Jay said:I think not said:
Do you like my new avatar?
For pete's sake mate, get your head out of the 15th century :lol: , what's next, jousting?
Roman History - ancient history
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For pete's sake mate, get your head out of the 15th century :lol: , what's next, jousting?
Re: RE: Roman History - ancient history
Well I did see a horse once on a Seinfeld episode.
Jay said:If you're up for a match...sure. Me thinks you haven't even seen a horse let alone ride one, though....
Well I did see a horse once on a Seinfeld episode.
Ok honestly we are just a little off topic here. Next people are going to be talking about George w Bush jr or something.
The only thing Canada needs is: a workable recall system that would make the politicians accountable and keep a majority government from becoming a dictatorship for four or five years.
___________________________#juan__________________
Instutionalizing RECALL as a normal everyday event
will bring chaos, and a lack of discipline and will cause
your leaders to be less brave and honorable as they
are always in fear of a whimsical ephemeral majority.
It brings too close the tyranny of the mob, the tyranny
of the majority bringing to you exactly what you
suggested you are against.
It is human nature to do endless tinkering and tweaking
of the rules and it is nothing but the little Dutch boy
putting his finger in the hole of the dyke.
Our desire for perfection reaches robotic proportions.
This desire to fix, is ultimately dehumanizing and kills
all manner of honor and bravery.
RECALL is a notion best left for only extraordinary
circumstances.
As is the case for IMPEACHMENT.
This is the microwave mentality. We need our food
NOW. We must eat now. No time for ambience.
No time for the beauty of preparation. No time.
No time left for you.
GUESS WHO.
Great song.
___________________________#juan__________________
Instutionalizing RECALL as a normal everyday event
will bring chaos, and a lack of discipline and will cause
your leaders to be less brave and honorable as they
are always in fear of a whimsical ephemeral majority.
It brings too close the tyranny of the mob, the tyranny
of the majority bringing to you exactly what you
suggested you are against.
It is human nature to do endless tinkering and tweaking
of the rules and it is nothing but the little Dutch boy
putting his finger in the hole of the dyke.
Our desire for perfection reaches robotic proportions.
This desire to fix, is ultimately dehumanizing and kills
all manner of honor and bravery.
RECALL is a notion best left for only extraordinary
circumstances.
As is the case for IMPEACHMENT.
This is the microwave mentality. We need our food
NOW. We must eat now. No time for ambience.
No time for the beauty of preparation. No time.
No time left for you.
GUESS WHO.
Great song.
I would agree that the US democracy as close to perfect as a democracy can get.
It has its problems like any form of government but has less problems and is more dynamic, self-healing and improving over time.
Canada's democracy us virtually non-existent. We are as a majority of the people ruled by a class of immigrants that arrive here earlier and took control of government and the political systems at all levels and mantains it for their own exclusive advantages, at the expense of the majority of immigrants that came after them.
It has its problems like any form of government but has less problems and is more dynamic, self-healing and improving over time.
Canada's democracy us virtually non-existent. We are as a majority of the people ruled by a class of immigrants that arrive here earlier and took control of government and the political systems at all levels and mantains it for their own exclusive advantages, at the expense of the majority of immigrants that came after them.
I would agree that some sort of "recall" system, in terms of the Canadian system of governance, would be unprecedented and could seize the House of Commons with by-elections.
However, I would assert that there should be some mechanism by which a Government of Canada could have "censure" invoked over it (perhaps by a more accountable Senate), something similar to a vote of non-confidence, but done from the other Chamber.
However, I would assert that there should be some mechanism by which a Government of Canada could have "censure" invoked over it (perhaps by a more accountable Senate), something similar to a vote of non-confidence, but done from the other Chamber.
Re: RE: Roman History - ancient history
Our FPTP system is not set up for recall elections. as few MP's get over 50% of the vote, most of the people who an MP represents does not support his views, so how could a recall work in the first place? Plus those who even do get around 50%, it is normal for a MP to lose some support while in office and he will easyly go under 50% sooner or later.
I would not support recall in FPTP or MMP electoral system. The only time I would consider a re-call is if we had an elected head of government directly voted in by the people with a run off elections. Plus I think the threshold for recall would have to be pretty high.
