Technical question on WTC collapse

[danieltowsey]

Its really easy to fool a fool..

Wow is all I can say. There is thousands of articles of proof available on the net about this topic. But I have to say that only an intelligent person well take the time to research it and be able to understand it. Since most are fools, that leaves very few that will understand. As far as conspiracy theorists go..If there was no conspiracies there would be no theories...The conspiracies are real....


Hey have you ever used a kerosene heater?...did it melt?...did it turn red?...airplane fuel is kerosene.Does the steel in the airplane engines melt?

I was a welder for years and I have to say that a welders cut torch burns alot hotter than 2000F I thinks its much closer to 3000F.

I read from a guy who says hes a welder make it sound like its really easy to heat metal to weaken it.....it can only be done wilth torches or such.There is absolutely nothing in those buildings that could of burned at that tempurature and heated the metal that hot to weaken it.Plus the heat source (such as a torch) would have to be only inches away..The fires were only low tempurature fires..Thats very easy to prove..The hotter the flame on a torch the cleaner it burns until it reaches the tempurature needed to cut steel..and at this point the flame makes no smoke. You can see all that black smoke coming from the towers is black from low tempurature fires.

So what produced those huge pools of red molten steel in the base of the rubble ? They were still molten more than two months later...It was the thermite..The kind with sulfer in it, that only the government has. Which was used to (melt) cut the steel. All that (cut) melted steel accumulated in that pool of molten steel.

Now heres an experiment for you...I dare you to make a bombfire with any of the flammable materials you would find in an office building...except wood..since the towers had no wood structures in them.Oh sht..why not throw in as much wood as you want.. Now throw in as much kerosene as you want. Now suspend a steel girder above it..now go ahead light the fire...Let me know when that steel melts and ends up in a molten puddle...hahahhahahahahahahhaahah (oh important note..you only have an hour to produce that molten steel)


Anyway it doesn't matter what I may say..I don't know anyway to change a fool to an intelligent free thinker...except by using truth.

The world is seriously lacking free thinkers..and understand that without truth there is no freedom...you are all brainwashed leemings..

except for the few of you..you know who you are....

We need a freedom revolution...freedom from lies and deceptions.

...Lies weaken your brains..and truth strengthen it.

 

[danieltowsey]

Free thinkers welcome

Come check out my Yahoo Group..Conspiracies Club

http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/conspiraciesclub

 

[Hotshot]

possibly we should stop arguing and thrashing about trying to work out who to blame, but make some effort into preventing such things happening again and planning for when they do, in order to minimise fatalities.

Like maybe working and living in a bunker 10 feet down.

As long as there are terrorists, you are at risk. That is just a fact you have to live with.

 

[CDNBear]

The Maximum tempature of the hydrocarbon fire is 1517F, which is about 800C, not 1000C, Wtc fire were diffuse, which means way much lower than 800C, the Dark smoke support that claim, especially in the south tower.

Do you know the difference between C* and F*?

How were the fires difused? They were in an enclosed space.

True dark smoke from a wood fire means it's starving, but this isn't your Gramma's fire pit. This is a bussiness tower full of everything under the sun. If you have ever seen a building burn, you would realize how absolutely rediculous that point is.

You can argue temperatures till you're blue in the face. I know I can manipulate structural steel, with some heat and a little force. Are you that daft, that you believe structural columns surrounded by aviation fuel and god knows what else burn away in a confined space, is not going to corrupt the steel supports?

If so you have never seen a dumpster fire either, and I have some prime real estate in Florida for ya too.

 

[Logic 7]

Do you know the difference between C* and F*?

How were the fires difused? They were in an enclosed space.

True dark smoke from a wood fire means it's starving, but this isn't your Gramma's fire pit. This is a bussiness tower full of everything under the sun. If you have ever seen a building burn, you would realize how absolutely rediculous that point is.

You can argue temperatures till you're blue in the face. I know I can manipulate structural steel, with some heat and a little force. Are you that daft, that you believe structural columns surrounded by aviation fuel and god knows what else burn away in a confined space, is not going to corrupt the steel supports?

