queue-jumping probe at Vancouver hospital {CTP OTS eg

Karlin

Council Member
Jun 27, 2004
1,275
2
38
The recent debacle over MRIs done in public hospitals has ended with the private operators being kicked out.

The health minister launched a probe into the issue too.

This is a perfect example of "Create the Problem, Offer the Solution"
- read on.

What is NUTS is that it took a patient to raise concerns over what she felt SHE was doing - queue-jumping. Her conscience took hold and she said Hey Wait a minute - aren't I jumping in front of others just because I waved some cash around? Any nurse could have raised this flag, and the health minister must have known about it before this.

And its true - she was in the Public St. Paul’s hospital in Vancouver and she was paying a private clinic to do the same job on the same machine that she would have had to wait for 3 more painfull months to get done on the public [free] waiting list.

"People without money have to wait, for $3000 you can get it now."
The nurse on duty was the one that told her that.
So there is no doubt - we are doing it.

Ok, we knew that we were doing it - letting the wealthy get care while the poor suffer.

It is the accepted arrangement of renting out the MRI machine and the space after hours to private medical services providers, which will raise some money for the hospital while the MRI would otherwise be sitting unused.

With the long waiting lists, and the recent government initiative to reduce those waits, the obvious and simple solution would be for St.Pauls to hire one or two more shifts of staff to run that machine all night to serve that public waiting list.

Maybe there are problems with staffing it in the public system? or that paying out overtime makes it too expensive? None of those practical reasons or any other was offered by the minister of health or the private operator. They only had some cliches and rhetoric to say: "the government will end up spending more tax dollars if it prevents St. Paul’s from allowing private patients to pay to use public equipment. " [but didn't say how or why]

Create the Problem and then Offer the Solution is the theme here. Have you heard of it? Its everywhere you look, if you look. The government underfunds the public system to CREATE long waiting lists, and the offers the SOLUTION of "Pay the private operators for it".



http://tinyurl.com/gcl6g
The St. Paul’s patients who were originally told they must wait months for magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans said they received the treatment within days after paying a private clinic.

The patients said they received the treatment at St. Paul’s on the same machines they were earlier told were booked for months.

Opposition health critic Adrian Dix said the B.C. government is underfunding MRI use at B.C. hospitals. He said the government’s rationing of MRI use has created needless waits for patients who are suffering.

The government actively encourages private health care in British Columbia and underfunds the public system.
 

justfred

Electoral Member
Dec 26, 2004
321
71
28
Drumheller
Queue jumping is certainly a hot topic and a thing that we do not want to see in Canada. However, are you aware that there is queue jumping already in Canada.
Who is on first? I guess that you should realize that RCMP and Military have first priority over us common citizens. Secondly, is either sports celebrities or criminals. Yes criminals are ahead of all private citizens and tax paying people in Canada. Not sure why.
I think we can rationalize that RCMP and Military personnel should be ahead of us, but criminals!!!
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
Two tier healthcare is not new. Hi-tech fertility treatments in Canada are only provided to those who can afford it. It's been like that since the early 80's.
 

fuzzylogix

Council Member
Apr 7, 2006
1,204
7
38
Queue jumping is also done if it is a workman's compensation case. Yup. If you screw up your knee on the job, and workman's comp is gonna have to pay for your time off, then you jump to the top of the MRI queue, ahead of the poor sucker who screwed his knee up while skiing on holiday.

Let us not forget all our politicians who jump the queue.

There are also queue jumpers from US who find it cheaper to pay for our services than to get them in the US.
 

athabaska

Electoral Member
Dec 26, 2005
313
0
16
It's not queue jumping because the private facility is outside of the queue. I used to wait 30 minutes in Nova Scotia to get my car registration renewed..I moved to Alberta and could walk into one of hundreds of businesses providing the service and walk out in 5 minutes....so can everyone else despite their income.

Why does an MRI need to be in a hospital taking up expensive space and high paid staff and service?? A friend took a vacation to Las Vegas, had a needed MRI done for $550 on his liver, brought the results back to his specialist and had peace of mind.

I have no problem with a public funded health system but would prefer private delivery.
 

