Quebec and Alberta Seperatism

[Jersay]

Now, I have lived in Western Canada, I live on Vancouver Island right now and I was also born in Quebec. I would like to know about Western Seperatism, it seems to me just based in Alberta and they are to scared to say, Albertan seperatism and say its Western Seperatism. And in Quebec, my home province, I have total love for my home province, I loved the Expos, and I enjoy watching the Habs and when I was younger I told my English friends I would be glad to have a country to myself.

However, now that I am a little older and I have gone across this great country three times and I see no reason for seperatism in Quebec or Alberta. Now I will look at both arguments:

Quebec:

We are a seperate culture. We were conquered by another people in 1760 around about 245 + years ago. The French language and its people are the 'black' people of Canada. We want to save the French culture from globilization and Americanization of Quebec. And on and on!

Counter:

French people are a seperate culture, but so are the aboriginal peoples of Canada. The creation of the French province was needed between the Indians-English and French. In 1837 the rebellion that French people claim was their persecution by English, was started by the English-Irish people of Lower Canada, not the French. Yes, the French people were conquered by the English 245 + years ago, but other peoples have been conquered by other people and they don't want to seperate. Quebec now has a 2.1 billion dollar debt to pay off, not several hundred million. And if they are a have-not province there is no way they will be able to pay Canada back.

Also, the Indian people of Quebec, will not seperate with Quebec along with Montreal and Quebec City (Quebec City because they need Canadian and American tourists to survive.) The natives will not go along with the French because of Oka. So not only will the reserves go to Canada, but the traditional territory that has been recognized by the Canadian government.

Now, I believe if discussions could begin between everyone to get Quebec back into the fold, because we cannont have a province that hasn't signed the Constitution.

Alberta:

has huge resources. Has become a have province and wants to be influential within Canada. However, its views contrivene the majority of Canadians, same-sex marriages, abortion among others, and they do not feel that these should be forced on them. Trudeau did not help with giving them the finger.

Now I believe Alberta does have some claims that are worthy, however, if they continue with 'Western' seperation, and not Alberta seperation they will not win.

However, people should discuss how Alberta should be brought into the Canadian fold again.

And they complain that they want a Western voice, it is important to note Harper was born in Toronto, he is a good Ontarian boy.

 

[no1important]

RE: Quebec and Alberta Se

The oil boom aint gonna last forever and when it dries up and if Alberta was to have seperated, what are they gonna do then? Beg to come back?

Personally they ain't gonna go anywhere.

 

[Semperfi_dani]

RE: Quebec and Alberta Se

What about the poor souls who live here who want to seperate from Alberta. Hahahaha. J/K?

Seriously, its always part of the Alberta independant spirit thing. Have of it might be real, but I suspect the larger cries are just cuz it seems to be this perception that there is this large injustice put upon Alberta.

I bug my coworker about this all the time because he bitches about the NEP and this and that. I always say to him..."Do you drive a luxery car"..his response.."yes"...I say, "do you have a expensive house"...he goes "yes"...I go...are you suffering to put food on the table or clothes on the back..."yes"...
THAN WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT.

I mean for cripes sakes, that NEP thing was over twenty years ago, the economy and oil boom tanked around the world, and they did not have the NEP...and the oil industry and rich people in Alberta are not exactly hurting now.

What a grave injustice these people feel as they go to their big houses in their SUV/luxery cars eating prime rib.

Wow..that turned into a rant! Hahaha.

Lovingly yours..the poor average albertan who struggles to make ends meet and does not blame the rest of canada for all that ails me.

 

[Semperfi_dani]

RE: Quebec and Alberta Se

Incidently though..there are some legitimate ideas that have come from Alberta (or western conservative idealogues) that might be a good idea, so I am not sure why they would not be embraced.

The biggest one that comes to mind is an elected equal senate.

I for the life of me do not understand why the rest of canada does not see merit in electing senators and holding them accountable, instead of having patronage lifetime appointments by people who 9 times out of 10 are not suited for political life, assuming they show up to serve at all that is....

 

[Semperfi_dani]

RE: Quebec and Alberta Se

Sorry..and just to add one more thing.

Maybe the complaint isnt' so much about the kinds of policies, but that any policy idea that comes from east of Thunderbay seems to be shot down, but if that exact same idea where to come from Ont/Que, it would be an instant law?

Perception is key here.

If that elected senate idea sprang from some Liberal in big town Ontario...would we now have a reformed Senate. Have we gotton to the point where any idea from the west is a bad idea and not worth the discussion?

 

[Reverend Blair]

If that elected senate idea sprang from some Liberal in big town Ontario...would we now have a reformed Senate.

I hope not, and I spent a lot of my life in Saskatchewan where the idea has actual support.

