'm saying that doesn't actually happen. The "increase" in jobs has mainly been proportional to an increase in population (since ww2). Just as computerization creates "efficiency" (read: job loss) in one industry, it also does so in all other industries; expanded sections of the market are just as automated. The result being that you end up with proportionally fewer jobs.

To suggest that something that is designed to reduce dependence on labour would produce more jobs is contradictory.

This reminds me of the old Fritz Lang flic, "Metropolis". I asks the question: what happens when companies switch to full automation and don't need the lower income portion of the population as labour/consumers anymore? Well, unless the government's willing to maintain all those now unemployed workers in what is an inevitably saturated job market of technicians, it's basically curtains for them.

 

[Zzarchov]

If you no longer need to workers to make things, then you will probably see alot of societies bypass the concept of wealth. After all, if self maintaining systems produce everything you need, then the need for wealth is gone. Since no one needs to work, everyone can be lazy and there is no free rider issue.

 

[VanIsle]

"Using these tills will put people out of work. Make no mistake about it. It won't happen for awhile but it will happen." Island Pacific

See I think that sucks! I can't believe human beings are going to take a back seat to technology. What are we going to do when we are all poor because machines have taken all our jobs and are doing everything for us? And then those that can't afford to be on top of technology will be crushed in it's wake. The rich people and technology. I wonder if this was The Great Society Johnson was talking about in the 60's?

The only way you can stop this is to refuse to use them. We have a box on the service counter that says "We're Listening". To all customers that complain to me about the self serve tills, I tell them that if they feel strongly about them then they should put their words in that box. I know that SirJoe says that they are usually free with only one cashier watching them which at the moment at least is not the case where I work. The tills are very busy (those and the others that have a cashier in attendance). It takes at least two of us to watch 6 tills. It's just way too easy to steal at these checkouts. Often my back has to be turned while I show someone how to use the till. Often both of us have our backs to 3 of the tills. What an opportunity! People do seize the moment. One of the ladies I work with asked a man if he had scanned his bag of potatoes (20 lb bag)because she could see he had not actually scanned anything yet. He said he had. So she asked for his receipt and he could not produce one. He said he must have forgotten that he had not scanned them!
If people selfishly continue to use self serve tills in any store they will soon only be served by a self serve till and likely they will have a FAQ speaker soon so you can ask a question and get an automated answer. Think again about how you feel when you call a business and you get an automated ans. and have to plug in about 5 numbers and answer 10 yes or no questions to get to a person or try to get to the dept. you want. That's the direction self-serve tills are taking you in.

 

[VanIsle]

Barney, you are really saying what I said, in the short term, computerization leads to job losses, whether it is among the supermarket checkers (because of self check out machines), travel agents or secretaries (because of word processing, voice recognition etc). I've already stated that I believe you are wrong. Word recognition can be a great thing or a horror story. The store I work in already has people complaining about the "voice" they listen to - a computerized voice and they only listen to it for a few moments. I know that's not the voice recognition you are talking about.

However, in the long term computerization has invariably lead to more jobs. 100 years ago there were no computers. Think of all the jobs that were existing 100 years ago that do not exist today (secretary, typist, copy clerk etc.). But think of how many more jobs have been created in the past 100 years, today we employ many more people that we did 100 years ago.
Not true. It was true but it's not anymore. People are being hired to work at home on their own computers and they are not there to anwer phones etc. No human contact again. A lawyer I spoke to told me a few months ago (obviously it's changed again) that had I become a conveyancing sec. I could name my own price and work at home. Anyone working at home is paying for their own equip. and losing the social side of life. No childcare I guess is a bonus since that would not be an issue but you will have one secretary doing the work of two at the very least.


It is an ongoing process. Jobs are lost due to computerization, new products, new services are created by computerization and that leads to more jobs. Where will the new jobs be created? We probably cannot even imagine that.

I think we cannot even imagine that because it's not going to happen. How many jobs do you think can be created? I believe I've asked you before - how many computer tech's are now out of jobs? Far too many of them.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I know that's not the voice recognition you are talking about.

Quite right, Islandpacific, I am talking of voice recognition in the context of word processing. With a good voice recognition software, it is not necessary to type a letter, you simple read it aloud, the computer catches it and converts it into a letter. Then all you have to do is proof read it and in general edit it if necessary. A good voice recognition software would reduce the time needed to type a letter to 1/3rd or 1/4th of the original time required.

Not true. It was true but it's not anymore.

I am glad you agree that it is true (that computerization has always created more jobs than it has destroyed). As to it not being true any more, how do you know? What is different this time that computerization won’t create more jobs? It always has so far.

