Philosophically speaking, religion is a hoax

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
2,432
8
38
lol
This atheist is positive that the purpose of life is to live it; no more, no less. I have no problem with being dead for millions of years, being born, living 70 or so years, dying, and being dead for millions more years. Being dead is absolutely no inconvenience to me at all.

Your being alive or dead makes no difference in the question of whether religion is a hoax.

Who cares whether the Athesist is 'positive' ... they are missing the ability to convieve of God.

There is a belief, don't remember which religion it is but it probably applies to all, and that is that those that don't believe, don't have it and those that do believe, do. For example, if it is in your religion to believe in an afterlife, then only those that believe in an afterlife will find it and those that don't believe, will never see it.

The millions of years bit is rather dramatic, but irrelevant.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
107
63
71
50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
Your being alive or dead makes no difference in the question of whether religion is a hoax.
Someone brought the subject of death up. I think it has quite a bit to do with religions and hoaxes. You ordering me to shut up?

Who cares whether the Athesist is 'positive' ... they are missing the ability to convieve of God.
How do you know what others can imagine?

There is a belief, don't remember which religion it is but it probably applies to all, and that is that those that don't believe, don't have it and those that do believe, do. For example, if it is in your religion to believe in an afterlife, then only those that believe in an afterlife will find it and those that don't believe, will never see it.
And what does that have to do with hoaxes?

The millions of years bit is rather dramatic, but irrelevant.
I meant it to be comical. Excuse the fk outta me.
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
2,432
8
38
Someone brought the subject of death up. I think it has quite a bit to do with religions and hoaxes. You ordering me to shut up?

How do you know what others can imagine?

And what does that have to do with hoaxes?

I meant it to be comical. Excuse the fk outta me.

I know what you mean .. run across a teenager and the next thing you know, you're talking about the meaning and meaningliessness of life.

I enjoy the debate ... always ...

I know that people that think religion is a hoax are missing something because at the very least everyone should agree that religion is the history of morality (thou shalt not sin), health (eating pork and trichinoses or refridgeration), and history (Ruth begat) ... and then there was Christianity and Muslim ... a couple of the Western Religions. Eastern Religions have the inner God.
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
2,432
8
38
Fairies in the sky or a belief in something intangible, esoteric and concrete.

Is there a God?

Is Religion a Hoax.

OH No!!! ... deluded? Oh no... meltdown now. Religion is a hoax. ... a million years before I am to be reborn.

iio ooy oops.

Better ... Religion is not a Hoax
 
  • Like
Reactions: mapleleafgirl

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
2
18
I would say religions are mostly control mechanisms to exercise power over people and they are evil cynical and destructive, but it would be a mistake to confuse them with trees and animals and wind earth and fire which are all real and all powerful and not the product of intentional invention.

That's an interesting take on it darkbeaver. Earth, wind, and fire are the three elements that the earth is made up of aren't they. And then you throw in animals and trees but exclude other plants? What do you consider the difference between those five which makes them all powerful and the others such as other plants which aren't. This is a totally new take on it to me! Although I do agree that religions are destructive and evil, including all the primitive beliefs as well.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
107
63
71
50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
Ah, nuts!
Religions can only be the reflection of the people in them. Same as any other society. If the people are evil, the society is evil; f the people are charitable, the society is charitable; if the people are capitalistic, so is their society; etc.
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
2
18
See, this is why I asked the OP to give a definition of what he was trying to discuss. Because to me, a tribe of Africans who revere the snakes in the grass around their huts, are practising a religion. They're not away from nature, they are not irreverant of its power. Would you say the first nations people were irreverant toward nature? I wouldn't by any means. yet they had a religion, a collection of beliefs that helped govern how they interacted, how they treated the earth, how they treated animals, how they treated eachother.

You may be quite wrong to assume that the first nations peole were irreverant toward nature. From all the evidence I've seen they are quite careless with nature. That is, from any history I've read of their behariour here on the west coast and of course from any present day evidence of their behaviour toward conservation efforts. They aren't the only poachers of game animals but they certainly show up in large numbers of those arrested. They aren't the only ones who overfish the salmon resources but you can always count on a lot of them being there taking more than they are legally entitled to. They are the onlly ones stringing nets accross certain rivers in my area when they are told to leave an open area for returning salmon to move upstream. And to go on some of the reserves on Vancouver Island it immediately becomes quite evident that they are not good stewards of their land. Somehow all the evidence I see tells me that they aren't exactly all irreverent toward nature! But perhaps I am missing something that you are aware of. Why not tell us all about it? Keeping in mind of course that I'm not singling them out as much as I am giving you some facts to show that you are not right all of the time at least. And yes, before you mention it, I am aware that there are many white people who are ignorant careless filthy pigs when it comes to being irreverent toward nature.
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
2
18
As a Christian, some of these comments deeply disturb me.

