Pandemic: Coming soon to a body near you.

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Re: RE: Pandemic: Coming soon to a body near you.

Haggis-
Can you really not tell the difference between literal and figurative?

you quite obviously don't know anyone who suffers from this or any other mental illness.

Good heavens, LadyC, there is no reason to make personal attacks about my intelligence ('can you really not tell the difference between literal and figurative') and assumptions about my first-hand knowledge of depression ('you quite obviously don't know anyone who suffers from this or any other mental illness')

 

[LadyC]

Please reread your reply to Omega and you'll see where I got my assumptions from. Or not.

And please don't see my post as a personal attack. If I ever decide to give you one of those, you'll know it.
Trust me.

 

[peapod]

Only people who have had mental illness in their family can truly understand what it is, just as those who have cancer. I have a brother that is maniac, without lithium his life would be unbearable. We thank god for lithium it gave my brother back his life and gave his family some peace of mind.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Re: RE: Pandemic: Coming soon to a body near you.

Please reread your reply to Omega and you'll see where I got my assumptions from. Or not.

And please don't see my post as a personal attack. If I ever decide to give you one of those, you'll know it.
Trust me.

I don't need to reread my post, I am quite aware of what I said. Would it somehow give me more credibility to know someone in this situation? I prefer not to bring personal examples into such discussions, for they are not useful. Everybody can find someone in their personal experience that can help support their statements. I could as well. I choose not to.

Yours *was* a personal attack. Your next comment suggests that 'I 'will know it' if you ever decide to *really* go on attack... which I interpret as meaning you could really 'give me a piece of your mind' or some such thing, and I'm sure you could. However, I am emphatically not interested in that sort of sparring, having done it in the past and long since grown weary of it. I would simply not participate. Sorry about that.

I am not bothered by receiving personal attacks per se, since I find that personal attacks are simply proof that the person making such remarks is at a loss for any real argument, but I would much prefer to get back on-topic with this thread. Are you game?

 

[peapod]

Oh for heaven sakes is this kind of stuff ever going to stop. Smoke some dope.

 

[LadyC]

Ah... I assume your post wasn't a personal attack at me?


I'll use personal examples in my posts, Haggis, as will several others. We write what we know.

But tell me this... what do you prefer to use to back your opinions - research? Internet links? Well, guess where they come from? Originally, each and every example was someone's personal story.

Would it somehow give me more credibility to know someone in this situation?

No, but it doesn't give Omega less credibility either.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Oh for heaven sakes is this kind of stuff ever going to stop. Smoke some dope.

I'm curious. What kind of stuff, Peapod?

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

When you cite personal experience, the other person has no real way to respond. Anything they say will be answered with, "Well, YOU don't know, it isn't YOUR life." The person posting the personal experience will give their personal feelings on a subject they only partially understand... for example (and this will answer your earlier assumption) I do have a very close friend who has struggled for over fifty years with a mental illness. I can make all sorts of comments about the treatment he has received, etc., etc., but they can only be my observations, and he is only one 'subject' as it were... and my views would be, therefore, greatly subjective as a result, if I based them solely on my first-hand experience of knowing him over the years. Contrarily, in research, the subjective is set aside and hard facts are sought. There is a difference.

I can regale you with the story about a close family member who was given anti-depressants for depression. Turns out the drug was prescribed incorrectly - the problem she had been having prior to being prescribed an anti-depressant was a simple problem of drug interaction with her other prescriptions, this was immediately solved by changing one of the prescriptions (once the problem came to light).

In the meantime, though, she was on those anti-depressants for a couple of years. She had fallen and broken her hip due to dizziness caused by a higher-than-advised dose of the anti-depressant, which the doctor had recommended because the regular dose wasn't working. And sure it is true that the regular dose was not working... because the depression was caused by a drug interaction that had a very simple fix indeed.