FiveParadox said:
Our FPTP system is not set up for recall elections. as few MP's get over 50% of the vote, most of the people who an MP represents does not support his views, so how could a recall work in the first place? Plus those who even do get around 50%, it is normal for a MP to lose some support while in office and he will easyly go under 50% sooner or later.
I would not support recall in FPTP or MMP electoral system. The only time I would consider a re-call is if we had an elected head of government directly voted in by the people with a run off elections. Plus I think the threshold for recall would have to be pretty high.
Plus I think the threshold for recall would have to be pretty high.
---------------------------Finder----------------------
Absolutely !
Recall is for people who only eat microwaved food.
---------------------------Finder----------------------
Absolutely !
Recall is for people who only eat microwaved food.
agreed, jim
recall is very disruptive to the business of the state and as such must have a high requirement to initiate, and a very high support from the electorate to carry.
The concern in canada is that given a majority government, the people really vote one day and enjoy living in a dictatorship for up to 5 years. There is a need for accountability, but it must not allow for knee-jerk reactions to small issues.
recall is very disruptive to the business of the state and as such must have a high requirement to initiate, and a very high support from the electorate to carry.
The concern in canada is that given a majority government, the people really vote one day and enjoy living in a dictatorship for up to 5 years. There is a need for accountability, but it must not allow for knee-jerk reactions to small issues.
People against majority government are against the people's interests. There cannot be any accountability if there is not one with a majority that can be held accountable for what government does.
All our blaming of one party when all of the parties share blame is silly.
Not one thing that any minority government ever did can be blamed on the one power with the tittle, because the other parties where always in a position to join together and be the majority vote.
Canadian politics is a sham.
All our blaming of one party when all of the parties share blame is silly.
Not one thing that any minority government ever did can be blamed on the one power with the tittle, because the other parties where always in a position to join together and be the majority vote.
Canadian politics is a sham.
Re: RE: Roman History - ancient history
Because that would be too republican...
I wish we had the same system as the Americans. Well the system of checks and balances. See Term Limits, even recall, are workable with your system. Term limits have never been in the Westminster system and was not the thought behind the westminster system..
Really when you look at it the Republican system comes directly from the humanist-liberal frame of mind between the 14th-19th centries to emulate the classical Roman republic and in a larger scale to base society and government on the more seculer temporal classics then celestrial governance of Pope or prince.
I wish we could just remove this relic and go with a system which makes sence.
jimmoyer said:
Because that would be too republican...
I wish we had the same system as the Americans. Well the system of checks and balances. See Term Limits, even recall, are workable with your system. Term limits have never been in the Westminster system and was not the thought behind the westminster system..
Really when you look at it the Republican system comes directly from the humanist-liberal frame of mind between the 14th-19th centries to emulate the classical Roman republic and in a larger scale to base society and government on the more seculer temporal classics then celestrial governance of Pope or prince.
I wish we could just remove this relic and go with a system which makes sence.
While our system is certainly flawed, I would contend that there are some major benefits to the Westminster system. I wouldn't say that having a Parliament "sucks," lol.
For example, the concept of "supply," and the concept of defeating a Government over issues of confidence. These are extremely important in my evaluation of a system of governance (personally speaking); I support, more or less, the principles of responsible government (not to say that other systems aren't responsible — it's a textbook definition).
For example, the concept of "supply," and the concept of defeating a Government over issues of confidence. These are extremely important in my evaluation of a system of governance (personally speaking); I support, more or less, the principles of responsible government (not to say that other systems aren't responsible — it's a textbook definition).
Democratic Renewal Secretariat:
Ontario's "Westminster" style democracy was imported from Britain over 130 years ago when Ontario was a very different place. The population was far less diverse and voting rights were restricted to a select few.
Since then, Ontario has developed into a diverse province in which all citizens get to have their say. Yet in the last election, only about half of all Ontarians voted. Many have lost faith in a system that, for too long, has been cynically manipulated to promote the interests of the government in power.
It's time to restore people's faith, bring our 19th century democratic traditions into the 21st century and bring citizens -- especially young people -- back to the centre of politics. The new secretariat is a first of its kind in Ontario. It will ensure meaningful reform by consulting with the people of Ontario, engaging youth and working to improve voter turnout.
http://www.democraticrenewal.gov.on.ca
Unfortunately this ministry appears to only play lip service to their stated mandate.
