Quebec’s anti-protest legislation tramples basic rights: legal experts

mentalfloss

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Focus of Quebec protests swells beyond tuition hikes

The almost nightly protests in Montreal have transcended the student movement's opposition to tuition fee hikes and are now more about the future of the province and basic rights, a panel of political experts says.

While the movement isn't exactly surging in public opinion polls, it's starting to attract international attention through its use of social media - particularly to spread its rejection of Bill 78, a new Quebec law designed to crack down on street protests.

But the recent tactic of banging pots and pans and generally making noise has increased the volume of that opposition and drawn more people from the sidelines to the frontlines with kitchen utensils in tow.

"I think now it's become contagious and people are just letting their steam out, people are mad about corruption, about lack of ethics . . . shale gas, anything you want," political analyst and former Liberal MP Jean Lapierre told CTV's Question Period Sunday.

In the beginning the student marches were primarily a Montreal phenomenon, but they have since spread to communities like Val-d'or and Gaspe, Lapierre said in an interview from Montreal.

"The people want to be heard."

It's also possible recent social unrest is a reverberation of the Quiet Revolution of the 1960s when students, artists and intellectuals realized parts of Quebec society were poor, uneducated and backward.

And, that's led to resurgence in the social belief that groups such as students are intellectual workers and should be paid through means such as free tuition, William Johnson, columnist and former president of English lobby group Alliance Quebec, said as part of the panel discussion on Question Period.

That's not necessarily a view shared by McGill University associate professor Antonia Maioni, who argues the protests are really a larger debate about Quebec's political and economic future.

"We've been having a debate in Quebec for at least a decade about what's next," she said.

That debate has centered on global changes and how the province manages that upheaval in the future, she said.

"A community and a society that's divided on the question and that wants to have a way of expressing its point of view," Maioni said about the movement's motivation.

Premier Jean Charest came to power with a plan to change the state, she said, and take the province on another track.

"I think what we're seeing in some of the protests is a bit of pushback, which I think now is way beyond simply the student movement," she said.

Lapierre said what he's noticed is the lack of reference to Quebec sovereignty in the demonstrations, and more talk about the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms with regard to Bill 78.

"In a way, it's quite a different scene than what we've heard for the last 30 years and I must say, I have not heard one person on the street saying, ‘We want (PQ Leader Pauline) Marois'," he said.

"It's really on wider issues and the debate is right and left, but nothing about sovereignty."

Johnson doesn't agree with that assertion and said the groups backing and bankrolling the students are the same ones who lobby for independence -- artists, labour unions, intellectuals and the separatists themselves.

"For all of them the common denominator is they have a sacred cause, according to which the Quebec state and the Quebec government is illegitimate," he said.

That comes with the ingrained belief that students should be paid, society must be renewed, the people should stand with the Third World and "puts welfare ahead of profit," Johnson said.

But Maioni said it's really "more of an expression of frustration with the heavy handedness of Bill 78" as a response to the conflict over tuition fees.

"I think that really transcends any kind of politics of sovereignty, or politics of the sort that (William) was suggesting," she said.

Maioni said most demonstrators are genuinely concerned citizens who are making noise and stating this (Bill 78 ) isn't the way they want to solve problems in Quebec.

Lapierre agreed and said the public sentiment is to negotiate with the students.

"They don't want to have a bazooka to kill a duck."
 

mentalfloss

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Wuh-oh, spaghettios..

It’s the older generation that’s entitled, not students

“Entitlement.” We hear that word associated again and again with student protesters in Quebec. Usually, it’s preceded by the words, “sense of.”

“They think someone owes them a living,” disgruntled critics harrumph. “Wait until they get into the real world.”

Setting aside the fact that this intergenerational hectoring dates back to Socrates, let us ask: Who exactly is making the charge? Quebec has had low tuition rates for a half century. That means almost every living adult in the province, having already been afforded a plum goodie, is now wagging his finger at the first generation that will be asked to pay the tab. So who really is entitled here?

Canadians now aged 55 years and older will collect Old Age Security when they hit 65. The rest of us will have to work two more years. Those who came of age in the 1960s enjoyed Employment Insurance and Medicare when they were still unfunded liabilities. They cash a Canada Pension cheque that depends upon today’s working men and women. The plan probably won’t exist by the time the rest of us reach whatever age of retirement the government decrees by the time we are old.