You see, the answer was too quickly found at the first hint of depression, 'give her an anti-depressant!' when even a cursory investigation would have revealed that two of her drugs were working against each other. My obtaining and studying her records resulted in this discovery. The sheepish doctor took her off the anti-depressants, remedied the other prescriptions, and voila! She was her old self again. Well, except, of course, for the broken hip.

So there's your personal story. This was my mother. The broken hip changed her life, she never did live alone again.

Yet this story in my life does not mean, for me, that anti-depressants are never good 'because that happened to my mother', no. It was one incident alone, and therefore I would not base an opinion based on it alone, and that *is* the problem with such examples being used. It is far too easy to do just that.

 

[Cosmo]

Well, there certainly are lots of them, and far too many people who do not really need these drugs are taking them because it is easier than addressing the underlying problems that cause the disfunction in the first place, ie the abused wife who could better cure her depression by leaving her husband, the husband who is no longer in love with his wife so he takes a drug to maintain the illusion of love, the headstrong child who is 'toned down' to acceptable docile levels to appease frustrated teachers and parents.

No, my concern remains that we are fast becoming a society controlled by the drugs we take.

Haggis ... your oversimplifications are offensive! While I agree underlying issues, both social and medical, must be addressed, I have to point out that many of the drugs used today help people live fulfilling and productive lives they would otherwise not have.

It is exactly this kind of rhetoric that has caused people I know to go off much-needed anti-depressants, to stop medications required to ward of psychiatric disorders and to impair their own progress toward health. It upsets me. I have, literally, seen people die because of this kind of thinking.

There is no substitute for addressing the underlying issues but if you have never been an abused spouse, a hyperactive child, a schizophrenic, clinically depressed or chronically in pain, I don't think you have a right to claim your high moral ground.

My partner has MS. If she could get off the medications by addressing the underlying issue, you can bet your behind she would. To judge her for taking the medicine does get my back up.

 

[Diamond Sun]

I think people may be jumping to conclusions. I don't think Haggis is saying, although please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think she is saying that people most definitely should never go and use prescribed medications. What I get from her posts is that "her" view is that many people take them, and doctor's prescribe them, as the easy way out without looking at other issues.

I'm certain she's not suggesting that everyone who is taking medication should immediately cease, desist, and seek the underlying issues.

I, for one, agree with Haggis that too often the drugs get prescribed because it seems like an easy solution. People seem to feel that every problem's solution comes in a little pill, or a bottle.

There are personal experiences mentioned here of people close to them being helped by medication, I have a differing story. My aunt, diagnosed schitzophrenic, was found in a ditch last Christmas Eve because she wandered out of her house, and passed out, and nearly froze to death. She was on too many medications (at far too high dosages) that were all working against each other and not helping her.

She found a doctor who took the time to find out how those medications were interacting with her and with each other. Took her off most of them, lowered the dosages, and now she actually is living a life. I would never suggest she go off the medication completely, but she, and my family, were all too willing to accept the doctor's word that all these medications were good for her.

We're all here to share our stories, our interests, and our opinions. We have to remember that the written word doesn't allow for nuances, body language, and voice inflection. Hopefully, we can continue to share these opinions without taking personal offense at a conflicting opinion.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Haggis ... your oversimplifications are offensive!

Offensive? Because I have my personal views and live according to those views?

I have to point out that many of the drugs used today help people live fulfilling and productive lives they would otherwise not have.

Of course.

It is exactly this kind of rhetoric that has caused people I know to go off much-needed anti-depressants, to stop medications required to ward of psychiatric disorders and to impair their own progress toward health. It upsets me. I have, literally, seen people die because of this kind of thinking.

If anybody dies (other than possibly myself) because of my thinking on this subject, I would sure like to know why. They are my views. Other than speaking of my views on this forum (unless you are saying, of course, that I have no right to do so) I keep my views to myself and close friends/family. I never give my views to anybody who is on medication or considering it, I keep a long way away from the subject, and for the very reason you suggest.

