Scottish nationalism: Petulance, grievance and victimhood

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,948
1,910
113
Sturgeon 'abandons plans to stay in the EU': First Minister 'will scrap policy if she wins referendum' as FOUR polls reveal most Scots want to stay in the UK and don't want another referendum



Nicola Sturgeon is preparing to water down her Brexit demands after four polls showed she faces losing a Scottish independence referendum- and a majority don't want her to hold one before we leave the EU. A poll for the Scottish Daily Mail today suggested 53 per cent of Scots want to stay in the UK once you exclude those yet to decide, while a YouGov poll for The Times put the advantage even higher at 57-43. A ComRes poll for the Sun found just 25 per cent of Scots thought the country should be fully independent, against 58 per cent who thought it should not and 17 per cent who were unsure. Meanwhile, the huge annual Scottish Social Attitudes Survey included evidence of a sharp rise in Euroscepticism.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,948
1,910
113
It would make more sense to push for more decentralization, not total separation.

Well for a start, England needs its own parliament to put it on a par with the other three. And then the UK needs to be made a federal state like Canada and USA and Germany.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
30,245
99
48
Alberta
It would make more sense to push for more decentralization, not total separation.

Well yes, if the English weren't complete twits. What England needs is another big war where Canadians and Americans can head over and spread some more seed. It seemed to have helped the last two times
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
7,300
2
36
You don't think England would want to trade with an independent Scotland (or the EU since Scotland will join)

England wants to trade with the EU on the condition that it can close its borders to free migration. The EU will have none of that though so the best the UK could hope for then is something like CETA. The English are a proud people, too proud, so they'd be prepared to suffer in silence than be proved wrong on Brexit.

With that, if Scotland thinks that by joining the EU it could pressure England to accept the EU's terms for open trade, then it's making a big gamble. We never know. England voted to leave the EU on the understanding that Scotland would join the Brexit so that would be a game changer. But it would be a very big gamble to expect that England would change its mind on Brexit. Maybe, but it's a big gamble.

Well for a start, England needs its own parliament to put it on a par with the other three. And then the UK needs to be made a federal state like Canada and USA and Germany.

Germany might be a better model of a federal state in my mind. But yes, I agree it would make sense for England to have its own Parliament.
 

Remington1

Council Member
Jan 30, 2016
1,469
1
36
I can't see any benefit for either the Scots or the Brits. Scotland would strain their economy with not just England, but Wales and N. Ireland, no? They would have to get their own currency. In my opinion they are stronger together, and this pettiness will hurt the people of Scotland more.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,948
1,910
113
I can't see any benefit for either the Scots or the Brits. Scotland would strain their economy with not just England, but Wales and N. Ireland, no? They would have to get their own currency. In my opinion they are stronger together, and this pettiness will hurt the people of Scotland more.

If Scotland left the UK and rejoined the EU - in other words, it becomes a sovereign state and then hands its sovereignty to Brussels, which is something the so-called Scottish "National" Party wants - Scotland will eventually have to join the euro, the Currency of Doom.

Good look selling that to the Scots, Nic.
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
7,300
2
36
Ya, we do. Scotland will benefit.

Scotland would benefit only if England could negotiate open trade with the EU, and that would require accepting free migration. Do you honestly think England would accept that? Maybe, but it would be a hard sell there right now.

I can't see any benefit for either the Scots or the Brits. Scotland would strain their economy with not just England, but Wales and N. Ireland, no? They would have to get their own currency. In my opinion they are stronger together, and this pettiness will hurt the people of Scotland more.

Technically, an independent Scotland could choose to use the currency it wants. The question is what kind of control it would have over it. If it joins the EU, then the EU central bank is controlled by all member states equally, so the Euro would be an option. If it opts to keep the pound, it would probably have no control over it since England would insist on not sharing that control.

But since Scotland trades more with the UK than with others, separate currencies just mean more overhead costs in money conversion.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,948
1,910
113
Scotland would benefit only if England could negotiate open trade with the EU, and that would require accepting free migration. Do you honestly think England would accept that? Maybe, but it would be a hard sell there right now.



Technically, an independent Scotland could choose to use the currency it wants. The question is what kind of control it would have over it. If it joins the EU, then the EU central bank is controlled by all member states equally, so the Euro would be an option. If it opts to keep the pound, it would probably have no control over it since England would insist on not sharing that control.

But since Scotland trades more with the UK than with others, separate currencies just mean more overhead costs in money conversion.

The Euro wouldn't be an option if Scotland left the UK and then handed over its sovereignty to Brussels by joining the EU. It would have, by law, to join the euro at some point after it joined the EU as all new member states have to adopt it. But the euro is a troubled currency which has left many of its users in the economic doldrums and most Scots likely don't want to adopt it - but they'll have to adopt it if they left the UK and joined the EU.