In the 1970s, parents pulled on the (now discontinued) Family Allowance program. The employed could count on a level of job security that allowed them to take on debt to own houses, cottages and cars. They paid them off and retired to indexed pensions.

It’s almost like Canadians had a “sense of entitlement,” or something.

In the ’90s, this same well-entitled generation began the drumbeat for lower taxes, never once offering up a government program they were willing to sacrifice. When the economy tanked, it fell to money-starved governments to bail everyone out. Today’s youth had nothing to do with that profligacy, but are being called upon to “grow up” and shoulder the adult responsibility of paying the debt off.

We hear a great deal these days about how we have to be reasonable about the times we live in. Corporate officers pulling in massive salaries and bonuses even as their companies lose money say average working men and women have to understand that the age of job security, pensions and even a middle-class wage are behind us. Have any of them offered to take the lead by surrendering even a fraction of their benefits? Are Federal Labour Minister Lisa Rait and Quebec Premier Jean Charest prepared to trim their gold-plated pensions to set an example to the students and workers they condescendingly lecture about the “new reality”?

Today’s youth face a grim future not of their own making. Is it any wonder that they’re angry about it? What they are asking for is what previous generations so eagerly gobbled up for themselves. If those generations now believe their entitlements were too generous, then, perhaps, in the spirit of sharing the burden, they might want to give some of them back.

Didn’t think so.

Quebec student protests: It's the older generation that's entitled, not students | National Post
 

CDNBear

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What are you talking about?
You don't remember our discussion on the CPP, where I took the position that it could bear the weight of an influx of new immigrants, who had contributed little to it?

You were quite adamant about the fact that Martin's keen investing had secured a solid future of the CPP.

Now you seem to be endorsing a claim that it may not.
 

mentalfloss

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You don't remember our discussion on the CPP, where I took the position that it could bear the weight of an influx of new immigrants, who had contributed little to it?

You were quite adamant about the fact that Martin's keen investing had secured a solid future of the CPP.

Now you seem to be endorsing a claim that it may not.

I'm not endorsing anything. I just posted an article I thought was interesting.
 

CDNBear

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I'm not endorsing anything. I just posted an article I thought was interesting.
Oh, OK.

So the "Wuh-oh, spaghettios.." was an indication that you thought it was interesting because of the glaringly wrong insinuations it makes?

I'm not trying to be a goon or anything. I'm just trying to understand what you were getting at with the "Wuh-oh, spaghettios.." and the Op/Ed piece, that contains claims you yourself have proven wrong.

It sends a conflicting message.
 

mentalfloss

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Oh, OK.

So the "Wuh-oh, spaghettios.." was an indication that you thought it was interesting because of the glaringly wrong insinuations it makes?

I'm not trying to be a goon or anything. I'm just trying to understand what you were getting at with the "Wuh-oh, spaghettios.." and the Op/Ed piece, that contains claims you yourself have proven wrong.

It sends a conflicting message.

You could've just asked me what I meant by the comment if you were curious.

I just thought it was funny how the entitlement claim always goes to the youth but in this case (at least with education) it is the other way around. Doesn't really go beyond that, so stay calm and carry on.
 

CDNBear

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You could've just asked me what I meant by the comment if you were curious.
I did...

No kidding eh?

Can you see the problem with that statement?

I just thought it was funny how the entitlement claim always goes to the youth but in this case (at least with education) it is the other way around.
It is?

One of the flaws with using Op/Ed pieces, is that it's based on someones subjective opinion.

Who paid the previous tabs?

Even Germany has raised the age of retirement. And we all know how Germany is the beacon of green.

Those who came of age in the 70's, 80's, 90's and the millennium, still enjoy the benefit of health care, and EI. Because many a blue collar worker are carrying a disproportionate share of the debt load.

There's no doubt in my mind that there in wealth inequity. Hell, I fully endorse protesting about it.

But a minor increase in tuition fees, in a province that has historically enjoyed a lower fee, turning into riots, is beyond contemptible.

Does it smack of entitlement? Not really. It comes off as just as selfish as the previous generation is being portrayed.

Doesn't really go beyond that, so stay calm and carry on.
For someone that cries about trolling, maybe you should avoid inviting it.
 