I don't think you have a right to claim your high moral ground.

I am not claiming a high moral ground, Cosmo. I posted my opinion, little realizing the storm it would create.

My partner has MS. If she could get off the medications by addressing the underlying issue, you can bet your behind she would. To judge her for taking the medicine does get my back up.

Good grief, how on earth do you come up with the idea that I would 'judge' your partner for taking medication for MS? I have a cousin with advanced MS. I don't want her to be off her meds either. There are endlessly valid reasons for medication, I would never suggest otherwise... what I DO suggest is, there are also endlessly invalid reasons for medication. When I say we are a society too dependent on drugs, I certainly do not mean any and all drugs.

There exists a serious problem in our society of over-prescribing drugs, often for the wrong reasons and to the wrong people. This is a serious problem, one considered to be so by the CMA, AMA, and sundry others. I agree with them. If we don't accept that such things can and are be a problem, there is no hope of a fix.

 

[LadyC]

Haggis...

I'll continue to use personal experiences and observations as examples. If you dont wish to do the same, so be it.

Sometimes people take conflicting meds because they see more than one doctor and fail to notify each as to what meds they're on. (my doctor always asks)

We need to take a certain responsibility for our own health.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Re: RE: Pandemic: Coming soon to a body near you.

Haggis...

I'll continue to use personal experiences and observations as examples. If you dont wish to do the same, so be it.

Sometimes people take conflicting meds because they see more than one doctor and fail to notify each as to what meds they're on. (my doctor always asks)

We need to take a certain responsibility for our own health.

Well, I believe I have offered a very personal experience, that of my mother. She is dead. When she was living, she was of an older generation that believed without question what a doctor prescribed. It was not a matter of not taking responsibility, for the vast majority of people did take the word of their doctor without question in earlier years.

She did not take conflicting meds because she saw more than one doctor, she took conflicting meds because the one doctor she saw did not refer to his records and see what he had previously prescribed and was still prescribing. I saw the records.

 

[peapod]

Dexter I have that book why things bite back by Edward Tenner. That is an excellent book, written so that anyone can understand it. And has he remarked he wrote the book for nonspecialists, which I am I throughly enjoyed it. Is it really out of print, I will have to keep it now.

 

[Omega]

LadyC and Haggis:

I appreciate your support, Lady. Thank you.

While I think we all have the right to voice our own opinions, I feel that Haggis is looking at this subject from quite a narrow point of view.

I am likely the oldest poster on this forum, and although I don't think I am especially wise, it does give me a wide range of experience time-wise from which to see things.

The world most certainly has changed and grown smaller, and drastically, in my lifetime. People from all over the world now come here to visit or as immigrants, bringing with them viruses we've never before been exposed to. It is important for us to protect ourselves however we can from these new (to us) viruses.

The WHO looks at which viruses made the most people ill over the past year and base the present year's flu shot on those facts, so that it does change from year to year to protect us the best it can. I too don't think it's necessary for young, healthy people to get a flu shot, but seniors and the very young should be protected because they don't have the ability to fight it off as effectively. When I go to get my flu shot at the Senior's Centre or wherever clinics are being held, the lineups are very long. There are also police officers and firemen there for their shots because they deal with all sorts of people in the line of duty.

As for the depression thing, the fact is that a person in a deep depression not only doesn't know how to deal with it, they simply are so debilitated they don't have the will for it. All they can think about is how awful they feel. These people do need all the help they can get.

Psychiatric help doesn't always work, at least at first. A depressed person needs medication to come out of it a bit before they can even think about going for help to solve whatever is causing their depression.

HAGGIS, you wrote:

"Firstly, the stresses today are no worse than the stresses of any other era. Secondly, the over-use of drugs to handle stress is causing considerable and additional stress and problems to individuals and to the social/medical system."

