Star-spangled banner - an English view

[CDNBear]

Dont throw that imperialist BS at me, my mother is from Ireland, my father's family are generally from scotland. They were following the orders of generals who generally came from England, or perhaps scotland.

Dont call me names, or suggest I'm an imperialist. You dont know me...you obviously neither know history.

I don't know my history?

Give your head a shake. I know military history. I've studied it and I've been published. I've written many articles on Canadian/Colonial history sunny.

Your English version is biased and flawed.

And if your ancestry is as you say it is, then you would or should rather, have a better grasp of the history of the opression of the Scots and Irish. Further more, you should at least know their history.

I don't need to know you, too know you're wrong.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

I don't know my history?

Give your head a shake. I know military history. I've studied it and I've been published. I've written many articles on Canadian/Colonial history sunny.

Your English version is biased and flawed.

And if your ancestry is as you say it is, then you would or should rather, have a better grasp of the history of the opression of the Scots and Irish. Further more, you should at least know their history.

I don't need to know you, too know you're wrong.

on the simple fact that the irish regiments were commanded by british generals?...you know I am right.

If you are the scholar or military history you say you are, then you will know the warfare between Scotland and England, as well as that of England and Ireland is very hard to definativly put a "right" and a "wrong" side on.

Some sides were more powerful and underhand than the other, although I find it insulting a bilyati like yourself should judge the country for which I was born and it's history. It's history you can contextualise it as much as you like. You know the Irish were raiding England and scotland long before Alfred the great united England. You also know Scotland is derived from the Irish Scotti tribes...so of course, no bias there.

But the FACT I was actually pointing to was, the irish regiment was a british regiment at the time, there is no denying this, they didnt throw their weapons down and say "hell no were irish we wont fight this british colonial war", no they fought alongside the English and scottish.

 

[Gonzo]

Congratulations on being published. I've been published in many papers as a writer and cartoonist, including the Ottawa Citizen.
Robert Ross was the British general who captured Washington, D.C. Ross insisted on only destroying public property, including the destruction of the U.S. Capitol and the White House. I don't know where the soldiers were from, but it's regarded in all history books as a British offensive.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

My point was, that whoever they were, Irish, English, Scottish, Australian, Kiwi, loyalist american, they were loyal to the british crown and in my opinion that makes them British.

Published books please,

 

[I think not]

I don't mean to create any further animosity, but every single book I have read (and I have read 3 Canadian versions and 5 American) it has always been the British who burned down the White House. There was a local militia of about 5000 men, if my memory serves me correctly, none of which had anything to do with the White House.

However, whether it was British troops or colonial militia, they both fought under the flag of the British Empire and they were all, without a doubt, British subjects. I take exception to the native population and that's about it.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

Crikey...cheers ITN, thanks for that.....I think.

Hows Katz coming along by the way, they better not have hiked their prices up, I'm gonna be around there in Jan.

 

[I think not]

Well Daz if you come this way, give me a shout, will have a few drinks.

Look, personally, I had no love for the British Empire, BUT, I have always admired the military aspect of it. We're talking about a tiny island the size of Oregon(?) that conquered 1/4 of the planet. That is no small accomplishment. That is unthinkable today. No power can accomplish this.

As for the War of 1812, I have argued with many Canadians many times over it, and I always hit a wall. The wall I hit is who attacked who and why. I've typed it up so many times over the years I am not about to do it again.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

Frankly.....I know, one could argue the press-ganging of American sailors was the cause of it, or the simple idea of unifying the whole of north america under one banner (either side) but it's long winded and was a very long time ago.

Although, yes, I think we've hit the old Canadian chesnut of who was british and who was Canadian. Do you get a historical drama called "Sharpe" over there?, starring Sean Bean (Travelian in Goldeneye, clear and present danger, Flightplan etc)?..it's basically about a rouge colonal in the british army, he was press-ganged into joining his majesty's army, and he fought alongside irish, indian and american loyalist regiments.

It was a huge hit in book form in the victorian era and depicts much of the wars of the napoleonic and pre-napoleonic period....it's a real eye opener. Not trying to promote it or anything, but it's the truest visual account of the british empire on TV format...it's good points and actually a lot of it's bad points...I would suggest it, even if you only read the book.

best bit for me is the theme music "over the hills and far away" quality stuff

 

[I think not]

Actually Daz, while we are on topic, if you know of any British historians that have any published anything on the War of 1812, I would appreciate it if you let me know. I have searched on amazon.uk for something but haven't found anything. I'm interested in the naval history as much as the land battles.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

Hehehe I don't, but I know a man who will.....an old Scottish alumni of mine, I speak online to him most days, I'll ask him, he will know (it's kinda his forte).

I'll have a word with him probably 2moro. I shant say it's from an American, because even for a republican Scot, well.....he's very old fashioned...but he will know.