A lawyer I spoke to told me a few months ago (obviously it's changed again) that had I become a conveyancing sec. I could name my own price and work at home.

You could name your own price? That sounds like a very good deal, did you take it?

Anyone working at home is paying for their own equip. and losing the social side of life.

Perhaps. But on the flip side, a mother can stay with her kids and work from home, so I assume many women welcome this option. Anyway, there are many other avenues for social side, one can go to bar, movie, night club, church etc.

I think we cannot even imagine that because it's not going to happen.

No Islandpacific. We cannot imagine because we don’t know what new products, what new services computers will generate. 50 or 100 years ago who would have imagined careers like Systems analyst, Web page Designer, Data Administrator etc.?

Indeed, this argument has been used since the beginning of the computer age. When computers were just starting out, and were as big as a room (and very slow), there was a big movement against the computers, the argument was that computers will take jobs away from people.

Indeed, this attitude predates the computers. During industrial revolution, in Britain there was a strong movement against machines, the argument was that one machine can do the job of ten men, and it will lead to massive unemployment.

Have you heard of Luddites? Luddites used to smash the machines, smash the equipment whenever they could. I can only describe your attitude as computer age Luddite.

I believe I've asked you before - how many computer tech's are now out of jobs? Far too many of them.

No doubt some have lost their jobs. But give it another 10 or 15 years, my prediction sit that many more jobs will be created than destroyed. It has always happened before this and I see no reason why it cannot continue to happen.

 

[VanIsle]

I know that's not the voice recognition you are talking about.

Quite right, Islandpacific, I am talking of voice recognition in the context of word processing. With a good voice recognition software, it is not necessary to type a letter, you simple read it aloud, the computer catches it and converts it into a letter. Then all you have to do is proof read it and in general edit it if necessary. A good voice recognition software would reduce the time needed to type a letter to 1/3rd or 1/4th of the original time required.

Not true. It was true but it's not anymore.

I am glad you agree that it is true (that computerization has always created more jobs than it has destroyed). As to it not being true any more, how do you know? What is different this time that computerization won’t create more jobs? It always has so far.

A lawyer I spoke to told me a few months ago (obviously it's changed again) that had I become a conveyancing sec. I could name my own price and work at home.

You could name your own price? That sounds like a very good deal, did you take it?

Anyone working at home is paying for their own equip. and losing the social side of life.

Perhaps. But on the flip side, a mother can stay with her kids and work from home, so I assume many women welcome this option. Anyway, there are many other avenues for social side, one can go to bar, movie, night club, church etc.

I think we cannot even imagine that because it's not going to happen.

No Islandpacific. We cannot imagine because we don’t know what new products, what new services computers will generate. 50 or 100 years ago who would have imagined careers like Systems analyst, Web page Designer, Data Administrator etc.?

Indeed, this argument has been used since the beginning of the computer age. When computers were just starting out, and were as big as a room (and very slow), there was a big movement against the computers, the argument was that computers will take jobs away from people.

Indeed, this attitude predates the computers. During industrial revolution, in Britain there was a strong movement against machines, the argument was that one machine can do the job of ten men, and it will lead to massive unemployment.

Have you heard of Luddites? Luddites used to smash the machines, smash the equipment whenever they could. I can only describe your attitude as computer age Luddite.

I believe I've asked you before - how many computer tech's are now out of jobs? Far too many of them.

No doubt some have lost their jobs. But give it another 10 or 15 years, my prediction sit that many more jobs will be created than destroyed. It has always happened before this and I see no reason why it cannot continue to happen.