You can't ask for proof of God. Religion is based on faith. I don't have blind faith. God sent Jesus and worked through profits to Christianity some basis and truth through miracles and such. But he left the rest to faith.

2 important things:

Science will NEVER answer these 2 things:

1) Origin of everything. That can't be answered.. I could go in depth, but *yawn* these debates tire me out. Just think.. you can't come up with an answer for the origin of everything.

2) Fate after death. Science can't answer if there is a Heaven, Hell, or nothing after death.

For that religion, will always live on. As the world gets more advanced the church has less effect, but the belief of more to our life and death will always be there.

Quite frankly I could never accept that our origins and fate come to nothing. To me that says my life and everything else has no purpose. I try not to be ignorant, but I can't grasp atheism. Even listening to all the arguements, I just can't grasp any human being that accepts their was nothing before us and nothing after us. It stuns me.

Anywaysd.. my thoughts. I like these discussions. But, once again, asking for "proof" is just silly. You know darn well I can't go at this debate like that.

1) Well that's where you are wrong because science has an hypothesis for the origin of everything. And it is backed by good science as opposed to mere faith in sky fairies.

2) Science has satisfactorily answered whether or not there is a heaven, hell, or nothing after death. There is nothing but the fear of death prevents religious people from understanding that. In fact that fear is by far the biggest reason why people need religion. When one gets over that they are able to accept the natural world and see the beauty in the truth without the fear. Organized religion preys on people's fears and makes good tax free money doing it.

Religion will live on but not forever and not even by far as long as the earth survives as a planet. I like to think that religion can only last perhaps another 200 years at most before we become more capable of understanding more about ourselves and our place in the universe. (multiverse if you prefer) And of course as humans evolve over perhaps the next 2000 years we may evolve to be able to understand the universe better and once we do then religion will be unnequivocally proven to be nonsense because we will have the ability to do that. At the present time our brains are not far enough evolved to be able to understand. Science is close now and some very bright people are even now on the verge of being able to 'comprehend' the depths of the universe and it's origin.

But then of course for people like yourself, you can't even begin to contemplate some of these questions because you need to maintain your faith. If you think any deeper than that you can get into deep water with your religion. For others who are not tied down with religious hocus-pocus there is my link to Dawkins' site which I supplied in my first post.
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
2
18
Karrie- Your signature quotes Douglas Adams. Did you know that he was Richard Dawkins best and closest friend before Adams' death? Have you read the 'Salmon of Doubt'?
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
2
18
I don't think Atheism is a choice. I think there must be some people that don't have the mental capacity (sorta like monkeys) to undestand Religion: It's the History of Morality thiang, but to deny that there is such a thing as religion means something like a frontal lobotamy or bump on the head. Religion exists as a human artifact, like witchcraft, ESP, UFOs, and God. Whether religion is a hoax or not depends on who is talking. Obviously, some people are unaware of religion; like Atheists, while others; both Eastern and Western religious people, have a concept about an original, superior existence. Religious values are all about morality, health and socialization so it that's a hoax, I guess there's nothing left to debate but money.

Now whooooaaaa there Ariadne, that's insulting to say that a-theists don't have the mental capacity to understand religion. (sorta like monkeys indeed!) For your information of all the very brightest people on this planet, 85% are atheists. Einstein himself was an atheist and that's easily proven by his writing on the subject. And even if it were true that religious values are all about morality, health, and socialization it still wouldn't be true that it couldn't be called a hoax. You need to back that claim up wiht some evidence! Religion most certainly does not have a monopoly on good and most certainly does contain a lot of evil. If you were an American you would probably have no trouble understandiing and professing how you think many Muslims are evil. In fact my guess is that all religions except your very own are probably considered wrong by you. Which one is that Ariadne? Which small minority group of religious believers are you a part of? You do understand that you are part of a small minority of humanity even if you belong to the biggest of the lot? You do realize that at least 5 1/2 billion people now living on this planet are doomed don't you, according to your little minority group?
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
2
18
Thanks for picking up on my use of the word irreverent when I should have wrote reverent. Too much of a hurry I guess to answer a few of the comments.

