Philosophically speaking, religion is a hoax

[lieexpsr]

To whom it may concern- If you must interfere here with your childish attacks against me and your childish insults, then the least you can do is educate yourself a little.

http://www.csubak.edu/~gsantos/img0012.html

If this link doesn't tell of the lines which were miles long then find one that does. I don't have time for any of your foolishness. And watch the personal attacks and insults because you will be immediately reported if you continue.

Someone please report this post.

 

[lieexpsr]

Let's put it another way then. There's no evidence in support of any particular religious belief that points inevitably, logically, and consistently at its being accurate. No evidence or argument you can advance in support of your particular view of the creator, for instance, doesn't apply equally well to any of the other gods humanity has invented, and it's clear from history that every god has had believers just as fervent as any contemporary believers in Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, or whatever anyone chooses to call him. There's no evidence that points specifically at the correctness of the Catholic view, the Islamic view, the Jewish view, or anything else, and any evidence you *can* point to always has more prosaic explanations than the supernatural one offered.

Science has but one "article of faith," if you wish to call it that, which is that nature is consistent and comprehensible. That's the essential axiom, because if it's not true, there's no point in doing science. And it *is* certainly just an axiom, an unprovable assumption. Induction, however, strongly suggests it's true, in that we've found no case in over 400 years of trying where nature on investigation has not proven to be consistent and comprehensible. There is much we don't know or understand fully, of course, but there's no reason to think we'll never understand. That's the real knock against religion, from my perspective. It is demonstrably not consistent or comprehensible; you'll always come to a point where you'll be told something is an unknowable mystery, and that's simply not a useful answer. It's an avoidance of an answer. .

Mighty intellect indeed in this case rightleft! Let me add:

Science: Prove us wrong and we will honour you with our highest award.

Religion: Prove us wrong and we will scoff at you and condemn you to burn in hell.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

To whom it may concern- If you must interfere here with your childish attacks against me and your childish insults,

The level of condescension and ego you continue to display here really doesn't put you in a strong position to complain. You're practically begging for it.

 

[lieexpsr]

The level of condescension and ego you continue to display here really doesn't put you in a strong position to complain. You're practically begging for it.

Well I hope you understand that post wasn't directed toward you! I didn't mention any names because the offending party will know who he is and will hopefully stop it. You can accuse me of having a big ego and you may very well be right but I fail to see why that particular post would annoy you. And of course, in case you misunderstood my post directed at you, I assure you it was a sincere compliment.

Now let's try to keep it on track because there have been some very bright posts containing some very good points which can be discussed here. Maybe you could help a little in attempting to discourage the troolers and the insulters. ??

 

[karrie]

karrie- Sorry but I must have missed it. If sanctus is a catholic then it makes a lot of difference. If he was a southern Baptist who are strictly literal believers then that would also make a difference to my argument posed against his religious beliefs. But why are you trying to protect him karrie? Do you feel some kind of pity for him when he is challenged by an atheist? What is it? Don't avoid the questions karrie. I'm sure sanctus doesn't feel he needs to be protected. I'm sure he doesn't feel he needs to hide his demoninational faith in any way. Perhaps you think it is wrong to challenge religious people? If that's the problem then you should get over it or leave now. It's entirely your choice.

I wasn't trying to 'protect' sanctus. I asked you this question previously, in regards to why you required to know my religious background in order to debate me. I thought perhaps, since you're using the same tactic again, requiring that you peg sanctus' belief before you're willing to debate him, I might be able to get a decent answer this time as to why you do that. It was a matter of curiosity. I really truly think sanctus, whom I have a great deal of respect for, can trounce you soundly in virtually any debate, and is definitely not needing any defense from little ol' me.

 

[karrie]

Why do you persist in quoting an atheist? Not that I don't enjoy it because I am a fan of Douglas Adams too.

I don't categorize him by his belief system. he made many humorous observances of the universe, man, and the nature of religious notions. I found his writings very inspiring, and when they apply, I don't hesitate to have a chuckle over how they tie into a conversation.

 

[westmanguy]

Your wrong about church-goers.

In Winnipeg, 150 000 people goto some church every sunday. Pop. of winnipeg: 650 000. Besides, people don't NEED to attend a church to be religious, or have a belief in something more.