If so you have never seen a dumpster fire either, and I have some prime real estate in Florida for ya too.

I asked you,
Where does it say, the steel structure was all sorrounded by fire on 9-11? and you never came back.

 

[hermanntrude]

this post needs to die. logic and illogic cannot fight.

 

[Johnny Utah]

By the looks of things, the towers only came straight down for a bit before they sort of exploded outward near the end. So much for the controlled demo idea.

Yeah the pics show the collapse of the WTC Towers was not because of a controlled demolition, but that will never matter to the conspiracy theory Moonbats who need a conspiracy to justify themselves..

 

[CDNBear]

I asked you,
Where does it say, the steel structure was all sorrounded by fire on 9-11? and you never came back.

Ummmm, because ITN answer your question. Unlike you, I hate beating a dead horse.

Go buy some canned beans, empty the can, fill it full of gasoline.

Get a metal garbage can, flip it on its side, and place some stick structures in it.

place a source of ignition in the center of the stick structure, a candle will do. Now place a small piece or wood or tinfoil, folded so it will not be knocked down and throw the gas at the structure and see what happens.

My youngest son caim up with this demo for you. He's 10. He understands what happens when 1000's of gallons of jet fuel explode and engulf a confined area. After this, you might to.

Just a note.

Like I mentioned before, I have cousins that work for Mohawk High steel. I asked them about the controlled explosion idea, because after watching it a couple times, I was starting to see fuzzy's point. The WTC Towers, 1 and 2, were a exo-skeletal type structure. I have no idea what the correct term is for this type of structure, but it is indeed what the WTC was build like. The main support and strength was in the out side walls. So when the top portions collapsed, the outer walls acted like a funnel, until the debris could no longer be contained. Hence the explosion at the end of the fall, and the erie looking skeletal walls standing in ground zero, in all the photos.

 

[danieltowsey]

47 Core Columns

The strength of the buildings was in the 47 core columns, not on the outside walls.

But what about my previous post about the 1500F degree red hot molten steel that was found at the base of the buildings more than two months later? Where did that come from. By the way combustible fires can only burn to 875F degrees tops. Oh and heat rises so how did the core columns fail?

Your post about a metal garbage can burnt with gasoline is a joke...You should use Kerosene, since thats what airplane fuel is and then try using thick high quality structural steel.....Don't forget that other lie about WTC7 coming down. I have to say that its the biggest scam of all time commited on some people, some of who think they are smarter than the rest... The people who know the truth are affraid to tell...thats very understandable....

 

[CDNBear]

The strength of the buildings was in the 47 core columns, not on the outside walls.

But what about my previous post about the 1500F degree red hot molten steel that was found at the base of the buildings more than two months later? Where did that come from. By the way combustible fires can only burn to 875F degrees tops. Oh and heat rises so how did the core columns fail?

Your post about a metal garbage can burnt with gasoline is a joke...You should use Kerosene, since thats what airplane fuel is and then try using thick high quality structural steel.....Don't forget that other lie about WTC7 coming down. I have to say that its the biggest scam of all time commited on some people, some of who think they are smarter than the rest... The people who know the truth are affraid to tell...thats very understandable....

Um, the completely melted steel found in the "pit" two months after the fact, had smoldered for days, in a confined space, surounded by combustible materials. Even a first year probie Firefighter knows what happens in conditions such as these. The heat has no escape route, just look at garbage bin fires. You know those big bins in strip malls? My guess is, you have no idea about steel, heat, combustion, or any other relivant education needed to complete a thought about the WTC.

The "core' colomns, you so intellegently pointed out in the center, were merely framing for the elevator shaft, the strongest part of the center of the building, it was designed and built to support it's own weight, not the weight of the entire top section of a building, in on swift thrust.

The entire building was designed to maximize usable space. the big beefy structural steel was in the outer colomns, which were tied across to each other like a web with the center of the building, being the elevator shaft, an almost free floating structure onto itself.