Wrong...the stresses of today are certainly much worse than the stresses of any other era. I could give you many examples, but I won't here. I don't know what age group you are in, maybe you don't have the longer term range to view things than older people do.

I don't know of any "over-use of drugs to handle stress", but it is entirely possible that this is the case. Personally, I don't care if giving antidepressants can cause "problems to ...the social/medical system" if by taking them someone is able to reach a point of just being able to cope and resume their normal life. That is when they can seek help, or not, from a professional.

Haggis, I don't think you have any idea how debilitating a depression can be. I know many people who have been through this and I must say I certainly wouldn't want to be one of them.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

The world most certainly has changed and grown smaller, and drastically, in my lifetime. People from all over the world now come here to visit or as immigrants, bringing with them viruses we've never before been exposed to. It is important for us to protect ourselves however we can from these new (to us) viruses.

Regardless of the size of the world - figuratively or literally - and the influx of many exotic viruses, the 'flu virus that is prevented with the annual 'flu vaccine is the same basic ne'er-do-well that has plagued us all along.

the stresses of today are certainly much worse than the stresses of any other era. I could give you many examples, but I won't here. I don't know what age group you are in, maybe you don't have the longer term range to view things than older people do.

I am 52. Been kicking around for awhile, am dilapidated, am old, am past shelf life due-date.

Back to your point, this interesting side of things deserves its own thread, but briefly, I will say that there is some irony in our discontent in an era of escalating living standards. Almost all aspects of life have greatly improved in the past century yet today, people feel less happy than in previous generations, and depression and stress are more prevalent than ever. We have lost our sense of optimism, and live in a society of complaints and endless crisis. Why? Perhaps in part, the doom-and-gloom messages with which we are bombarded by the media? No easy answers on an fascinating subject.

Haggis, I don't think you have any idea how debilitating a depression can be. I know many people who have been through this and I must say I certainly wouldn't want to be one of them.

I think it is a mistake, as I have stated before, to make assumptions about my personal knowledge of depression.

As for antidepressant medication, I have not said, nor do I say, that they have no value and that nobody should be taking them. When depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, chemotherapy is the answer. However, in far too many cases, underlying unresolved issues are the culprit and the quick-fix of antidepressants might make matters worse.

It might give you pause to know that the US Surgeon General has declared that a whopping 55% of Americans need to be treated, with antidepressants, for mental illness. Antidepressants are one of the two most prescribed drugs in the US, along with the statins. Drug companies, powerful in Washington, make huge profits on antidepressants... is there a connection, then, between surging profits and the rather broad definition of who qualifies for such drugs?

From an economic point of view for the government, it is certainly more cost-effective to use drug therapy for a quick-fix than to pay for long-term psychiatric therapy sessions, but is it always the wisest solution for the patient to be on these drugs simply to save the government money and to help line the pockets of the drug companies?

 

[Diamond Sun]

As for the depression thing, the fact is that a person in a deep depression not only doesn't know how to deal with it, they simply are so debilitated they don't have the will for it. All they can think about is how awful they feel. These people do need all the help they can get.

Absolutely. There is no doubt that people with deep depression that can be helped by medication should get it. The issue is the people that don't NEED the medication being prescribed it anyway.

Haggis, I don't think you have any idea how debilitating a depression can be. I know many people who have been through this and I must say I certainly wouldn't want to be one of them.

I think we all probably know someone with some kind of disorder, whether it be mental, physical, chemical, but I still maintain that medication is not always the solution, and that we as a general population are all too eager to just accept that a pill is going to solve our problems.

 

[Cosmo]

Offensive? Because I have my personal views and live according to those views?

Nah .... because I have been spending too much time over in a right-wing conservative forum where, for the first time since I have discovered internet, I am posing as someone else (a religious, hetro type). Listening to all the in-bred shitkickers with bad dental work and a hankering for their first cousins has made me testy.