And, I do believe in the rapture and armeggedon. I personally believe, every person that has accepted Jesus, will goto Heaven. I believe at EVERYONES death, everyone will come before God, and be judged, and sent to Heaven or Hell. I also would like to point out some 1.5-2 BILLION people chose Jesus Christ as their savior. Astounding number of new Christians in China now, many Chinese are converting to Christianity. A belief like this, which has so many followers, can't easily be called a HOAX. I don't think the world lasts forever. I think the rapture will come and 7 years of tribulation, where man will get a second chance.

And I believe Heaven and Hell is needed. If everyone was granted to Heaven, it would make no sense. Just like on earth, you follow the laws, you live your life freely, if you break laws, you goto jail. If you choose God, you goto Heaven, if you don't you goto Hell. The world needs judgment and concequence. And God is the ulitmate judgement and decider of concequence.

I hate to say this. But I personally feel, anyone who doesn't choose Jesus Christ as their savior, will goto Hell at death, suffer there, then after armegedon, will come to the final battle, and will goto a brimstone lake for 1000 years, while God and his people rein on earth, untowhich after the 1000 years, the souls will be erased.

Thats my belief, of fate after death.. and many people (1.5-2 billion, in fact), would agree with me.

World needs judgement and concequence, and your life needs to be judged too.

 

[lieexpsr]

Some statistics:

And again, not that it matters but atheists are ranked #4.

http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/index.html

karrie- And once again I will try to explain my perfectly legitimate reason for wanting to know sanctus's religious faith.

If he is Jehovahs witness I would attack his religion with questions on that faith. If he was a Mormon I would attack his religion on the idiocyncracies of that faith. If he was a believer in one of the more modern naturalist religions then my attacks would be redundant if I questioning the literalist beliefs of the southern Baptists such as their adherence to the ridiculous notion that the earth is 10000 years old. And once again karrie, why do you object? I have answered your question honestly and now you can reciprocate and answer mine.

And beyond that, if sanctus wants to try to trounce me in any debate then I welcome him to try. I think he has already alluded to the simple fact that religion can not be argued against science and vice versa so at the moment I think he is choosing to not try, or cop out, whatever you prefer. Furthermore little ol you, I think you need to be more to the point and less intent on attacking me. I am assuming that you are a fairly well educated person and therefore you are capable of much better.

What do you think of my response to westmanguy and his question on the differences in the brains of Christians and atheists? Have a shot at a rebuttal to my assertions in that regard. Show us what you are made of!

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Well I hope you understand that post wasn't directed toward you! I

Yes, I understood that, and it wasn't what I was responding to. I was thinking more broadly about the attitude you've displayed from the beginning. These are all quotes copied and pasted directly from your posts in this thread:

In fact they are challenged to present something to prove that there is anything of substance which causes them to hold to their silly faiths.

all those who believe in celestial teapots, flying spaghetti monsters, God, Santa Claus, and other assorted sky fairies.

Now go do your homework and come back when you have prepared yourself with an informed rebuttal of 'my' beliefs.

But then of course for people like yourself, you can't even begin to contemplate some of these questions

the sky fairy believers fear of death and dying they would have no reason to practice their silliness

Don't try to complicate these primitive people's actions [in reference to aboriginals]

And thanks for supplying the links. I find it too time consuming to do that and it's nice to have someone who will do it for me.

Modern day religious leaders are just as aware as you and I that their religious beliefs pose problems for themselves. They understand that their followers are incapable of a deeper understanding

I am the greatest thing since sliced bread.

when it comes right down to it there is hardly anything that I am not good at.

There's more, but I don't see any need to belabour the point any further. You've been arrogant, patronizing, egotistical, and condescending from the beginning. You can hardly be surprised when the people you're insulting respond in kind.

 

[westmanguy]

Parent introduce their off-spring to their belief. But ultimately, it comes to that person on deciding. After they leave home and get into the real world, its up to them to choose if their religion is correct or not.

Parents instill the values of the church, but only one person, you, can choose to believe them.

2 billion people are Christians. 2 BILLION. Pop of world is 6.5 bill. Nearly 1 in 3 of all the people on EARTH believe in God, and Jesus Christ as their savior.

If that doesn't speak mountains, I don't know what does.

 

[lieexpsr]

Your wrong about church-goers.