The engineers realised the error in this design, being, if there were a catostrophic failure in the upper levels, the center of the building could nout support the mass. Hence the next generation, the Sears Tower, was designed much differently. Each section was capped. This would prevent such a failure to transmit to the lower levels. In affect segrigating the damaged upper floors if they were to collaps.

Now before you go gettin all hot and bothered. High steel work, runs in my family and I do contract work for North America's leading elevator manufacturer. I know what I'm talking about, it's my business, and I'm doing real well at it.

To correct your comment,,,

Only the intellegent people know reality when they see it. Now go put your tinfoil hat on and wait for your weekly visit and anal probe, from the aliens. Are they still sticking it in your ear?

 

[CDNBear]

daniel wrote.
I read from a guy who says hes a welder make it sound like its really easy to heat metal to weaken it.....it can only be done wilth torches or such.There is absolutely nothing in those buildings that could of burned at that tempurature and heated the metal that hot to weaken it.Plus the heat source (such as a torch) would have to be only inches away..The fires were only low tempurature fires..Thats very easy to prove..The hotter the flame on a torch the cleaner it burns until it reaches the tempurature needed to cut steel..and at this point the flame makes no smoke. You can see all that black smoke coming from the towers is black from low tempurature fires.
End quote

You really are brain dead aren't you?

The temp needed to cut steel and the temps needed to manipulate steel, are so different, as to be a foriegn language to you.

Hot metal caulking, like hacks in factories do,is not welding. So you can claim to have been the guy who invented welding for all I care. I can back up my sh*t with info from CWB, TSSA. The two agencies I hold 14 tickets from as well as my Red Seal.

What you know about steel, wouldn't feed a gnat, what you don't know about steel, would fill an ocean.

 

[MMMike]

The "core' colomns, you so intellegently pointed out in the center, were merely framing for the elevator shaft, the strongest part of the center of the building, it was designed and built to support it's own weight, not the weight of the entire top section of a building, in on swift thrust.

The entire building was designed to maximize usable space. the big beefy structural steel was in the outer colomns, which were tied across to each other like a web with the center of the building, being the elevator shaft, an almost free floating structure onto itself.

The engineers realised the error in this design, being, if there were a catostrophic failure in the upper levels, the center of the building could nout support the mass. Hence the next generation, the Sears Tower, was designed much differently. Each section was capped. This would prevent such a failure to transmit to the lower levels. In affect segrigating the damaged upper floors if they were to collaps.

I want to correct a few of these assertions. Number one, you are misinterpreting the role of the 'core' columns. They not act only as framing for the elevators, they are integral supports for the floor framing. The floor consists of composite trusses that span from the exterior columns to a girder that runs along the core columns. They are as important in resisting gravity loads as are the perimeter columns. The perimeter columns are beefier (is that a word?) because they also act together as the lateral-resisting frame.

Number two, not a highrise in the world is designed to resist the loads from a total collapse of a number of floors above. Yes, redundancy is designed in to a certain extent, but it is not economically feasible to design it to take the loads from a WTC-like collapse.

 

[CDNBear]

I want to correct a few of these assertions. Number one, you are misinterpreting the role of the 'core' columns. They not act only as framing for the elevators, they are integral supports for the floor framing. The floor consists of composite trusses that span from the exterior columns to a girder that runs along the core columns. They are as important in resisting gravity loads as are the perimeter columns. The perimeter columns are beefier (is that a word?) because they also act together as the lateral-resisting frame.

My point, as muddled as it may have been, and perhaps over simplified for the likes of daniel, was that the structure was designed as an "exo-skeleton". Like a bug. Yes the core columns took load, but they were not designed to withstand any additional loading, other then that of their purpose. Thanx for the correction. I'll try not to over simplify or exagerate in the future. I just get a lil annoyed with the tinfoilers.

Number two, not a highrise in the world is designed to resist the loads from a total collapse of a number of floors above. Yes, redundancy is designed in to a certain extent, but it is not economically feasible to design it to take the loads from a WTC-like collapse.