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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There's no doubt in my mind that there in wealth inequity. Hell, I fully endorse protesting about it.

But a minor increase in tuition fees, in a province that has historically enjoyed a lower fee, turning into riots, is beyond contemptible.

Does it smack of entitlement? Not really. It comes off as just as selfish as the previous generation is being portrayed.

If the price of food or gas went up by 75% within 5 years, would you call that a minor increase?

Remember the original plan was to raise tuition fees by 325$ per year for 5 years. That means tuition fees are 1625$ more expensive 5 years from now.

Yeah there's been some ridiculously excessive acts. But the fact remains that the student movement is overwhelmingly non violent.
 

CDNBear

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If the price of food or gas went up by 75% within 5 years, would you call that a minor increase?
In many cases, it already has.

Remember the original plan was to raise tuition fees by 325$ per year for 5 years. That means tuition fees are 1625$ more expensive 5 years from now.
Your not wooing me over here. My yearly fuel costs have doubled, in 5 years. My household budget, almost the same. My business consumables, ditto. While my ability to increase my income was stifled years ago, with short sighted legislation, allowing anyone that can strike an arc, to call themselves a welder. Thus devaluing the trade in Ontario.

You'll have to excuse me, if I'm not broken hearted.

Yeah there's been some broken windows. But the fact remains that the student movement is overwhelmingly non violent.
I've made no claims or comments about their right to peaceful protest.
 
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s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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In many cases, it already has.

Did you consider it a minor increase?

Your not wooing me over here. My yearly fuel costs have doubled, in 5 years. My household budget, almost the same. My business consumables, ditto. While my ability to increase my income was stifled years ago, with short sighted legislation, allowing anyone that can strike an arc, to call themselves a welder. Thus devaluing the trade in Ontario.

You'll have to excuse me, if I'm not broken hearted.

I'm not asking you to be heart broken. But do you consider these increases normal? (the ones you speak of).

I've made claims or comments about their right to peaceful protest.

Fair enough. It's just that it's not uncommon for folks to discredit an entire movement by focusing on a few acts that don't adequately represent it.
 

CDNBear

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Did you consider it a minor increase?
Nope, I concede to your point.

I'm not asking you to be heart broken. But do you consider these increases normal? (the ones you speak of).
In the grand scheme of things, they are an unpleasant reality.

Fair enough. It's just that it's not uncommon for folks to discredit an entire movement by focusing on a few acts that don't adequately represent it.
This is true, but the movement has to take sincere and drastic steps, IMHO, to point out those that would hijack their cause, for other more violent purposes.

There have been claims, from both OWS and the present protests in Quebec, that organizers and participants are actively hindering lawful prosecution.
 

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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Nope, I concede to your point.

In the grand scheme of things, they are an unpleasant reality.

The way I see it, not only are they an unpleasant reality, but they are also a clear expression of a perverted and skewed economical system where growth and profit is favoured over sustainability and humanitarian / ethical concerns.

You don't need to be an expert in economy to understand that a system obsessed with economical growth in a context of ecological despoilment is doomed to fail. The only reason it's still going on and on is because it can afford to die a relatively slow death, encouraging the money-obsessed to just keep going on and on in their eternal quest for profit, hoping and suspecting they'll never have to personally deal with the uglier consequences of such a system.

It's like a game of musical chair I used to play as a kid. There are 10 kids and 9 chairs. Music plays and we must all run around the chairs happily. But when the music stops, we all desperately run for a seat, often pushing each other to get there first. One person doesn't get a chair and is eliminated in shame and dishonour. One chair is taken away and we go on until there is only one chair left and one winner. It's a fun game, but if for some reason you had to apply it to a life and death situation, it is a horribly cruel and inhuman concept. I don't see pure capitalism as being much different.

Right now the rich are just scrambling to climb the pyramid, hoping they won't be the ones being left out. But eventually, they will. When resources are constantly diminishing, it can only lead to that.

Now I understand I'm largely extending the debate but I think that's the whole point of the student movement in Quebec. The fight is over what kind of economical philosophy we want to apply in our society and yes, the movement does go against the prevailing economical dogmas of North America, so that's why it's ruffling feathers. I understand Ontario students wondering what we in Quebec are complaining about considering what THEY are paying for university. But that goes both ways. We also wonder what the hell Ontario is complaining about when that is the path Ontario chose. The last I heard, education was a provincial jurisdiction. It seems to me that students in the rest of Canada can also fight for more accessible education.
 