In Winnipeg, 150 000 people goto some church every sunday. Pop. of winnipeg: 650 000. Besides, people don't NEED to attend a church to be religious, or have a belief in something more.

And, I do believe in the rapture and armeggedon. I personally believe, every person that has accepted Jesus, will goto Heaven. I believe at EVERYONES death, everyone will come before God, and be judged, and sent to Heaven or Hell. I also would like to point out some 1.5-2 BILLION people chose Jesus Christ as their savior. Astounding number of new Christians in China now, many Chinese are converting to Christianity. A belief like this, which has so many followers, can't easily be called a HOAX. I don't think the world lasts forever. I think the rapture will come and 7 years of tribulation, where man will get a second chance.

And I believe Heaven and Hell is needed. If everyone was granted to Heaven, it would make no sense. Just like on earth, you follow the laws, you live your life freely, if you break laws, you goto jail. If you choose God, you goto Heaven, if you don't you goto Hell. The world needs judgment and concequence. And God is the ulitmate judgement and decider of concequence.

I hate to say this. But I personally feel, anyone who doesn't choose Jesus Christ as their savior, will goto Hell at death, suffer there, then after armegedon, will come to the final battle, and will goto a brimstone lake for 1000 years, while God and his people rein on earth, untowhich after the 1000 years, the souls will be erased.

Thats my belief, of fate after death.. and many people (1.5-2 billion, in fact), would agree with me.

World needs judgement and concequence, and your life needs to be judged too.

WEll you are entitled to your beliefs but I'm afraid I have very little respect for them. I don't know what denomination you are but it does appear to differ somewhat with the catholic faith and so I would expect the catholics to take great exception to your ideas. But nevertheless, let's deal with the problems I have with your brand.

Of all the people living on the face of the earth (6.5 billion) you are condemning at least 4.5 billion to your hellfires, etc. You are doing this in most instances for two reasons. One, they believe in a different religin from yours because they were born into a different religion, and two, because they never did have the opportunity to be introduced to your particular god. Frankly, I find that an evi, selfish, and ugly proposition and for that reason I will unequivocally condemn your beliefs.

But you haven't commented yet on the differences in our brains and the fact that you are a particular brand of Christian only because you were born into that brand and your parents were of that brand. how do you feel about the proposition that those people who were not lucky enough to be born into the world's only one religion whose believers will be raptured, are doomed?

I'm really asking the question, firstly because you brought up the question on brain differences, but secondly because I want you to illustrate to all of us now the degree of compassion which you religious people have.

Let me assure you right here and now. Atheists do not condemn innocent men, women, and children to a neverending immolation in the furnaces of hell. It appears that our levels of compassion differ in at least that respect. I'll go on to illustrate more as we proceed. And I'll ask others if they want to align themselves with you and your beliefs on the fate of all others who are not of your faith. They won't answer for the most part but the point will get across nonetheless.

 

[karrie]

And once again karrie, why do you object? I have answered your question honestly and now you can reciprocate and answer mine.

And beyond that, if sanctus wants to try to trounce me in any debate then I welcome him to try. I think he has already alluded to the simple fact that religion can not be argued against science and vice versa so at the moment I think he is choosing to not try, or cop out, whatever you prefer. Furthermore little ol you, I think you need to be more to the point and less intent on attacking me. I am assuming that you are a fairly well educated person and therefore you are capable of much better.

What do you think of my response to westmanguy and his question on the differences in the brains of Christians and atheists? Have a shot at a rebuttal to my assertions in that regard. Show us what you are made of!

I never said I objected to you asking sanctus, I simply asked what difference it made, and you have answered that. Don't take question asking as a personal attack, trust me, it's not. I ask many questions of many people. I love to learn what motivates the way a person argues. It gives a much clearer picture of who a person is.

Regarding your answer to Westman about brains, I believe your thinking is a bit flawed as the tendency to follow a religion is not merely a matter of upbringing. I've seen studies which show that spiritual people have different brain activation patterns than the non-religious. There is theory of a gene which controls the specific center of the brain which creates the perception of 'something more' being at work in the universe. There have even been cases of epilepsy which center around seizures in this area of the brain, creating sudden bursts of 'understanding it all', which disappear once the seizure does. Even if you were born to religious parents, your genetic code, or possibly even environmental factors, may leave you with no activity in that area, and lead you to decide that there is in fact nothing more to this universe than its most simple scientific bases. While societal factors are undeniably an influence, I think our perceptual set leads to the biggest difference of how an adult chooses their path.