I did not refer to a total collaps, as in the WTC, I was referring to the fact that the energy that was released on the structure beneath the impact point, when the upper floors collapsed would not have been transferred as efficiently or as catostrophically as in the WTC. In affect "theoretically" (and we all know what I think of Engineering theories) saving a good portion of the structure. In this case, because of the change in design, you have seen a horizontal release of the energy, not the completely vertical one as in the WTC.

 

[danieltowsey]

Your nothing but a fool. And you absolutely don't know what your talking about. The 47 core columns were the supporting structure. And the elevators were not in the columns they were beside them.You sure are a fancy talker. but thats all you are.Whens the last time you took a look at blueprints of the WTC buildings? I am sure you've never seen them, and if you did. Your not a structural engineer and your not an architect. I am sure you wouldn't understand what youd be looking at. Thats clear from your comments. You also ignored my question. What melted the steel to create that pile of 1500F molten steel? Which was still there two months later. Not just a few days later. Combustibles can only burn to 875F degrees..Only specialized chemicals can burn hotter. And they have to be presurerized to melt steel or the use of THERMITE would do it. So I guess your Kerosene heater turned red hot, melted down to 1500f degrees and burnt your house dowm..HUH? So is your tinhat a designer version?..Your sure doing a good job at ignoring what I have previously written..Your not doing a service to anyone by attacking me...But then again the messenger of truth is always attacked.Look what they did to Jesus...You don't have to be religious to know that Jesus really existed.By the way he never wrote a word. He only tried to bring the corruption in the government to the attention of the ignorant. Even the ones that have lived high off the hog all their lives, and thus don't have an ounce of compassion in their body. And have a closed mind and have never had the need to open their minds. You see hardship usually creates more intelligent people...The ones that are spoiled are usually the meanist.So just because you have made a good living in the steel business means nothing....You see most people can not recognise or understand genious. For genious is the ability to take the most complicated and simplify it to its lowest denominator...And then you hope that the simpletons well understand...What that has been simplified for them.I have asked a very simple question..What created that 1500F degree molten steel...I have no interest in anything else you might say...Just answer that one question....Signed the Genious with the tinhat...

 

[CDNBear]

Your nothing but a fool. And you absolutely don't know what your talking about. The 47 core columns were the supporting structure. And the elevators were not in the columns they were beside them.You sure are a fancy talker. but thats all you are.Whens the last time you took a look at blueprints of the WTC buildings? I am sure you've never seen them, and if you did. Your not a structural engineer and your not an architect. I am sure you wouldn't understand what youd be looking at. Thats clear from your comments. You also ignored my question. What melted the steel to create that pile of 1500F molten steel? Which was still there two months later. Not just a few days later. Combustibles can only burn to 875F degrees..Only specialized chemicals can burn hotter. And they have to be presurerized to melt steel or the use of THERMITE would do it. So I guess your Kerosene heater turned red hot, melted down to 1500f degrees and burnt your house dowm..HUH? So is your tinhat a designer version?..Your sure doing a good job at ignoring what I have previously written..Your not doing a service to anyone by attacking me...But then again the messenger of truth is always attacked.Look what they did to Jesus...You don't have to be religious to know that Jesus really existed.By the way he never wrote a word. He only tried to bring the corruption in the government to the attention of the ignorant. Even the ones that have lived high off the hog all their lives, and thus don't have an ounce of compassion in their body. And have a closed mind and have never had the need to open their minds. You see hardship usually creates more intelligent people...The ones that are spoiled are usually the meanist.So just because you have made a good living in the steel business means nothing....You see most people can not recognise or understand genious. For genious is the ability to take the most complicated and simplify it to its lowest denominator...And then you hope that the simpletons well understand...What that has been simplified for them.I have asked a very simple question..What created that 1500F degree molten steel...I have no interest in anything else you might say...Just answer that one question....Signed the Genious with the tinhat...

The whole family enjoyed your ramblings, thanx for the early mornin' haha, your addition to the levity of the day is duley noted.