Ontario's "Westminster" style democracy was imported from Britain over 130 years ago when Ontario was a very different place. The population was far less diverse and voting rights were restricted to a select few.
Since then, Ontario has developed into a diverse province in which all citizens get to have their say. Yet in the last election, only about half of all Ontarians voted. Many have lost faith in a system that, for too long, has been cynically manipulated to promote the interests of the government in power.
It's time to restore people's faith, bring our 19th century democratic traditions into the 21st century and bring citizens -- especially young people -- back to the centre of politics. The new secretariat is a first of its kind in Ontario. It will ensure meaningful reform by consulting with the people of Ontario, engaging youth and working to improve voter turnout.
http://www.democraticrenewal.gov.on.ca
Unfortunately this ministry appears to only play lip service to their stated mandate.
Re: RE: Roman History - ancient history
didn't we already agree that both the federal and provincial camp on this have been dragging there feet.
Anyhow even if we do change to PR, MMP or even STV, you can keep the basics of the westminster form of government. New Zealand uses MMP and is considered to be Westminster...
Personally I could care less what you call it. I just want a system with a mix of PR and FPTP, a inclusive system which represents everyone, but also represents ridings.
How much do you want to beat that we don't have a new system come the next provincial election? lol
hmmmmmm this bugs me that this has become a political discussion and not a historic one.
iamcanadian said:
didn't we already agree that both the federal and provincial camp on this have been dragging there feet.
Anyhow even if we do change to PR, MMP or even STV, you can keep the basics of the westminster form of government. New Zealand uses MMP and is considered to be Westminster...
Personally I could care less what you call it. I just want a system with a mix of PR and FPTP, a inclusive system which represents everyone, but also represents ridings.
How much do you want to beat that we don't have a new system come the next provincial election? lol
hmmmmmm this bugs me that this has become a political discussion and not a historic one.
Re: RE: Roman History - ancient history
Sorry missed your post..
In our system we rarely have minority governments and they rarely get defeated on these motions.
Paradox you will see the failure in our system when the CPC get's a magority. If they do not govern like Liberals you will also see how they've become our dictators. You won't be able to do anything as they remove our puplic health care system, the gays rights , and devalue our educational systems. You will stand there and wonder what you can do. Hope that there bill won't pass but... hey they have a magority they have 4 years to do all the damage they want, no checks, no balances.. As they appoint Conservative senators (thats if they forget that they support senate reform) and they appoint a nice conservative GG, you will see Canada totally transform. On the one hope you have for the government to defeated lies only with a minority government which really is rare, all your rights can be drained away.
Now I'm pretty sure the Conservative government will governor very liberally consider most of Canada has Liberal or social democratic values. But they don't have to. Once harper is PM with a magority he is King of Canada... Paradox, the system you believe in so much will make a King out of the person you dislike, who will attack your values and there is NOTHING you can do about it. I hope Harper actually governers like an ULTRA concervative. maybe then people like you will actually take note of hour bad our system can be once they lose there rights. *shrugs*
Again I doubt Harper will governor that badly and I think he might still get a minority.
FiveParadox said:
Sorry missed your post..
In our system we rarely have minority governments and they rarely get defeated on these motions.
Paradox you will see the failure in our system when the CPC get's a magority. If they do not govern like Liberals you will also see how they've become our dictators. You won't be able to do anything as they remove our puplic health care system, the gays rights , and devalue our educational systems. You will stand there and wonder what you can do. Hope that there bill won't pass but... hey they have a magority they have 4 years to do all the damage they want, no checks, no balances.. As they appoint Conservative senators (thats if they forget that they support senate reform) and they appoint a nice conservative GG, you will see Canada totally transform. On the one hope you have for the government to defeated lies only with a minority government which really is rare, all your rights can be drained away.
Now I'm pretty sure the Conservative government will governor very liberally consider most of Canada has Liberal or social democratic values. But they don't have to. Once harper is PM with a magority he is King of Canada... Paradox, the system you believe in so much will make a King out of the person you dislike, who will attack your values and there is NOTHING you can do about it. I hope Harper actually governers like an ULTRA concervative. maybe then people like you will actually take note of hour bad our system can be once they lose there rights. *shrugs*
Again I doubt Harper will governor that badly and I think he might still get a minority.