This is one of the reasons that Scottish secession from the UK is much less likely, not more likely, because of Brexit.

What currency Scotland outside the UK would use is something the SNP have failed to answer despiote being asked repeatedly.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,948
1,910
113
'Scotland IS leaving the EU, one way or another', says Theresa: PM lays down the law to Sturgeon after First Minister scales back ambitions for Brussels links - as FOUR polls show she faces LOSING independence vote most Scots don't want

Nicola Sturgeon has demanded a second referendum on Scottish independence

But already suffered setbacks with polls showing strong majority still back union

First Minister said to be ready to accept Scotland would not stay fully within EU

Two thirds of Scots want the bloc to have reduced powers or for the UK to leave

Theresa May warns that Scotland will leave EU even if it votes for independence

By James Tapsfield, Political Editor For Mailonline and Abe Hawken For Mailonline
15 March 2017

Theresa May heaped pressure on Nicola Sturgeon today by insisting Scotland will leave the EU even if it votes for independence.

The Prime Minister insisted there was no possibility that the First Minister's planned referendum could result in the country staying in the Brussels club.

The blunt message came as Miss Sturgeon suffered a big blow to her ambitions with four polls showing she faces defeat if the ballot is held.


Theresa May warned during PMQs today that Scotland would be leaving the EU whether or not it votes for independence


Four polls today delivered serious blows to Nicola Sturgeon's ambition of Scotland becoming independent

She is expected to respond to the glaring evidence that she is out of step with public opinion by calling for an independent Scotland to have a looser Norway-style link with the EU, rather than full membership.

The array of surveys today showed there is still a significant majority in Scotland in favour of remaining in the UK - and people do not want a ballot staged before Brexit happens.

Research for the Scottish Daily Mail suggested 53 per cent want to stay in the union once you exclude those yet to decide. By a margin of 46 per cent to 41 per cent people oppose Mrs Sturgeon's call for a referendum to be held before the divorce process from the EU is complete.

A YouGov poll for The Times put the majority against independence even higher at 57-43.

ComRes research for the Sun found just 25 per cent of Scots thought the country should be fully independent, against 58 per cent who thought it should not and 17 per cent who were not sure.

Meanwhile, the huge annual Scottish Social Attitudes Survey included evidence of a sharp rise in Euroscepticism.

Two thirds of the public north of the border would want Brussels to have reduced powers or for the UK to leave the EU completely, according to the research.


Nicola Sturgeon (pictured) called for a second independence vote for Scotland

The Mail's poll of 1,019 Scots, carried out by Survation between March 8-13, found that 46 per cent oppose Nicola Sturgeon's plan to hold another independence referendum before Brexit, while only 41 per cent support it and 13 per cent were undecided or didn't know.

It also revealed that 48 per cent of Scots would vote No again if there was a referendum, compared to 43 per cent that would vote Yes and nine per cent who were undecided. When undecided voters are stripped out, it gives No a 53-47 majority.

Crucially, the poll also found majority support for Mrs May rejecting any demand from the SNP to hold a referendum before Brexit, with 36 per cent of respondents saying the Prime Minister should reject any request to hold another vote, a further 18 per cent saying she should accept the request but only allow the vote after Brexit, and 31 per cent saying she should devolve the power.

In the wake of the boost, Mrs May told MPs at PMQs today: 'Scotland will be leaving the EU.

'It will leave the EU either as a member of the UK or were it independent ...

'What we need to do now is unite ... and make sure that we can get the best deal for the whole of the UK.'


A Daily Mail poll today showed there is still a solid majority in Scotland against independence


Ms Sturgeon met her Cabinet in Edinburgh for the first time after she shocked Westminster by declaring her plans for a new vote

The EU has flatly dismissed the prospect of Scotland staying inside the club if it splits - with Spain fiercely opposed because of fears about encouraging its own Catalan separatists.

There are also claims that one of Miss Sturgeon's top advisers believes the Scottish economy could take a decade to recover after independence.

In a sign of the nerves among the nationalists, the SNP's Westminster leader Angus Robertson today stressed that there was still time to avert an independence referendum.

The MP said the party's 'efforts are currently focused' on persuading Theresa May to give them guarantees about access to the European single market.

But he also warned that there were only 'days, maybe weeks' to avert the prospect of a vote.

Mrs May is looking to build support for her approach to Brexit by embarking on a tour of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland before she triggers Article 50 later this month.

Her visit to Scotland could be crucial in determining whether Mrs Sturgeon pushes ahead with a vote.