I apologize for leaping on you. I do feel very strongly about the issue, though. I have watched so many people who need medication refuse to take it because they somehow feel taking meds is a bad thing. I have seen people die from this (Peapod ... remember Dan in Cranbrook who went off his schizo meds and drowned in the creek as a result?).

My medicine locker looks like an expolosion at a pharmaceutical company picnic. I have fibro and have tried damn near everything known to man to get some relief. It's also taken me a decade to come to some kind of peace about being on Prozac. You want to see someone wired for sound, let me miss a couple days then engage me in a topic like this! Get the butterfly nets!!!

Yes, doctors do over prescribe. Our medical system can no longer support the number of people needing medical attention and the docs do use drugs as a quick fix. I think its become more like triage than doctoring. I am fortunate to have a doc that does not do that ... but yesterday I spent 2.5 hours waiting to see him because he refuses to rush his patients and just whip out the old Rx book. Not everyone is well enough or willing to wait that long to see a doctor.

If anybody dies (other than possibly myself) because of my thinking on this subject, I would sure like to know why. They are my views. Other than speaking of my views on this forum (unless you are saying, of course, that I have no right to do so) I keep my views to myself and close friends/family. I never give my views to anybody who is on medication or considering it, I keep a long way away from the subject, and for the very reason you suggest.

I am relieved to hear that. I tend to be fairly consistent both here and in my "real" life ... the opinions I express here would not come as any surprise to anyone who knows me. I have the luxury of doing that because I do not have to think about children or a partner that would be hurt by my opinions. I realize not everyone has the same luxury and I agree that being able to express whatever we think here is essential.

I do believe in better living through chemistry! If it works, take it. I also believe in getting to the root of whatever problems exist but it's not always that simple. Your remark about a woman simply leaving an abusive spouse upset me. Back in the olden days I lived with an abusive man. His beatings put me in the hospital. I was so depressed I attempted suicide. The method I used to find my way out of that abyss was medication ... I got onto an antidepressant so that I could think coherently and followed it up with counselling. Just "leaving" was not an option and if one has not been there, there's just no understanding it. It looks so insane from the outside and it's so easy to say the abused should just leave but it doesn't work that way. I have had this same conversation with many women who have never been in the position and you have just reaped the result of the frustrating debates I've held in the past.

Bottom line? I think people need to do whatever they need to do to have a productive, happy life. I understand your concern about over medicating, but I think it's primarily a symptom of an overburdened health care system.

Again, apologies for jumping down your throat. I think you and I are bound to find ourselves in debates for as long as we are both here and that is ok. A good debate is always welcome. I am usually much more mannerly about it, tho

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Cosmo, thank you. You know, it is truly uncanny that you are doing what I did not so long ago (posting as someone else on an ultra-conservative forum). Man, it made me crazy-cranky! I was actually tense from going there and finally had to walk away from it. I was in a state of permanent pissed-offedness.

I'm outspoken in 'real' life as well (too much so, probably) but as I say, I do try to be careful with comments around anybody I know who might be adversely influenced by what is, after all, my unprofessional opinion. I have nobody in my immediate family dealing with a mental illness, but as I say, I have a near and dear friend who has been dealing with it for years. He, however, is in the medical profession himself and would not be not overly influenced (not that I try, nor would I try) by my views on the subject.

I've seen both sides of the drug issue, people refusing to take a drug that could have helped them... and people taking a drug that ended up harming them.

I'd like to say, regardless of any disagreements we have had, and most assuredly will have , I'm sure, I very much enjoy your posts. They are thoughtful, well-reasoned and well-written, and thus a pleasure to read.

 

[Diamond Sun]

I'd like to say, regardless of any disagreements we have had, and most assuredly will have , I'm sure, I very much enjoy your posts. They are thoughtful, well-reasoned and well-written, and thus a pleasure to read.

I think this is what we all do the "forum" thing for, to be involved in, and in some cases simply read, well written thought out, civil disagreement.