Start a new party?

Alberta'sfinest

Electoral Member
Dec 9, 2005
217
0
16
First, I'd just like to say hi to everyone here as it's my first post.

Recently I've been becoming more and more annoyed with my choices of representation, and I've come to the conclusion that a new political party needs to be formed. I find that my ideas are very common to many people, but there isn't a single party that has these same common ideals. Right now i'm an NDP member, as they are the closest to my beliefs, but they tend to be not fiscally responsible enough to do the job we need.
What do I believe in? Why?
I believe in maximizing the rights of Canadians and instituting viable social programs while eliminating those that aren't. I'd maximize rights by abolishing laws that target victimless crimes that were put in place to appease the majority. Some of these laws includes gay rights issues, drug prohibition, and general laws that are more costly to enforce than the detriment they cause. Gay marriage is a no brainer as the effect of homosexuals getting married has nothing to do with government, it's a religious issue and shouldn't be enforced. Drug prohibition should be ended and regulated. Marijuana should legalized and taxed to subsidize the costs inflicted on society from it's use. Keeping it illegal doesn't stop useage and may even increase it. It also allows for a black market industry to flourish, which triggers a lot of spin-off crime like organized crimes and gangs. Special legislation that I thought up myself could be implimented to prevent big business or organized crime from taking over the industry, creating thousands of new jobs instead, adding another boost to our economy.

Healthcare is a viable social program. Healthcare improves the general health of all Canadians, and as a result there are less sick days taken which is good for the economy. Private healthcare is a total joke, and we should be rejecting it with disgust. The reason is that no matter how efficient you make it, there is still a profit margin, which means that a public system should be able to function at the same cost without a profit motive. I suggest we re-work the healthcare system so it's run like a business, and not like the bureaucracy. The reason they want to create a private sector is because a bunch of rich people want to make more money, or leach off the masses if you will. They want to do this two ways, by making profit directly off your sickness, and by providing insurance on top of your money in the public system. The worst part about the private sector is that they won't decrease lines at hospitals, which is the only problem with the current system. The reason is that it's supply and demand, if they provided a doctor to every person that needed one, they'd lose money. The only way they make money is to make sure their is a shortage of care, that way you have to pay whatever they want. We could regulate this, but our governments are corrupt and constantly trying to make little changes to regulations until they serve no purpose. If they do get their way and create a two-teired system, my policy would shift and we could simply put a 100% tax on services of this nature which would be directly allocated to the public system. Either way, I can make the burden on society the same and make those who'll profit from such companies, support the public system which would have less strain, and more money than ever to serve the rest of us.
I obviousely have a lot more that I could write on these issues, but basically the new party would be fiscally responsible socialists. I'm not against rich people or big business, my party would just ensure that they are held accountable to disparity, and business laws would be written to encourage social responsibility. I also believe we need to put our foot down on environmental issues, and even threaten to reduce oil production if countries don't use it efficiently as possible. We are the wealthiest nation in the world when it comes to resources, and we should be using that power to get what needs to be done done.
 

Cosmo

House Member
Jul 10, 2004
3,725
22
38
Victoria, BC
Welcome Alberta'sFinest! I like your vision. I'm in pretty much the same boat, politically. Makes it hard to decide where to place my vote.

Hope you enjoy the forum. You'll get lots of good political discussion here mixed with a big dose of good humour. Nice to have you on board!
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
back in my teens i thought about starting a new party but never bothered to persue it. Effective change sometimes requires revolution.
 

Calberty

Electoral Member
Dec 7, 2005
277
0
16
New parties usually fail because they start out with a whole bunch of 'obvious' facts that aren't so obvious to many others. They get all keened up and win between 0 to 5% of the vote then dwindle into the obscurity of a zillion other failed embryonic parties that came before them.

Before making a whole set of 'obvious' assumptions maybe it's best to have one or 2 core principals and then go out and ask real people what their real concerns are and then address those real issues. Most new parties have an inability to actually listen to 'Joe Average' but prefer to preach to Joe Average. They are convinced that the guy on the street will 'see the light' and mark their ballot accordingly. Surprise, surprise on election day .
 