The Scottish Social Attitudes survey of 1,237 voters has asked the same questions about independence and the EU every year since 1999 and reveals growing Euroscepticism.

It found that 67 per cent of Scots are unhappy with the EU - including 25 per cent of Scots who want to leave entirely and 42 per cent who want its powers to be reduced.

The polling evidence has crystalised fears that Miss Sturgeon's demand to stay fully within the bloc might turn off 400,000 voters who backed both independence and Brexit.

The last referendum in 2014 - which the SNP said would settle the issue for a 'generation' - delivered a 55 per cent majority for staying the UK, equivalent to two million votes.

SNP sources were this morning trying to play down reports that Miss Sturgeon would downscale her ambitions to membership of the European Free Trade Association.

Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein are all in that group, giving them access to the single market.

But they have to comply with rules imposed by Brussels and have no real input into legislation which is drawn up in the Belgian capital.

Scotland was warned that if it chooses to leave the UK, it will also be leaving the EU and would have to rejoin as a new member. All new members since 1999 have been obliged to join the Euro.

Andrew Wilson, who heads up the Growth Commission set up by Miss Sturgeon to examine the economic prospects for an independent Scotland, apparently made a dire prediction about the fallout from leaving the UK.

At a summit of senior party figures in January, he suggested it would take five to 10 years for the economy to return to the position it is now, according to Holyrood magazine.

Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Conservative leader, said: 'The SNP's plans to impose a referendum on independence in Scotland have unravelled within 24 hours.'

And in a move which could deal another blow to Ms Sturgeon, Prime Minister Theresa May told the Commons that after visiting Brussels she could not foresee Scotland being allowed to join the EU if it became independent.

Meanwhile, the Scottish Conservatives slammed the SNP's plans and said that they 'unravelled' in just 24 hours and were left in 'total confusion', reports the newspaper.

It also came on the same day Spain warned Scotland it would be at the 'back of the queue' for EU membership if it voted for independence.


Ms Sturgeon is demanding a second independence referendum take place once the outline of Brexit is clear but before it takes place


Her announcement infuriated Prime Minister Theresa May (pictured) who has hinted that she could not see Brussels allowing an independent Scotland to join the EU


The Mail poll found 46 per cent of Scots oppose holding a second independence referendum

Alfonso Dastis, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Spain, said Spain would do nothing to encourage 'secession' in other countries.

The Spanish government has a long dispute with its own Catalonia region.

Mr Dastis said: 'Spain supports the integrity of the United Kingdom and does not encourage secessions or divisions in any of the member states.

'We prefer things to stay as they are.'

Miss Sturgeon and Mrs May engaged in an extraordinary public slanging match yesterday after the threat to call another referendum.

The First Minister branded the PM 'unelected' and dismissed jibes that she did not have a mandate to trigger a fresh ballot so soon after the issue was meant to have been settled.

But Mrs May accused Miss Sturgeon of 'playing games' with the future of the UK, saying she was willing to do anything to fulfil her ambition of breaking up the union.

The Westminster government has to give approval for a binding referendum to be held, meaning that the PM could theoretically block a poll.

However, ministers are resigned to the prospect of a vote as they believe refusing would just fuel nationalist sentiment.

Instead Mrs May is preparing for a pitch battle with Miss Sturgeon over the timing of the referendum - insisting her preferred schedule of Autumn 2018 is unacceptable and the ballot cannot be held before Brexit is finalised the following year.

 
Last edited:

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,948
1,910
113
Things will be good for Scotland once they go on their own.

There is no political party in Scotland that wants Scotland to go on its own. All its major political parties are anti-independence, unionist parties.

They are either unionist parties that want Scotland in the UK and ruled from London - like Kezia Dugdale's Scottish Labour Party and Ruth Davidson's Scottish Conservative Party - or they are unionist parties that want Scotland in the EU and ruled from Brussels, like Nicola Sturgeon's Scottish "National" Party.
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
7,300
2
36
There is no political party in Scotland that wants Scotland to go on its own. All its major political parties are anti-independence, unionist parties.

They are either unionist parties that want Scotland in the UK and ruled from London - like Kezia Dugdale's Scottish Labour Party and Ruth Davidson's Scottish Conservative Party - or they are unionist parties that want Scotland in the EU and ruled from Brussels, like Nicola Sturgeon's Scottish "National" Party.

That actually shows intelligence. An understanding that unity is strength.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,948
1,910
113
That actually shows intelligence. An understanding that unity is strength.

Leaving a union of four nations only to then join a union of 28 nations which is corrupt, undemocratic and economically sclerotic in which you will have even less say in matters is not a sign of intelligence - it's a sign of madness, particularly coming from people who call themselves Scottish nationalists.