 

[lieexpsr]

Parent introduce their off-spring to their belief. But ultimately, it comes to that person on deciding. After they leave home and get into the real world, its up to them to choose if their religion is correct or not.

Parents instill the values of the church, but only one person, you, can choose to believe them.

2 billion people are Christians. 2 BILLION. Pop of world is 6.5 bill. Nearly 1 in 3 of all the people on EARTH believe in God, and Jesus Christ as their savior.

If that doesn't speak mountains, I don't know what does.

You're only avoiding the questions. It is an undisputable fact that the religion you were born with as for example, one of the main religions, is the religion you will stick with in the overwhelming majority of cases. Admittedly there are a few Christians who will become Buddhist, etc. Now face the question head on and tell us how all those 4.5 billion deserve the fate you have cooked up for them.

And don't convince me, convince those other people who are going to burn in your hell. I am not going to because I am an atheist. Tell the native indians on this forum so we can get a feeling how they like the idea. Tell sanctus he's wroing because he's a catholic. Tell karrie because he/she is some other brand. Do you think they are going to sympathize with my empathy or do you think they are going to sympathize with your vicious, evil, hateful, closeminded, and perverted ideas on the fate of the 4.5 billion others?

 

[westmanguy]

All Christians believe in Hell. Within the religion, people differ on how Hell works, and if it ends, and other issues.

And I said in my latest post, that a child has values introduced to him by his/her parent's religion. But its always ultimately their decision to decide if its true or not.
You can't be born into or have a belief forced upon you. You just can't. It can be introduced to you, but YOU decide. Thats what your not getting.

Secondly, if it was, everyone goes to Heaven, and has an eternal afterlife, what would be the point of religion. I wouldn't need to believe or do anything, because I would arlready be garunteed in.

The belief of Hell, comes from the belief in ULTIMATE JUDGMENT AND CONCEQUENCE.

Christians want to know, that those who didn't choose Jesus, will not be given a ticket in, and they want to know that criminals, and those we consider truly evil, aren't in Heaven, but face the concequence of Hell.

Now, nobody on earth decides, who goes to hell and heaven, Most all Christians believe that when a person dies, ALL of us, come to God and are judged. And only him, makes the judgment. We can't say "you and you are going to Hell", because we believe only 1 person makes that choice.

And for you, you said you condemn my belief, because it says the 4.5 non-believers of Christianity will go to Hell. Well you made a twisted statment, that website of yours said 885 million are atheists. So almost all religions, except Buddahism and Judaism, believe in ultimate judgement and concequence: aka Hell. So you really are condemning 4.5-5 billion people.

Glad to know you condemn and hate so many people.

Edit: I believe Catholics, Protestants, Anglacins, and anyone else who believes in the Bible, will go to Heaven. The different denominations, have variations on interpruttations and such, but I believe all those denominations go to Heaven.

And I believe in Hell, because I believe all human life must have ultimate judgment and concequence. Just like on earth where we are judged and given our concequence, I think their is a final, ultimate stage of that, at death.

 

[lieexpsr]

I never said I objected to you asking sanctus, I simply asked what difference it made, and you have answered that. Don't take question asking as a personal attack, trust me, it's not. I ask many questions of many people. I love to learn what motivates the way a person argues. It gives a much clearer picture of who a person is.

Regarding your answer to Westman about brains, I believe your thinking is a bit flawed as the tendency to follow a religion is not merely a matter of upbringing. I've seen studies which show that spiritual people have different brain activation patterns than the non-religious. There is theory of a gene which controls the specific center of the brain which creates the perception of 'something more' being at work in the universe. There have even been cases of epilepsy which center around seizures in this area of the brain, creating sudden bursts of 'understanding it all', which disappear once the seizure does. Even if you were born to religious parents, your genetic code, or possibly even environmental factors, may leave you with no activity in that area, and lead you to decide that there is in fact nothing more to this universe than its most simple scientific bases. While societal factors are undeniably an influence, I think our perceptual set leads to the biggest difference of how an adult chooses their path.