Well, this would be easier to answer if I added a 3rd colour but it could become more confusing. I admit that if you were not responding to my own post, I probably wouldn't have had an idea about what you were talking about. So, I'll just make a weak attempt here as it is well past bedtime.
Voice recognition can be a great addition to the computer world in the sense of people who cannot type because they do not have the use of their hands. Computers touch nearly all facets of life. Even my grandson's new wheel chair will work via the touch of his head. Lean on the head band to the left to turn left for example. However, in years to come, with the younger world moving into the 40 something's or less or more - whatever, voice recognition for someone like a lawyer will eradicate the secretary for example. I'm sure the programs will (if they do not already) have a print command. The biggest job a lawyer et al will have to do is fold a document and put it in the envelope when it comes to correspondence. In regard to your question about did I take on the job of conveyancer - no. I never was a conveyancer but it would not be that hard. Had the market not changed so drastically so fast I would do it in a heartbeat. If the market looks like it's improving, I'll go for it. Why stand on my feet when I can stay home and use the computer. I did a lot more than answer the phone at the law firm so I have a basic understanding of many things that happen in a law firm.
I believe I already mentioned that it would indeed be a way for parents to avoid having to send their children to a day care.
Systems analyst, Web page Designer, Data Administrator etc.? This is what I was talking about earlier. There seems to be so many of "the above" who are out of work and if they are not out of work they are constantly changing work. It seems like company after company closes down. Unless you are really special, a web page designer isn't needed all that often. A lot of people can do it themselves. Not me but lots can and do.
I suppose there was a day when people feared the big huge computers and that would have been a time when no one ever imagined a computer like a laptop doing all it does so simply. The reality is, no one ever thought that computers would really be more common than the television. Computers have already replaced people in childrens' lives. Why do you think things like Wii have been developed?
Helps people get up off the couch. We are becoming a very anti-social society as we use computers as company more than we do people. If that wasn't true, why are we all here? We bought a computer as soon as they came on the Canadian market and one has been in our house ever since. In fact, I can safely say that we probably have no less than 5 - 6 in the house. Just 2 that are set up for use. We don't visit like we used to and we don't invite friends over like we used to. The kids come over and all they do is play on their own little games or borrow our computers. With all 5 of them here, if I set up a computer for at least the 4 of them, they would quietly sit down and stare at the screen, playing a computer game and never speak to each other. How's that for progress?
Yes - I have heard of a Luddite and I heard it on here. Maybe it was you or maybe it was Spade. I'm sure someone will step forward and say. I'm not a luddite. I believe computers have a place but they will destroy jobs. They will destroy life as we know it.

 

[TenPenny]

The next step in the self-serve cashier system is the RFID - no cashier system, where every item in the store has an RFID chip, and when you leave the store with your cart, you swipe your card, and are billed for everything in the cart.

Much simpler.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The next step in the self-serve cashier system is the RFID - no cashier system, where every item in the store has an RFID chip, and when you leave the store with your cart, you swipe your card, and are billed for everything in the cart.

Much simpler.

How will they handle fruit and vegetables (which have to be weighed)? Or will they have prepackaged fruit and vegetable packets (which will be weighed beforehand and will have a RFID chip)?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I can see even a further advance. Why is it necessary to swipe the card? If you have the card anywhere on your body (in your pocket, purse, wallet etc.), it should be possible for a machine to detect it and automatically scan it. Your card will have your photo on it, and the computer will check your photo with your face to detect any fraud.

So I can well imagine that at the checkout all you may have is a barrier. You take your cart full of groceries and approach the barrier. As you approach the barrier, the machine scans your card, charges the amount to your account and raises the barrier. Checkout is done literally in seconds.

If something is wrong and your account cannot be charged, the barrier stays closed, and a human operator will sort out the problem.

If that happens, supermarket checker will really be a thing of the past. Perhaps this may be a possible application of nanotechnology, I don’t’ know.

 

[Trex]

You probably don’t’ get out of the country all that much, givepeaceachance. When I visited Britain three years ago, in 2006, everybody there had cards with chip in it. In fact, when I tried to use my credit card (with no chip and which had to be swiped), I had a bit of difficulty.

When I tried to use it to buy merchandize at the Gilbert and Sullivan Festival, he at first wasn’t sure how to charge transactions to a credit card without a chip, he brought somebody else. He tried and failed the first time. The second time he succeeded.

I tried to use my credit card at a big food supermarket, Morrison. The checker told me that she was not allowed to accept credit cards without chips. She called her supervisor, who swiped my card (evidently the checker did not have the authority to swipe the card).

I was there for two weeks, I must have gone to Morrison six or seven times. Each time the checker had to call her supervisor to swipe the card. I went to Britain again in 2008, the same thing.

The point of all this is that credit cards with chip have been commonplace in Europe for years. They are just coming to North America. Compared to Europe, we are in the Stone Age.

^^
Agreed.

If you are planning on traveling, it is always in your best interests to try and insure you are using universally compatible credit cards.

Years and years ago I was spending a lot of time in South America.
MY TD credit cards refused to function in local banks.
Thus I ended up footing the bill for a lot of long distance confirmation calls.
Local businesses had no problems with them however.
A business associate could stick his RBC card into the most beat up old banking machines in tiny little Amazon villages and obtain all his required info.
Turns out TD cards were not being programmed to international standards.

Several years ago I was on a quest to insure my friends who planned on traveling insured that their credit cards were encoded with a PIN #'s.
Years ago nobody bothered to insured Canadian credit cards had PIN's.
That could stop you cold from banking in the EU.
Now encoding a PIN on your credit card is fairly standard.