Karlin

Council Member
Jun 27, 2004
1,275
2
38
Re: RE: queue-jumping probe at Vancouver hospital {CTP OTS e

Kreskin said:
Two tier healthcare is not new. Hi-tech fertility treatments in Canada are only provided to those who can afford it. It's been like that since the early 80's.

Yes, thats true. Yet, we must keep in mind that it is NO JUSTIFICATION for two-tier health care, jsut because it has been going on for awhile.

And thanks for the other replys too. These are all good examples, some acceptable to most of us, for getting certain people to the head of the line.

This particular debacle is about CASH.
Wave some cash around and you get treated ahead of others waiting int he same room. That is NOT acceptable.
 

athabaska

Electoral Member
Dec 26, 2005
313
0
16
I'd rather there be 10 rooms instead of folks lined up in 1 room. When I get a toothache I don't wait 6 months to see a tooth specialist but walk into my dentist's office and get the issue dealt with. My dentist's wants my business and I get treated accordingly.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
It's a matter of staff shortages. If there were not enough dentists to see all their patients, it wouldn't matter if they wanted your business or not.

"Dix said the government actively encourages private health care in British Columbia and underfunds the public system."

This is the real problem IMO. We have the fox guarding the henhouse in BC healthcare.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
Re: RE: queue-jumping probe at Vancouver hospital {CTP OTS e

Kreskin said:
Two tier healthcare is not new. Hi-tech fertility treatments in Canada are only provided to those who can afford it. It's been like that since the early 80's.

That's because fertility treatments are not medically necessary. It's only medically necessary tests and procedures that are covered by the Canada health act. Fertility treatment is classified as medically unecessary and therefore can be paid for out of pocket, similar to plastic surgery.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,467
139
63
Location, Location
"Why does an MRI need to be in a hospital taking up expensive space and high paid staff and service?? A friend took a vacation to Las Vegas, had a needed MRI done for $550 on his liver, brought the results back to his specialist and had peace of mind. "

It doesn't need to be in a hospital, but someone has to pay for it...every dorky little town inthe US has an MRI clinic, because they make money. But here in Canada, the only people allowed to have MRI machines seem to be the gov't operations with their grossly inefficient collection of managers.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
Re: RE: queue-jumping probe at Vancouver hospital {CTP OTS e

tracy said:
Kreskin said:
Two tier healthcare is not new. Hi-tech fertility treatments in Canada are only provided to those who can afford it. It's been like that since the early 80's.

That's because fertility treatments are not medically necessary. It's only medically necessary tests and procedures that are covered by the Canada health act. Fertility treatment is classified as medically unecessary and therefore can be paid for out of pocket, similar to plastic surgery.

Depends who determines what is or isn't medically necessary. The primary objective of Canadian health care policy is "to protect, promote and restore the physical and mental well-being of residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers". Open for interpretation, isn't it? It's covered for blocked tubes in Ontario. Apparently the Province feels that if it can be proven medically that it's impossible to get pregnant then it is medically necessary. However the science has dramatically changed since that legislation and now men can not only be proven to be completely naturally infertile but scientifically and medically capable of fathering children, yet no coverage. There's a "mens rights" debate for ya :) .

Is a sex change operation medically necessary? Is an abortion medically necessary? Lots of treatment coverage available for those medically necessary procedures.
 

athabaska

Electoral Member
Dec 26, 2005
313
0
16
Re: RE: queue-jumping probe at Vancouver hospital {CTP OTS e

Kreskin said:
tracy said:
Kreskin said:
Two tier healthcare is not new. Hi-tech fertility treatments in Canada are only provided to those who can afford it. It's been like that since the early 80's.

That's because fertility treatments are not medically necessary. It's only medically necessary tests and procedures that are covered by the Canada health act. Fertility treatment is classified as medically unecessary and therefore can be paid for out of pocket, similar to plastic surgery.

Depends who determines what is or isn't medically necessary. The primary objective of Canadian health care policy is "to protect, promote and restore the physical and mental well-being of residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers". Open for interpretation, isn't it? It's covered for blocked tubes in Ontario. Apparently the Province feels that if it can be proven medically that it's impossible to get pregnant then it is medically necessary. However the science has dramatically changed since that legislation and now men can not only be proven to be completely naturally infertile but scientifically and medically capable of fathering children, yet no coverage. There's a "mens rights" debate for ya :) .