You are right in some of the things you say. The choice of religion is not merely a matter of upbringing or the family you were born into or the country you were born into, but it is mostly. Why do you want to deny this simple fact, if not to be contrary? Don't you think there is a logical reason why there are so many Muslims in some M.E. countries as opposed to the U.S. where there are so many Christians and the number is increasing, as opposed to the rest of the world where the number is declining? Your comments on brain patterns, seizures, etc. are all covered in the original link I posted for Dawkins site. You really do owe it to yourself to listen to the whole 15 hours. And as for our perceptual set, the U.S. with it's 90% believers as opposed to much lower levels in man other countries proves you are wrong. Among several other proofs which the link presents through highly esteemed scientists, to prove you wrong.

Lose your anger and I will lose mine toward you. We have a lot in common!

 

[westmanguy]

If your atheist, fine. But why are you trying to convert people to atheism. You are free to believe what you want, but I don't like the fact your shoving us all to watch this 15 hour video of lies and fabrications, to convert people to atheism.

As a Christian I respect people of Muslim, Judaism, Buddahism, and other religions. But, a long time ago, I lost all respect and tolerance to atheism.

To most religious people, it is extremely hard to respect and tolerate a person who denies an existence of a God, and is so hardened in their beliefs, and so wanting to make others jump to their side.

 

[lieexpsr]

westmanguy- There is nothing I am not getting and the rest of your reply is utter nonsense which lacks substance. Read my post to karrie on why you are a Christian and not a Buddhist or a Muslim.

You said: " And for you, you said you condemn my belief, because it says the 4.5 non-believers of Christianity will go to Hell. Well you made a twisted statment, that website of yours said 885 million are atheists. So almost all religions, except Buddahism and Judaism, believe in ultimate judgement and concequence: aka Hell. So you really are condemning 4.5-5 billion people."

Sorry but it's not all brands of Christianity that believe that other different brands of Christians believe that the others are saved. In fact the majority condemn the other brands to hell. I don't know what your brand is so I don't know if you are being honest or not. I suspect you may not be but it's not all important. Generally speaking, Christians condemn all the others to hell. Your homework assignment is to prove it ain't so. And I have already told you, I don't condemn anybody, it's your religion that does that! Nice dodge but it's not new or original in any way.

Pretending it is not true is only being stubborn. I gotta go so have a nice day. Talk to you all later.

 

[marygaspe]

vice versa so at the moment I think he is choosing to not try, or cop out, whatever you prefer. Furthermore little ol you, I think you need to be more to the point and less intent!

I very much doubt you've caused Sanctus to "cop-out" or avoid arguing with you.That's your own arrogance. If you were a clever as you believe yourself to be, you'd realize today is Sunday. That being so,Sanctus is usually not on-line most of Sunday for obvious reasons. I am very confidant he'll tackle your silly arguments when he comes online;-)

 

[westmanguy]

You just said in a previous post, that you condemn my beliefs, and the people like me for having those beliefs. Hypoctritacal...

I don't condemn the rest to Hell. Only God can make the judgment and concequences. And it would be very wrong of me to cast a group of people to Hell, when I believe only one person can be the decider of that.

Once again, Hell is the belief in ULTIMATE JUDGMENT AND CONCEQUENCE.

And denying Christianity is a sin. Because I am 100% sure that Christianity is the way. Just as your 100% sure it is not.

 

[lieexpsr]

If your atheist, fine. But why are you trying to convert people to atheism. You are free to believe what you want, but I don't like the fact your shoving us all to watch this 15 hour video of lies and fabrications, to convert people to atheism.

As a Christian I respect people of Muslim, Judaism, Buddahism, and other religions. But, a long time ago, I lost all respect and tolerance to atheism.

To most religious people, it is extremely hard to respect and tolerate a person who denies an existence of a God, and is so hardened in their beliefs, and so wanting to make others jump to their side.

If you don't want to hear my attempts to convert you then go away. If you want to take part in a discussion on a forum where you will hear my opinions then by all means stay. Watch the video if you want but don't call it lies before you even know what it says. No, you don't respect others and I have proven that fact. You condemn 4.5 billion people who have never had the opportunity to meet your god, to hellfires. Your religion forced you to be intolerant.

I am not as an atheist asking for your respect. You can rest assured that I don't respect your beliefs, even though I have not come to a conclusion on whether or not I respect you yet.