And yes, death has a lot to do with religion and I was the one who brought it up. if not for the sky fairy believers fear of death and dying they would have no reason to practice their silliness. I wouldn't bank on coming back for another go around after you have lived out the present one though. That may be comforting but if that's what you believe then you are suffering with the same affliction as the believers. Best to let it go and understand that the molecules that make up your body will live on forever. It may also comfort you to kow that there is a very good possibility that you have breathed some of the very same air that Jesus breathed when he was living on this earth, considering that there is a good chance that he did in fact exist as a mortal human being. Personally, I would think Darwin and be more pleased.
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
2
18
Just a final note to say that I am not ignoring anyone. Those counter arguments I have not responded to didn't seem worthy of comment. Other interesting remarks such as darkbeaver's needed no rebuttal IMO.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
You may be quite wrong to assume that the first nations peole were irreverant toward nature. From all the evidence I've seen they are quite careless with nature. That is, from any history I've read of their behariour here on the west coast and of course from any present day evidence of their behaviour toward conservation efforts. They aren't the only poachers of game animals but they certainly show up in large numbers of those arrested. They aren't the only ones who overfish the salmon resources but you can always count on a lot of them being there taking more than they are legally entitled to. They are the onlly ones stringing nets accross certain rivers in my area when they are told to leave an open area for returning salmon to move upstream. And to go on some of the reserves on Vancouver Island it immediately becomes quite evident that they are not good stewards of their land. Somehow all the evidence I see tells me that they aren't exactly all irreverent toward nature! But perhaps I am missing something that you are aware of. Why not tell us all about it? Keeping in mind of course that I'm not singling them out as much as I am giving you some facts to show that you are not right all of the time at least. And yes, before you mention it, I am aware that there are many white people who are ignorant careless filthy pigs when it comes to being irreverent toward nature.
As I'm sure you're unaware, I would agree that the contemprary First Nations have long lost many of the standards by which theyu lived prior to European colonization. They have adopted the more greed driven ways of life, brought over by you know who.
That's not to say that there weren't practices in and amongst the First Nations, prior to, that were not excatly eco-friendly. But it is quite hard for one man to walk among the trees and not leave but footprints, let alone a society.
From experience they knew that they would have to move from location to location, at both different times of the year, as well as in general, as the ground they inhabitted would require time to heal.
That being the biggest and most appropriate use of foresight, know ones presence is detrimental and doing something about. That's reverance.

As for religion being a hoax, I have to agree. Hell I've only said it a couple hundred times to sanctus, hell I even made the poor Padre tell me to F**K myself. I have questioned the exsistance of God all my life. But in the end, I realized that it wasn't religion I was dismissing, it was the people who touted the lines and condemned all the non beleivers in their faith.

In the natural world, I have seen, heard and felt far to much to simply dismiss it. Even science has evidence that great bodies of rock hold measurable power and as DB once pointed, a stand of trees holds power, from its life forces. So is it that much of a stretch to accept that even water holds power. It can cut rock, move ground, wash clean entire areas, it brings life, and takes it if one is careless. So how exactly is the spiritual beliefs of the First Nations a hoax? Most of it can be explained by science, as you said yourself. Seeing as we did not have an understanding of natural sciences, but yet were able to assess and address the many scienticaly proven energies and forces around, while they were being dismissed by the Europeans, wouldn't that make the First Nations paople, smarter then the Non natives?

I think some people miss that science and the natural religions of old almost walk hand in hand.
Now whooooaaaa there Ariadne, that's insulting to say that a-theists don't have the mental capacity to understand religion. (sorta like monkeys indeed!)
lmao, did that insult you lie?

pots and kettles and pots and kettles and...

Just a final note to say that I am not ignoring anyone. Those counter arguments I have not responded to didn't seem worthy of comment. Other interesting remarks such as darkbeaver's needed no rebuttal IMO.
Hmmm, sounds like a thin insult and a suck up to me.
 
Last edited:

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Said1- Good but it would be good to understand why you think that way. In other words, a life decision of that importance should not be arrived at lightly.

karrie- All religions are hoaxs. That is my starting postion and you are welcome to try to convince me and others that you know of some which are factual and based on something more substantial than mere faith in sky fairies.

Hoaxes? How so? Define a hoax? You fail to appreciate the ingrained embodiment of man's need to identify himself with a spiritual connection. It is common in every culture and every society. It is not a hoax, it is a means of defintion and, for many, life. Some may well consider vasrious elements in science to be a hoax. Some consider parts of government a hoax. Your definition is self-serving and self-centred, and does not take into account the pyschological well-being of the spiritually inclined. In an effort to champion Science, let us not forget that it too, like religion, seeks to define the world around us.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
As for religion being a hoax, I have to agree. Hell I've only said it a couple hundred times to sanctus, hell I even made the poor Padre tell me to F**K myself. I have questioned the exsistance of God all my life. But in the end, I realized that it wasn't religion I was dismissing, it was the people who touted the lines and condemned all the non beleivers in their faith..