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mentalfloss

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The way I see it, not only are they an unpleasant reality, but they are also a clear expression of a perverted and skewed economical system where growth and profit is favoured over sustainability and humanitarian and ethical concerns.

You don't need to be an expert in economy to understand that a system obsessed with economical growth in a context of ecological despoilment is doomed to fail. The only reason it's still going on and on is because it can afford to die a relatively slow death, encouraging the money-obsessed to just keep going on and on in their eternal quest for profit, hoping and suspecting they'll never have to personally deal with the uglier consequences of such a system.

It's like a game of musical chair I used to play as a kid. There are 10 kids and 9 chairs. Music plays and we must all run around the chairs happily. But when the music stops, we all desperately run for a seat, often pushing each other to get there first. One person doesn't get a chair and is eliminated in shame and dishonour. One chair is taken away and we go on until there is only one chair left and one winner. It's a fun game, but if for some reason you had to apply it to a life and death situation, it is a horribly cruel and inhuman concept. I don't see pure capitalism as being much different.

Right now the rich are just scrambling to climb the pyramid, hoping they won't be the ones being left out. But eventually, they will. When resources are constantly diminishing, it can only lead to that.

Now I understand I'm largely extending the debate but I think that's the whole point of the student movement in Quebec. The fight is over what kind of economical philosophy we want to apply in our society and yes, the movement does go against the prevailing economical dogmas of North America, so that's why it's ruffling feathers. I understand Ontario students wondering what we in Quebec are complaining about considering what THEY are paying for university. But that goes both ways. We also wonder what the hell Ontario is complaining about when that is the path Ontario chose. The last I heard, education was a provincial jurisdiction. It seems to me that students in the rest of Canada can also fight for more accessible education.

Excellent post.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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The way I see it, not only are they an unpleasant reality, but they are also a clear expression of a perverted and skewed economical system where growth and profit is favoured over sustainability and humanitarian / ethical concerns.

You don't need to be an expert in economy to understand that a system obsessed with economical growth in a context of ecological despoilment is doomed to fail. The only reason it's still going on and on is because it can afford to die a relatively slow death, encouraging the money-obsessed to just keep going on and on in their eternal quest for profit, hoping and suspecting they'll never have to personally deal with the uglier consequences of such a system.

It's like a game of musical chair I used to play as a kid. There are 10 kids and 9 chairs. Music plays and we must all run around the chairs happily. But when the music stops, we all desperately run for a seat, often pushing each other to get there first. One person doesn't get a chair and is eliminated in shame and dishonour. One chair is taken away and we go on until there is only one chair left and one winner. It's a fun game, but if for some reason you had to apply it to a life and death situation, it is a horribly cruel and inhuman concept. I don't see pure capitalism as being much different.

Right now the rich are just scrambling to climb the pyramid, hoping they won't be the ones being left out. But eventually, they will. When resources are constantly diminishing, it can only lead to that.

Now I understand I'm largely extending the debate but I think that's the whole point of the student movement in Quebec. The fight is over what kind of economical philosophy we want to apply in our society and yes, the movement does go against the prevailing economical dogmas of North America, so that's why it's ruffling feathers. I understand Ontario students wondering what we in Quebec are complaining about considering what THEY are paying for university. But that goes both ways. We also wonder what the hell Ontario is complaining about when that is the path Ontario chose. The last I heard, education was a provincial jurisdiction. It seems to me that students in the rest of Canada can also fight for more accessible education.
You won't get a complaint from me on that excellent post. As I have already conceded to you original point.

Where I draw the line, and I always will, is at violence, destruction, and violation of the rights of others.

The whole of the two movements participants, need to respect the fact that when they act contrary to lawful ordinance, and/or trample the rights of others, they are going to lose support.

I have consistently supported peaceful protest, and condemned violent/destructive insurrection. No matter the group, nor cause.

When a group feels it's cause should supersede the rights of others, they set themselves up to be labeled entitled brats.

Excellent post.
But you don't like it when people expand the topic.

Interesting.