Now that I do all of my business in the EU I have the same chip problem that Sir JP outlined above.
Neither of my TD credit cards are chipped.
The Europeans have been using chip readers for so long now that some businesses don't even know how to deal with a non chipped credit card.
They have to root around under the counter and hopefully find an old style paper receipt card machine.

If you are planning on traveling it could be worth your while to insure that your plastic functions in other places.
It can suck to be suddenly broke in a strange place.

On the upside I sure like those portable credit card machines that all the Euro restaurants and bars are now using. Makes it much more difficult to double swipe, hack, or steal your credit card data.

Trex

 

[Wallace]

I can't see how it's more secure. All the merchants I have talked to say that people leave their cards in the machines all the time.

So all an unscrupulous merchant needs to do is ...

(don't try this at home kids)

have a video camera trained on the VISA machine.
Wait until someone leaves their card.
Look through the video to determine the PIN code.
Buy a bundle of stuff in the next half hour.
Throw away the card.

 

[L Gilbert]

I don't want a chip unless it comes with fish.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

If you are planning on traveling it could be worth your while to insure that your plastic functions in other places.
It can suck to be suddenly broke in a strange place.

Trex, my TD Gold Select Visa card lets me have free Travelers Checks. I always get at least 1000 $ worth of Travelers Checks with me when I go abroad (except to USA). I usually take American Express checks, in US$. I can always deposit the unused amount in my US $ account in the TD Bank. So the entire transaction of buying Travelers checks and depositing them again in the bank is free.

But that gives me an extra insurance, so that I don’t get stuck in a European country. Any bank in Europe will give you Euros for Travelers checks.

My TD Visa doesn’t have a chip in it. However, my CIBC Aerogold (air miles) visa sent me a card with chip in it about a year ago.

 

[JLM]

I don't want a chip unless it comes with fish.

Me too, if I get into financial trouble when I go "travelling", a bag of potato chips would do me until I get home. :lol::lol:

 

[Trex]

If you are planning on traveling it could be worth your while to insure that your plastic functions in other places.
It can suck to be suddenly broke in a strange place.

Trex, my TD Gold Select Visa card lets me have free Travelers Checks. I always get at least 1000 $ worth of Travelers Checks with me when I go abroad (except to USA). I usually take American Express checks, in US$. I can always deposit the unused amount in my US $ account in the TD Bank. So the entire transaction of buying Travelers checks and depositing them again in the bank is free.

But that gives me an extra insurance, so that I don’t get stuck in a European country. Any bank in Europe will give you Euros for Travelers checks.

My TD Visa doesn’t have a chip in it. However, my CIBC Aerogold (air miles) visa sent me a card with chip in it about a year ago.

A perfectly sound system and one that probably can be recommended to tourists.

In my particular case I am back and forth between Canada and Europe like a yo-yo as all my consulting work is done in Europe.
Frankly I cannot be bothered dithering about with travelers cheques.
I keep a ziptop baggie with my paper pounds and another with my sterling coins.
I do the same for Euro's and Canadian currency.
I switch out my currencies as soon as I hit Heathrow or Schiphol.
I pitch the rest of the currencies and coins in a locked pouch of my carry-on.
I try and make sure I have the equivelent of around $100 or so in each currency.
I run two gold cards and a debit card that are fully functioning and paid off.
Then just hit the bank machines as required.
Works a treat, never had a problem.
The only time I really had a real problem was years ago when I ate a burger in a known Triad bar in Hong Kong( and no, I didnt know).
When I went to check out of my hotel with about a $1000.00 hotel bill none of my credit cards was working.
Interpol was monitoring the Triad bar and had notified the Canadian RCMP that my visa number had come up in association with the bar.
The RCMP had every one of my accounts in Canada frozen, even my direct payments were shut down.
All over a burger and two beers.
That was a serious pain in the ass and I really could have used some travellers cheques that day.


I am posting from Humberside as I make this post and I have to say the only problem I keep encountering is my non chipped credit cards.
Some of the shopkeepers look at my Canadian cards like they are functional antiques.
I suppose really they are by Euro standards.

Trex

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Humbderside. Don’t’ forget to try black pudding and mash, the traditional breakfast of the region.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I can't see how it's more secure. All the merchants I have talked to say that people leave their cards in the machines all the time.

Wallace, it isn’t more secure from customer’s standpoint. Customer already has security. If you report the loss of the card in a timely fashion, you are not liable for any charges resulting from misuse of the card (except I think to the extent of 50$).

However, if you lose the card and an unscrupulous character finds it, it will be more difficult to use the card if he also has to enter the pin code (as opposed to without the pin code, where he only has to forge the signature).

So it is more secure from credit card company’s viewpoint. I don’t think it makes any difference to the customer; credit cards are already quite secure for the customer.