I think many of us confuse the word "religion" with the organization which supplies the defintions of the religion. Speaking from the perspective of what I know best, consider that there are two factors: there is the Roman Catholic Church, an organization that its' membership believes God created and others believe man created. It is a visible, thriving organization with a well established corporate set of policies and departments. Then there is the Catholic religion, or faith, and this differs and operates within and outside the organization.

I think your issues have been with the organization and not necessarily the faith, if you see what I mean.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Thanks for picking up on my use of the word irreverent when I should have wrote reverent. Too much of a hurry I guess to answer a few of the comments.

And yes, death has a lot to do with religion and I was the one who brought it up. if not for the sky fairy believers fear of death and dying they would have no reason to practice their silliness. I wouldn't bank on coming back for another go around after you have lived out the present one though. That may be comforting but if that's what you believe then you are suffering with the same affliction as the believers. Best to let it go and understand that the molecules that make up your body will live on forever. It may also comfort you to kow that there is a very good possibility that you have breathed some of the very same air that Jesus breathed when he was living on this earth, considering that there is a good chance that he did in fact exist as a mortal human being. Personally, I would think Darwin and be more pleased.

You have claimed that Science has proved there is no afterlife and no Heaven. Supply the links to this astonishing find please.
 

temperance

Electoral Member
Sep 27, 2006
622
16
18
A church is an association of people who share a particular belief system. //http://forums.canadiancontent.net/
Religion is the adherence to codified beliefs and rituals that generally involve a faith in a spiritual nature and a study of inherited ancestral traditions, knowledge and wisdom related to understanding human life. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to faith as well as to the larger shared systems of belief.

A hoax is an attempt to trick an audience into believing that something false is real. There is often some material object (e.g., snake oil) involved which is actually a forgery; however, it is possible to perpetrate a hoax by making only true statements using unfamiliar wording or context (see DHMO). Unlike a fraud or con (which usually has an audience of one or a few), which are made for illicit financial or material gain, a hoax is often perpetrated as a practical joke, to cause embarrassment, or to provoke social change by making people aware of something. Many hoaxes are motivated by a desire to satirize or educate by exposing the credulity of the public and the media or the absurdity of the target. For instance, the hoaxes of James Randi poke fun at believers in the paranormal. The many hoaxes of Alan Abel and Joey Skaggs satirize people's willingness to believe the media. Political hoaxes are sometimes motivated by the desire to ridicule or besmirch opposing politicians or political institutions, often before elections

So I dont think the original idea of religion was a hoax ,the (my) idea is to bring people together for purposes ,to celebrate ,solve problems ,--

What SOME religion and different groups of people have done with that BASIC premise is hoax like --for sure But like everything theres good /bad and Grey area s

 
  • Like
Reactions: mapleleafgirl

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
A church is an association of people who share a particular belief system. //
Religion is the adherence to codified beliefs and rituals that generally involve a faith in a spiritual nature and a study of inherited ancestral traditions, knowledge and wisdom related to understanding human life. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to faith as well as to the larger shared systems of belief.

A hoax is an attempt to trick an audience into believing that something false is real. There is often some material object (e.g., snake oil) involved which is actually a forgery; however, it is possible to perpetrate a hoax by making only true statements using unfamiliar wording or context (see DHMO). Unlike a fraud or con (which usually has an audience of one or a few), which are made for illicit financial or material gain, a hoax is often perpetrated as a practical joke, to cause embarrassment, or to provoke social change by making people aware of something. Many hoaxes are motivated by a desire to satirize or educate by exposing the credulity of the public and the media or the absurdity of the target. For instance, the hoaxes of James Randi poke fun at believers in the paranormal. The many hoaxes of Alan Abel and Joey Skaggs satirize people's willingness to believe the media. Political hoaxes are sometimes motivated by the desire to ridicule or besmirch opposing politicians or political institutions, often before elections

So I dont think the original idea of religion was a hoax ,the (my) idea is to bring people together for purposes ,to celebrate ,solve problems ,--

What SOME religion and different groups of people have done with that BASIC premise is hoax like --for sure But like everything theres good /bad and Grey area s

That some people mis-use their religious beliefs for puposes which may be, and often are, contrary to that religions' doctrines, does not in and of itself negate the truth of the spiritual path.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CDNBear
Status
Not open for further replies.