You are no more a genious, then a you are a hamster. Spinning away in the wheel of your sad little life.

Can you point me in the direction of this tidbit of information, that the steel was still "molten" 2 months later. I can not find any info on that at all. As for the presence of "Thermite" and/or "Cordite" at ground zero. The chemical analysis that was conducted, for compounds that would be in both chemicals, but are also present in any manner of equipment found in the WTC.

I read and interpret blue prints on an almost daily basis, I have welded and build steel structuers all over the world, from 1000's of feet under ground to the tops of buildings, built equipment in th ethird world, welded framing for high end automotive industry. My work is impecable and my skills excellent. My education has not ended. You on the other hand have never been anything but a waste of time, space and oxygen. Your education ended the minute you latched on to one train of thought, and refuse to accept the rational of reality.

I know, I know, the whole of the scientific community is wrong and the tinfoilers are all right. Keep dreamin' you hapless drip. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an un-armed man, ramble on.

 

[danieltowsey]

reply to CDNbear

Oh I touched a nerve....but your still wrong..when as you said they heat metal to manipulate it...They always use speciallized chemicals that burn at high temperatures...There was no such chemicals in the fire at the WTC...

But if I were to believe you they probably used wood...but even a blacksmith has to put the steel in an enclosure and it takes quiet a while to heat the steel red hot.And they use very cheap quality steel to do that..That condition never excisted at the WTC..it was a wide open area..especially due to the huge holes the planes left...Steel can only be heated hot enough to manipulte under tightly controlled conditions....So now you probably want me to believe that the WTC turned into a blast furnace.Nothing in those buildings burnt hotter than 875F degress except the Kerosene. Which burnt up outside of the buildings in a matter of a few seconds. I am sure you believe that you can heat structural steel with a plumbers torch and then you can manipulate it...try that some time..hahahha


Oh thanks for pointing out for me that you have no knowledge to the facts I have mentioned. About The molten steel and the thermite...That makes your qualifications clear. You see to be a genious one of the requirements is the ability to gain knowledge through research.. Which you have proven to me that you have not done or don't know how to do...I could tell you where this information is but just for you I won't. I enjoy keeping you ignorant..But heres a clue.. millions of people know where I got my information from...A symposium of many experts and eyewitnesses was held and televised on CPAC..oops you missed that to. It was broadcast to over 500 americans cities...Only those that are a little brighter than you would of been interested in watching it. but thats only to mention one place...there are thousands of articles on the net about the molten steel, including many eyewitness statements. Hey there is even one from a guy who worked for the demolition company..He was so shocked that he put the information out to the world on the net....You better go now and watch that tele..you need your daily dose of radiation from it, and don't be in the closet about your tinhat..its ok we know you have one..you need it to be able to receive those brainwashing signals from your tele....is yours the more expensive model with the antenae...since your so well off I am sure you did the American consumer thing and bought the best....

 

[CDNBear]

reply to CDNbear

Oh I touched a nerve....but your still wrong..when as you said they heat metal to manipulate it...They always use speciallized chemicals that burn at high temperatures...There was no such chemicals in the fire at the WTC...

But if I were to believe you they probably used wood...but even a blacksmith has to put the steel in an enclosure and it takes quiet a while to heat the steel red hot.And they use very cheap quality steel to do that..That condition never excisted at the WTC..it was a wide open area..especially due to the huge holes the planes left...Steel can only be heated hot enough to manipulte under tightly controlled conditions....So now you probably want me to believe that the WTC turned into a blast furnace.Nothing in those buildings burnt hotter than 875F degress except the Kerosene. Which burnt up outside of the buildings in a matter of a few seconds. I am sure you believe that you can heat structural steel with a plumbers torch and then you can manipulate it...try that some time..hahahha

It didn't melt in the Towers when they were in one piece you boob, it melted in the conditions created in the "pit". The steel only had to lose its stability in place to fail. OMG, you are so lost.