The thing about a EEE senate is that it will cripple our political system. There will be a perpetual deadlock between the House and the Senate. That is also inherently undemocratic because the House is represented at least least nominally by population and a EEE Senate would give equal representation to each province.

I've spent most of my life in Sasktchewan and Manitoba, two provinces that would benefit a lot from a EEE Senate, but in the end it would be bad for Canada.

 

[Grover Knight]

If the Liberals keep supporting Liberals, keep pushing there agenda, dont listen to ideas of others they will keep helping seperatists. Alberta is ignored, Quebec is ignored, Paul Martin can be thanked.

 

[Jersay]

However, I don't even know why the seperatism is even starting. Especially in Quebec. The French language is recognized and it is Canada's second language. They have the French language instilled in schools so most students are French.

In the 1960s, yes, they were treated as second class citizens, as I have been told by my parents. However, things have changed since the 1960s.

In Alberta, yes they have been ignored, but other provinces have been ignored as well. Could the threat of seperatism be a ploy to gather more attention?

Finally, at least every province at one point in time have done the separatist card. However, no one has ever considered, I mean other nations, have accepted any of these provinces if they ever seperated. France did support Quebec independence but since 1991, they turn back the seperatists every time they want French support saying they support Canada. And I believe America wouldn't want seperatist 'disturbances' along its border, so it would deal with the matter.

 

[LeftCoast]

RE: Quebec and Alberta Se

Alberta seperatists are a very small minority of neoconservative cry babies.

First of all, Alberta does not have the right to separate. International law recognizes the right of people groups to self determination. Alberta is not a recognizable people group. It is a geo-political region bounded by arbitrary lines drawn on a map. There are no distinct historical, cultural, ethnic, religious or language basis to distinguish Albertans from other Canadians.

Quebec on the other hand, existed as a seperate geo-political entity, with a distinct history, culture, language and religion prior to the formation of the Dominion of Canada. Quebecois are a people group - and therefor have the right to self determination. Albertans are not a people group and have no such right.


Secondly, with the rise of the new oil boom in Alberta and the associated in migration of people from other parts of Canada and the United States, Alberta has a lot of people who have deeper personal connections to other regions of Canada.

IMO - those in Alberta who would actually vote to separate amount to a very tiny minority that are best just ignored.

 

[Jersay]

Yes, I am French mine you, but there are other minority groups in countries that work to betterment of the nation without supporting seperatism, and sometimes they have worst situations then Quebec people. However, the French in Canada are a seperate distinct culture and they are one of the founding peoples of Canada. However, in the 1960s, and before, their situation was awful which might make seperatism, but seperatism now is a mute point. It wouldn't change anything.

 

[Karlin]

Alberta seperatists are a very small minority of neoconservative cry babies. -Leftcoast quote

I think thats true.
I lived in Alberta all my life until 4 years ago... and I certainly never thought of separatism as a good idea.

Not listened to? I don't even know what about.... and neither do my friends there. That small NeoCon group is saying things like that as a vielded threat.

They are just putting bargaining chips into play, likely a hedge against a NEP. They KNOW they "have too much" in Alberta, and that Canada could/would/should take some of it to spread around....
But it is important to know that "have too much" does NOT apply to the average person living in Alberta, that extra money [from oil mostly] goes to , of course, the Elite Albertans, business, and government in royalty revenue. And ITs THEM who are raising this separatists stink....

 

[the caracal kid]

a separate alberta? it sounds so funny! the separatists are just suffering from over-inflated egos and over-inflated delusions of grandeure.

 

[Semperfi_dani]

RE: Quebec and Alberta Se

Fact of the matter is that neither seperation will happen in our lifetime. There will always be a struggle to define provincial and federal jurisdictions, and when the provinces feel that the power is too much in Ottawa's hand, the seperation card is played. Its a useful but getting increasingly pointless bargaining tool.

However, that is today. 5 years from now, who knows what kind of political, cultural atmosphere we will be living in. Name one country in the G8 that has not suffered at some point in their history a disparity within their nations that have either caused or almost caused seperation. (England- Ireland, Wales, Scottland) (Russia - they were once the USSR and now have the Chechny (sp?) issue) (USA- Civil War) (Spain- Basque seperatists which also affects France's borders too) and so on and so forth.

And sometimes it takes so little to spark the movement. It could be as simple as a radio strike at the CBC or a suspension of a french hocky player that could stir the pot.

So i guess what I am saying is that yes its a tool, but lets not ever take for granted that this country will remain unified. It takes so little to start an avelance.

 

[Laika]

RE: Quebec and Alberta Se

Canada is too cold to seriously entertain any thought of separation. We need to stay close to share our body warmth against the long, harsh winters.