(and you probably know there wont be much published because even the 4th of July was pretty much seen as "not worth bothering about" and not really of note during that period......and today infact, it's almost as if we weren't involved or had bigger fish to fry, which we did...Boney).

 

[I think not]

Someone must have written something about it. British North America was at stake during a 3 year war. It wasn't a skirmish.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

No, your right it wasn't, but when you look at it in the context of the time it was set (napoleonic). You should know it was virtually seen as that considering the supposed constant threat of Bonaparte and his Grande Armee posed the whole of Europe on the other side of the world....where as any colonial war set in the new world was looked upon as an internal squabble almost.

So, nope, I see where your coming from, and your viewpoint, but I honestly don't think there will be much...I'll nevertheless endevour to set my friend "the admiral" Mr Dobson onto it!

 

[Hotshot]

I have no idea where you came up with the 9/11 context, but as for the US wooping a superpowers ass. They most certainly did boot Britian right in the hoop.

American's aren't rude or arrogant or ignorant, you are. American foriegn policy is the most ignorant thing on the planet. It smacks of Imperialism and "Manifest Destiny". But American's in general are nice people. It's people that spew off all the time with retohric and bigotry, that if was said about any of the races, would get them swarmed, that are boorish and ignorant.

Numbnuts, I'll type slowly so you can keep up: The post I responded to bragged about the yankees always 'kicking ass'. My post (with a question mark {?}) simply questioned whether they kicked ass on 9-11. Obviously they has their own ass kicked big time. Secondly, if you think that American's aren't rude or arrogant or ignorant, you must be into that funny tobacco. I do not know one 'nice' yankee. You are correct about one thing only: 'American foriegn policy is the most ignorant thing on the planet. It smacks of Imperialism and "Manifest Destiny". '. If the yankees had any guts, they would have impeached their slimy hitler-like prez.

 

[feronia]

Hotshot you obviously haven't met them all now have you. And you seem to have the corner on arrogance at the moment. In my opinion every group of people have those that don't appropriately represent the group. As for GWB I agree with you. The American people have shown lack of courage in allowing that particular joke to go on way to long.

 

[MattUK]

I think that what British (English whatever) people see as American arrogance is not always right. I have met lots of, and still know a large number of Americans (though obviously not all of them, there are millions!), and they are very patriotic, and I think that sometimes this is mistaken by other nations as arrogance.

Personally I think its great that American kids are brought up to love their country and to be proud of its history and to defend it to the end. I wish we did it in Britain.

And to open 'that' can again - I am not, have never been and can not be British - I am English. You can not take me to the country "Great Britain" so how can my nationality hail from a country that does not exist? GB is an amalgamation of three and a bit countries; not a country in its own right. Welsh and Scottish have their own assembly now, devolution will hopefully follow. (Subject to England retaining the North Sea)

 

[hermanntrude]

playing with semantics again. if you decide to be british (ie be inclusive and welcoming rather that petty and standoffish) then you can be british. Personally I don't care where I come from, but in the interests of avoiding the breakup of a powerful and still surprisingly friendly group of countries i try my best to be british. I also don't see why that doesnt stop me being english as well.

Ah who cares anyway? I'm only an ape

 

[MattUK]

I am only playing Devils Advocate. Generally, its the 'English British' that are happy with the GB title, its the 'Welsh British' and the 'Scottish British' that are always moaning - and if they are not happy being part of GB - why make them stay part of it? Cut them off and push them out to sea!

It really does not bother me that much - but there are sometimes small things, like - I would like the choice on job applications, passports etc to put my nationality as English rather than British. English is my true Nationality, something that I remain proud of.

 

[hermanntrude]

putting your nationality as british is hardly a high price to pay for some harmony. if all countries let their regions separate then for a start there'd be 50 countries instead of the US (did i get the number right?), canada'd be (12???) countries... and i reckon the more countries there are the more wars. that's why I am pro Europe and pro Great Britain. Sure there are bad things that come of these unifications, but the overall good, if we stick with it, promises to be impossible to overestimate.

 

[MattUK]

I think thats an impossible comparison. You cant compare seperating 3 countries to seperating all the US states! That would mean that in GB you would have to seperate every COUNTY, so Berkshire, Gloucestershire, Hampshire, Ayr, Mid-Glamorgan etc would all be a country in its own rights!!!

Take America and Canada - thay are linda laid out like England and Scotland - one above the other, that does not mean that they should unite to make one country to ease the chances of war - I mean - the whole of north and south america would be one huge country! The european countries would join, and would not stop until it hit the chinese east coast! That would be one mumma of a country!

 

[Daz_Hockey]

Right, ITN, I spoke to my contact about finding an author about the 1812 war, I'll basically cut and paste what he had to say:



"I'd get a book on the Napoleonic wars (any really from or involving 1812), it should be in there somewhere as a small side-note, nothing more"

"it was an annoyance really, not much more"
"their heavy frigates were effective against our ships, but there weren't very many encounters"