Do you have any idea the diference between a plumbers torch and a welders torch, I think not, but I can, ahve and will continue to manipulate steel, in th emanner of all steel workers, for years to come. If you can not stop twisting the words of others and just simply put, making up your own words to replace what you want hear, then I will not waste anymore time with you. Your lost, set out Sundays best and put you tinfoil hat on ass head, you'll need it.

Have you ever noticed how I pop in and out, I'm sitting at my computer, going over either contracts or editing blueprints in AutoCad,( I doubt you will even know what that is, but I'll drop it on you anyways.), I get bored or my eyes start to get tired of spinning objects, so I come here to laugh at you and then go back to work.

 

[danieltowsey]

Oh I am glad your sitting at your screen..You talk about me twisting words..I am not twisting anything..What I have said from the begining has not changed...Sorry but you've gone out of your way to show me your ignorance...I appreciate one thing from our conversation. You love to glute about your abilities.You haven't been able to refute anything I have said..all you've shown me is that you have a huge ego...That shows hows simple you are..I am glad that you have been entertained by me...Its true then what they say its really easy to entertain a simple mind..Other get educated, but not you..You see I am sure that others who well come along.and read this post....the intelligent ones that is (not you of course) well learn and think for themselves about what I have said.So now you want me to believe that that pile of rubble just miraculously heated up and turned to melted steel,,by its self..OH please give me some more of your egoistical wit oh pray I am am so simple please please please tell me how that happened...(the melted steel that is, since you already lost what I am talking about)

 

[CDNBear]

Oh I am glad your sitting at your screen..You talk about me twisting words..I am not twisting anything..What I have said from the begining has not changed...Sorry but you've gone out of your way to show me your ignorance...I appreciate one thing from our conversation. You love to glute about your abilities.You haven't been able to refute anything I have said..all you've shown me is that you have a huge ego...That shows hows simple you are..I am glad that you have been entertained by me...Its true then what they say its really easy to entertain a simple mind..Other get educated, but not you..You see I am sure that others who well come along.and read this post....the intelligent ones that is (not you of course) well learn and think for themselves about what I have said.So now you want me to believe that that pile of rubble just miraculously heated up and turned to melted steel,,by its self..OH please give me some more of your egoistical wit oh pray I am am so simple please please please tell me how that happened...(the melted steel that is, since you already lost what I am talking about)

Well that was predictable, you couldn't answer the question, where did you get the information that the steel was still molten two months later? Halfwit.

I have an ego?

I'm Fred Flinstone incarnant. I know I'm arrogant, I know I can be wrong, I know I haven't stop learning, but I also know physics and reality when I see it. You on the other hand, live in a fantasy world, when did I ever say you could manipulate steel with a plumbers torch. Your grip on reality is tenuous at best. Leave free thinking to those that actually can formulate a thought.

You are now more then pure hyperbol, period.

 

[danieltowsey]

wow now your showing you can't read...I said you would probably want me to believe that...I did answer your question..Your amazing you can't read...I recommend you start doing some research...and take a pill..this thinking I am making you do must surely be giving you a headache..So you also think that those two tiny fires in WTC 7 brought that building down too...You'll believe anything that the tube tells you..but can't think for your self..

You can only formulate a thought while your in the box...You think your supposed credentials makes you smart..They only prove that you can memorize what others have thought you....Try teaching yourself and do some independent research..that might help you on your way to thinking for yourself....I have been wasting way to much time with you...You can't responde to anything I have said without attacking me...You selectively ignore every points I make...Sorry I can't help you....oh by the way..it was a cruise missile that hit the Pentagon....Seven of the so called terrorists that were never seen on any boarding videos and their names weren't even on the passenger lists have been found alive and well living all around Europe..They have been interviewed on live television news and have been seen by millions.....There is so much information available now on the net...You obviously have never read or seen any of it....Go check out the Loose Change 2E video....There are plenty of others....If you had not personally attacked me from the begining I would of probably went out of my way to do for you..what you have not done for yourself and got you some links to many items on this topic......