Alberta'sfinest

Electoral Member
Dec 9, 2005
217
0
16
Actually, my plan is to get my name out there through the NDP, and then split off with my reputation and bring some others with me. I agree that most people don't see the light behind the ideas, but i've gotten around this before. The first step to helping someone see the light, is to let them know that there is one.
I don't think it would be easy for this to happen, and will probably take a good percentage of my life for it to succeed. I think what i'd do to gain popularity is to simply consolidate all those who are getting screwed by the current crappy policies. My core principles would be to strengthen communities and the economy, while creating the lowest possible cost of living for everyone. The less it costs to live, either the less you need to make, or the more you have to spend. A huge priority would be to promote sustainable living and develope sustainable communities. This one party policy is going to gaurentee success 4 years from now. It may suprise some people, but we are going to be experiencing a not widely known phenomenon called peak oil. The worse case scenario of peak oil would be total economic collapse or war, which are more likely than I want to believe. However, we could use the massive increase in oil prices to subsidize these sustainable communities and turn the problem into the solution, and no other party has a stance or a plan for this. The Americans are already showing the world that those with oil are a target of those who want it. We need change pretty soon though, or that worse case scenario is going to be our reality.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
I might be a new poster, but this is my two cents.

I've been a member of the NDP for about 3 years and a supporter for about 4 years before becoming a member. When I was a teenager I was on the hard left and joined a party left of the NDP. Of course they say in Europe if your not a communist/socialist when your 16 your don't have a heart and if you are not a Liberal when your 30 you don't have a brain. Well I left that party when I was 19 or 20ish because I felt Marxist like beliefs wern't realistic in the modern world. Seeing how the NDP has done so much for Canada and the CCF before them I joined the NDP after a few years of just supporting them. I wish I had done so when I was younger.

I myself can hardly be called a socialist anymore because my personal beliefs are somewhere between Social Democract and Liberalism. I also have the same problem with the NDP as you do. I think Fiscally they do have a problem, but I do think it's been asperated by the Liberals and conservatives as the NDP have been rated as one of the best governing parties in Canada in fiscal respouncibility with notable exception's of Ontario's NDP which governed during a hard time in Ontario's past.

Even so there are many inside of the NDP who do not wish to put the books infront of governing and who stands on largly Marxist princibles. One such oranized section of the NDP is the Socialist Caucus which thankfully has become a very small minority inside the NDP.

I think Spliting the NDP right now would hurt both NDP and the split off and help out the Conservatives and Liberals. Before any real 3rd party can be made, we have to have some sort of electoral reform. Our system is not set up to support new or small parties. Only a hand few have had any success. The CCF/NDP and the Reform Party. Of course electoral reform is for another thread.

But I would also love to see a NDP party which is clouser to the centre.
 

Calberty

Electoral Member
Dec 7, 2005
277
0
16
It might be easier to take a cadre of ethical people away from the NDP. Especially NDPers who aren't comfortable with the NDP promoting a THIEF, Svend Robinson, as one of their candidates.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
The way to allow new parties to be created is to allow parties into the municipal level governments. Rather than voting individuals to mayorships, have everyone elected to a Council and then the party with the majority vote elects a mayor or chair to the council.

In this way parties can form in different communities and spread. Over time they can consolidate in areas and regions. Eventually they can have enough following to got for a province, and then the federal as their policies become prefered by the majority of voters.

The way we have it now, it is impossible for new parties to form.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Re: RE: Start a new party?

iamcanadian said:
The way to allow new parties to be created is to allow parties into the municipal level governments. Rather than voting individuals to mayorships, have everyone elected to a Council and then the party with the majority vote elects a mayor or chair to the council.

In this way parties can form in different communities and spread. Over time they can consolidate in areas and regions. Eventually they can have enough following to got for a province, and then the federal as their policies become prefered by the majority of voters.

The way we have it now, it is impossible for new parties to form.

I agree with you at least in part. I'm running in the City of Toronto and I thought about mentioning this in my platform but after talking with people I found out that alot of people do not want parties at the local level, so I havn't changed my mind about this but there must be another way to do this.

I still think the best way of forming a new party is a change to the electoral system. PR would best fit new parties but would also cause alot of new issues. A Mixed system would be slightly harder for new parties but not as bad as FPTP.


Calberty, yeah I'm not hot on him either but I'm still a NDP voter... He's not in my riding so I don't have to worry about him. If I were in his Riding I'd most likely vote Green.... or..... Liberal... Or just a third party as a protest vote.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
Most places in the world have political parties in municipal levels as well as all levels. Canada is the only place I know that parties are hidden.

It is done this way to eliminate democratic power from the local levels where people are most impacted by government decisions; so that the bureaucrats can run everything without any public say in their decisions.

These levels then get to control the elections in the higher levels of government. This is why what the public wants is not reflected in any government decision and its all in the hands of the public services to do as they please.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Re: RE: Start a new party?

iamcanadian said:
Most places in the world have political parties in municipal levels as well as all levels. Canada is the only place I know that parties are hidden.

It is done this way to eliminate democratic power from the local levels where people are most impacted by government decisions; so that the bureaucrats can run everything without any public say in their decisions.