Is a sex change operation medically necessary? Is an abortion medically necessary? Lots of treatment coverage available for those medically necessary procedures.

Thus the reason to get government out of all but the essentials. The classic special interest group argument at the public teat... the government spends (wastes) money on 'a' so why can't it spend money on 'b'. There's not enough cash to pay for a timely hip replacement for grandma to have a pain free quality of life because money is siphoned off into sex changes, abortions..and now it should go to fertility treatments.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
Re: RE: queue-jumping probe at Vancouver hospital {CTP OTS e

athabaska said:
Kreskin said:
tracy said:
Kreskin said:
Two tier healthcare is not new. Hi-tech fertility treatments in Canada are only provided to those who can afford it. It's been like that since the early 80's.

That's because fertility treatments are not medically necessary. It's only medically necessary tests and procedures that are covered by the Canada health act. Fertility treatment is classified as medically unecessary and therefore can be paid for out of pocket, similar to plastic surgery.

Depends who determines what is or isn't medically necessary. The primary objective of Canadian health care policy is "to protect, promote and restore the physical and mental well-being of residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers". Open for interpretation, isn't it? It's covered for blocked tubes in Ontario. Apparently the Province feels that if it can be proven medically that it's impossible to get pregnant then it is medically necessary. However the science has dramatically changed since that legislation and now men can not only be proven to be completely naturally infertile but scientifically and medically capable of fathering children, yet no coverage. There's a "mens rights" debate for ya :) .

Is a sex change operation medically necessary? Is an abortion medically necessary? Lots of treatment coverage available for those medically necessary procedures.

Thus the reason to get government out of all but the essentials. The classic special interest group argument at the public teat... the government spends (wastes) money on 'a' so why can't it spend money on 'b'. There's not enough cash to pay for a timely hip replacement for grandma to have a pain free quality of life because money is siphoned off into sex changes, abortions..and now it should go to fertility treatments.

Just pointing out that medically necessary is often in the eye of the beholder, especially when the problem is a physical one.

BTW, why am I paying for your grandma's hip? She doesn't need to walk.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
Re: RE: queue-jumping probe at Vancouver hospital {CTP OTS e

Kreskin said:
tracy said:
Kreskin said:
Two tier healthcare is not new. Hi-tech fertility treatments in Canada are only provided to those who can afford it. It's been like that since the early 80's.

That's because fertility treatments are not medically necessary. It's only medically necessary tests and procedures that are covered by the Canada health act. Fertility treatment is classified as medically unecessary and therefore can be paid for out of pocket, similar to plastic surgery.

Depends who determines what is or isn't medically necessary. The primary objective of Canadian health care policy is "to protect, promote and restore the physical and mental well-being of residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers". Open for interpretation, isn't it? It's covered for blocked tubes in Ontario. Apparently the Province feels that if it can be proven medically that it's impossible to get pregnant then it is medically necessary. However the science has dramatically changed since that legislation and now men can not only be proven to be completely naturally infertile but scientifically and medically capable of fathering children, yet no coverage. There's a "mens rights" debate for ya :) .

Is a sex change operation medically necessary? Is an abortion medically necessary? Lots of treatment coverage available for those medically necessary procedures.

I completely get what you're saying. Fortunately I didn't have to be the one to decide what's medically necessary and what isn't.
 

fuzzylogix

Council Member
Apr 7, 2006
1,204
7
38
Why do so many people think the problem is that public health care is wasteful and inefficient????

In private health care, the aim is to make a profit. Where do people think that profit comes from??? Profit does not just materialize as a benefit of a private company. A private company pays its workers less, and provides less service for your bucks. It has to, in order to make a profit. It also pays its management staff far more than management staff make in the public system.

You are paying for health care through your taxes. The problem is that health care is very expensive, especially now with all the things that can be provided. People who advocate for a private system however usually have a lot of money, or have never been really sick. In a private system, you certainly pay far less than a public system----until you are sick. Then, you pay so much more, that in the US, the commonest cause of bankruptcy is paying medical expenses.