Should we be allowed to sue for government-imposed poverty?

[captain morgan]

That's part of "the solution."

The most important part is to understand that there is no one-size-fits-all, off-the-shelf "solution" to human problems.

Sorry.

No apologies necessary.. It takes a big man to admit when they are wrong.

BTW - Some the greatest historic examples of societal failure are associated with gvts attempting to be all things to all people

 

[Sal]

That society stop trying to be all things to all people and encourage a mindset that people assume personal responsibility for themselves.

okay so your solution is to remove social assistance crime is going to rise in your world exponentially so be prepared to build a lot of prisons and support a lot of people for a long time. On the bright side they won't reproduce.

Question: how is it that children in some SE Asian countries that are born into grinding poverty and lack the 'middle class values' let alone the access to readily available education can still outshine most NorAm kids?

That component alone sheds the cold light of reality on the notion that 'fate and luck' have little to do with the experience of NorAm kids.

Good question. It is because their society is structured in an entirely different way than ours. We are first world, they are second or even third. If they are lucky the west is assisting them by building schools and giving them access to fresh water and food.

Agreed.. So why isn't society cracking down on the dysfunctional parents?

Crack down? Because there aren't enough social workers to be in their homes checking on them every five minutes so that they can remove the kids and place them in a better environment. Because the social programs are the first to see cut backs not corporate welfare receivers.

Historically, we also know that a % of the kids that come from stable, nurturing environments filled with positive influences will fall off the horse too.,

Yes, gene pool results. Two kids, one is a priest and one is a serial killer...bizarre.

I'm not as old as you think... Whatever age you think I am, knock off a decade or 2 and you'll probably be in the ball park.

Okay so you're 40 it was still a very different society back in the boomer times. Unless you are 30 if so, my apologies.

btw - 'haves and have nots' mean next to nothing in this area... Fact is, someone made the money to succeed at some point; a parent, grand parent, etc.. Doesn't matter, the common denominator is that everyone started at the bottom at some point and worked to succeed.

Yes but it does matter because of the gap. Just dismissing it doesn't decrease the relevance.

By the way that you're talking, it's almost impossible for anyone that doesn't already come from money to actually stand a chance of achieving it

No. Opportunity is the answer.

Begs the question - how prevalent is the reliance on long term welfare and does that entire population really need to be on it?

Sure, you or I can come up with specific examples but I am far more curious about the % of people that chose a 'soft option' rather than get out and take charge of their own future.

soft option is a myth perpetuated by ignorance of the psychology of poverty

Equal height? Physical ability? Eye color? - Sure, I'll agree with that but find it tough to understand how those characteristics will impede someone's ability to excel.

Yes but we both know that is not what I meant. If you choose to take the train off of the tracks because you can not address the issue directly, then you are struggling.

If we're talking IQ, I can agree with that too; but in the end, the vast majority of the successful people I know aren't inductees into MENSA.. They worked hard, took risks and got lucky somewhere in the mix.

but yet according to you they were successful because they had great parents

FYI - Academic prowess doesn't guarantee success in life.. It is one component that is very helpful, but it alone doesn't guarantee a thing.

never said it was, nothing stands alone even my Oprah example

What I'm driving at here is that the kid (and their family) need to have that same desire as well... It is far more crucial that someone want it as opposed to ramming it down their throat

And what I am driving at is the parents already don't so that leaves the kids screwed in your world and heading for a life of crime.

 

[captain morgan]

okay so your solution is to remove social assistance crime is going to rise in your world exponentially so be prepared to build a lot of prisons and support a lot of people for a long time. On the bright side they won't reproduce.

They wanna learn the hard way - so be it

Good question. It is because their society is structured in an entirely different way than ours. We are first world, they are second or even third. If they are lucky the west is assisting them by building schools and giving them access to fresh water and food.

.. But somehow, despite the lack of facilities, the non-existant social services and pressure to work in the fields to help the family, these kids put to shame all the misunderstood NorAm students, right?

btw - 1st, 2nd and 3rd world references are Western constructs.. The irony being that the nations I referred too have recorded histories and cultures that date back thousands of years before 'the West' existed.

Crack down? Because there aren't enough social workers to be in their homes checking on them every five minutes so that they can remove the kids and place them in a better environment. Because the social programs are the first to see cut backs not corporate welfare receivers.

Here's an idea! Scale back the entirety of the social services program and see what happens

Yes, gene pool results. Two kids, one is a priest and one is a serial killer...bizarre.

Been this way since the dawn of time... You thinking of altering human evolution in order to solve the education crisis in NorAm?

Okay so you're 40 it was still a very different society back in the boomer times. Unless you are 30 if so, my apologies.

Society is changing each and every day.... Today's miserable years will be the good ole days in 2050.. Us old bastards can set back and yarn to the young 'uns about how I had to wait a milli second to finish my downloads; not like you kids today that get 'em in nano seconds.

Yep - life was sure tougher back then

Yes but it does matter because of the gap. Just dismissing it doesn't decrease the relevance.

How so?.. One kid having an iPhone and car somehow impedes the education of another without?

No. Opportunity is the answer.

Opportunity also has to be accepted... Again, you can't ram ideals and drive down the throat of people that aren't interested.

soft option is a myth perpetuated by ignorance of the psychology of poverty

It's also perpetuated by facts.

Yes but we both know that is not what I meant. If you choose to take the train off of the tracks because you can not address the issue directly, then you are struggling.

That is a fair question when one decides to qualify the root or contributing factor to 'equal'..

None of us are perfectly equal, are we?... You want to hang your hat on that premise, then you had better be prepared to explain it.

but yet according to you they were successful because they had great parents

I never said that.. I think it's what you want to hear

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

No apologies necessary.. It takes a big man to admit when they are wrong.

BTW - Some the greatest historic examples of societal failure are associated with gvts attempting to be all things to all people

Who said anything about governments? Not I, to be sure, m'sieur!

 

[captain morgan]

Who said anything about governments? Not I, to be sure, m'sieur!

Gvt is an extension of society.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Gvt is an extension of society.

Operative term is "extension."

Oddly, society does things the government has nothing to do with.