These levels then get to control the elections in the higher levels of government. This is why what the public wants is not reflected in any government decision and its all in the hands of the public services to do as they please.


I totally agree with you. But start asking average people downtown if they think parties should run in local elections, and I think you might find a lot of people do not like Canadian political parties and would rather vote at least in the local elections on the person and not the party. As I said I agree with you and I was going to make this a part of my own platform when running to allow a party system in the local level but after talking to people and finding how many people would rather have a level without parties in them I took it off.

I also understand what you are saying about starting new community based parties at a grass roots level might be easyier this way as well. But I'm sure any parties which start off in this area would most likely either end up like one of the current parties or have little success. I know in the states the Socialist party of michigan (I think thats the one) and the Reform party do well at the local level but do not do well nationally.

Also another problem you have missed with the problem with our current system was the fact many small fringe parties do run on the local level and hard too. You wouldn't believe how many Communist party of Canada www.communist-party.ca are on local councils or are school trustee's. Facsists have also gotten people elected this way as well. I do not say Communist's shouldn't be allowed to run but we should know who they are so we are more informed on the canadates politics.

But even with this logic I don't think you will find many people wishing to change our local system of governments.

Oh and there was almost a split with the NDP a few years ago but they chose to stay once Layton fully was elected as leader. I believe the movement inside the NDP was NPI, which actually ended itself last year.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
It seems pretty silly of people to have this view.

All politicians subscribe to a party. Its part of the trade. Allowing them to keep it hidden is kind of stupid.

I think it is the bureacrats that are most against it since this making decisions in groups given the elected more power over the non-elected. Municipal levels (the Regions being the worst) are controled by the Bureaucrats and their ability to manipulate a small number of the more vocal councilors.

They would loose some of the ability to manipulate them, so they are are ones adamantly against parties.

Not having parties acting openly keeps the elected representatives of the people more fragmented and the gives the voter less control over government activities.
 

Calberty

Electoral Member
Dec 7, 2005
277
0
16
Calgary city council is largely non-political (as far as parties). I like it that way as decisions are split along the issue and not bands of aldermen always grouping up together. Our alderman is quite receptive to polling the ward and voting accordingly.

I'm not keen on our mayor but do find the city political process quite transparent. Meetings are all open and there's a chance for citizens to pose questions. The media does a decent job on reporting on the ins and outs.

I contrast this to when i liced in Montreal and Drapeau was mayor...a little general who ran 'his' city.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
From what i have seen of calgary, the politicians are owned by the developers. (or maybe it is just the mayors that "bed down" with their developer and oil buddies?)
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
Usually its the bureaucrats that are bought by private interests. The politicians get advanced by the bureaucrats in the municipal levels. Most of them start as public employees and then move into politics by being pushed by people with senior public jobs.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Anyhow starting a new party isn't the best idea. How about trying to change the party? Every party, be it NDP, Green, Conservative and the Grits have all swinged from the left to the right of the party posistion in the past. Even Jack Layton in this election has moved a little more right on some issues. Harper has moved to the left on a few and Paul Martin is still giving us Liberal lieing promises which be left or right he won't follow up on anyways!

I think to bring this back to one of your orginal points the NDP platform is very Fiscally resouncable.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
I think to bring this back to one of your orginal points the NDP platform is very Fiscally resouncable.

The charge that the NDP isn't fiscally responsible always makes me laugh. In Saskatchewan and Manitoba, they have a better record than the Conservatives lately or the Liberals when they were still a factor. In B.C. the NDP record is about equal to the others.

Saskatchewan and Manitoba are notoriously hard economies to manage because of their small size and the undue influence of outside factors, not to mention that corporations are reluctant to cooperate in even the smallest ways.
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
4,125
0
36
57
Vancouver
members.shaw.ca
Just a wit a few years with the Olympics costing more than originally planned and the new Light Rail to the airport costing even more yet than originally planned and neither of these boondoggles had enough money and don't be surprised come 2011 BC is a have not province again. Rav has increased to 2.2 billion (scuttlebutt has it heading towards 3 billion rather fast, increased construction costs) and is funded by BC public pension plans.

Cambell sold the 3 fast cat ferries for 20 million and now the company that bought them are going to use them to compete against BC Ferries.

Just wait a few years, to all those whining that NDP were so bad out here, The conservatives aka BC Liberals, formerly Social Credit with two boondoggles up and coming will make NDP's alleged screw ups look like a drop in the bucked compared to what we are headed for now in next few years.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Yeah, but their corporate pals will make millions to send back to their head offices in the US and Campbell will retire to a cushy position on a board of directors.