 

[Doryman]

Quebec:

We are a seperate culture. We were conquered by another people in 1760 around about 245 + years ago. The French language and its people are the 'black' people of Canada.


Whaaaaa....? I never knew the Seperatistos believed they were the canadian version of the American Blacks,, but if they do that's bullshittery to the maximum!!! Just comparing the lot of a rich, well-treated province to that of a group who have gone through centuries of Slavery, Racism and even dodgy medical experimentation is utterly contemptible and almost laughable. No-one in Canada has been treated as poorly as Blacks in America. No-one. THe Natives come close, but even they couldn't claim a list of grievances equal to African-Americans. I just found a whole new reason to despise Quebecois Seperatists. Sheesh.



"Quebec on the other hand, existed as a seperate geo-political entity, with a distinct history, culture, language and religion prior to the formation of the Dominion of Canada. Quebecois are a people group - and therefor have the right to self determination. Albertans are not a people group and have no such right."

Mmmm... perhaps.. but if you are going to allow people to seperate based on their ties to Canada, then almost every group in Canada could make a case for leaving. All the Natives could, for instance. And by the parameters given above, Newfoundland herself could be gone lickety-split if she so chose...

However, these seperations, ANY seperations would be extremely stupid. Especially Alberta, which they will find out 50 years from now when the oil dries up.

 

[Calberty]

Quebec will achieve independence. quebec today is a 'de facto' sovereign state without the formal tappings. Alberta will be the same in a decade or so. I doubt if Alberta will ever be independent but will a 'firewall' will go up around it as Quebec has today.

Canada is less relevent everyday. I'm an Albertan first and the vast majority of Quebecers, even federalists, when polled call themselves Quebecers first.

 

[s_lone]

Quebec:

We are a seperate culture. We were conquered by another people in 1760 around about 245 + years ago. The French language and its people are the 'black' people of Canada.


Whaaaaa....? I never knew the Seperatistos believed they were the canadian version of the American Blacks,, but if they do that's bullshittery to the maximum!!! Just comparing the lot of a rich, well-treated province to that of a group who have gone through centuries of Slavery, Racism and even dodgy medical experimentation is utterly contemptible and almost laughable. No-one in Canada has been treated as poorly as Blacks in America. No-one. THe Natives come close, but even they couldn't claim a list of grievances equal to African-Americans. I just found a whole new reason to despise Quebecois Seperatists. Sheesh.



"Quebec on the other hand, existed as a seperate geo-political entity, with a distinct history, culture, language and religion prior to the formation of the Dominion of Canada. Quebecois are a people group - and therefor have the right to self determination. Albertans are not a people group and have no such right."

Mmmm... perhaps.. but if you are going to allow people to seperate based on their ties to Canada, then almost every group in Canada could make a case for leaving. All the Natives could, for instance. And by the parameters given above, Newfoundland herself could be gone lickety-split if she so chose...

However, these seperations, ANY seperations would be extremely stupid. Especially Alberta, which they will find out 50 years from now when the oil dries up.

You're right, the situation of Quebecers certainly cannot be compared in any way to the one of Afro-Americans. But come on! Don't be foolish. There are practically no Quebecers who really think that... You are finding very bad reasons to despise seperatists.

 

[the caracal kid]

just to note the personal experience of one person i know that really shocked me:

now he is not quebecois, as he will stress if asked. He is a french canadian from northern ontario.

he told me of when he first moved to toronto after finishing highschool. He told me of being called the "nigger of the north" by many people in toronto along with quite a few other slurs.

So, while based on my own travels and experiences i would not have ever thought of first language french canadians as being treated differently than their english speaking counterparts, my friend's experiences show that at least for one person the reality is quite different.

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Quebec and Alberta Seperatism

just to note the personal experience of one person i know that really shocked me:

now he is not quebecois, as he will stress if asked. He is a french canadian from northern ontario.

he told me of when he first moved to toronto after finishing highschool. He told me of being called the "nigger of the north" by many people in toronto along with quite a few other slurs.

So, while based on my own travels and experiences i would not have ever thought of first language french canadians as being treated differently than their english speaking counterparts, my friend's experiences show that at least for one person the reality is quite different.

I've heard that term myself, here in sunny Ottawa.

I've heard of french Canadian saying similar things after returning from Alberta. I've heard Albertan's say they prefer Newfies as opposed to frenchmen because frenchmen are idiots. Not saying I agree, just that I've heard lots of derogatory remarks about frenchmen that all in line with the comments posted here.

 

[Doryman]

come on! Don't be foolish. There are practically no Quebecers who really think that... You are finding very bad reasons to despise seperatists.[/quote]


Well, the guy who posted that was Quebecer, so I assumed he knew a little about what Quebecers think.