On the economics of criminal justice.

[Machjo]

It seems to me that, while we must still ensure to the best of our ability that people remain not guilty until proven so, once they are found guilty, we need to treat them with economic efficiency.

To take an example in the case of murder, if a person is found guilty and the judge sentences him to death (assuming we had that in Canada), why waste so much money on complicated killing devices when he have military firing squads already.

If they get life in prison, then why not hard labour. And if it's concluded that special circumstances led to the murder, and that he's highly unlikely to repeat the murder, then why not simply a life of exile from the city in which it occurred. It would save money in having to keep him in prison. Of course this could be combined with eligibility for a civil case against him too so as to make him pay compensation.

If a person commits theft, connect the theft to its cost. So make him do hard labour until we conclude that the costs of the theft, trial, etc. have been repaid and then he's released. For a third offense, brand his forehead, a much more efficient means of protecting society from him by identifying him.

I'm sure there could be other ways of making our justice system more economical.

 

[VanIsle]

It seems to me that, while we must still ensure to the best of our ability that people remain not guilty until proven so, once they are found guilty, we need to treat them with economic efficiency.

To take an example in the case of murder, if a person is found guilty and the judge sentences him to death (assuming we had that in Canada), why waste so much money on complicated killing devices when he have military firing squads already.
It would be done via lethel injection which probably costs about the same as the firing squad and while dead is dead and murder is murder - it seems to be a little more humane than a firing squad.

If they get life in prison, then why not hard labour. And if it's concluded that special circumstances led to the murder, and that he's highly unlikely to repeat the murder, then why not simply a life of exile from the city in which it occurred. It would save money in having to keep him in prison. Of course this could be combined with eligibility for a civil case against him too so as to make him pay compensation.
Special circumstances led to the murder. You mean like Robert Latimer? I know many people here believe he is one person that was justified in killing his daughter and that he would never do it again. I think anyone who has the ability to kill their own flesh and blood has every possibility of being a repeat offender. People believe he took her out of her misery. Even memers of the family didn't buy that. Everyone has days where constant care of such an individual can be trying. That is what respite is for. So how would anyone know that a murderer is unlikely to repeat? To my way of thinking, murder in a self defence role is the only person unlikely to be a repeat offender and they would not be facing the same charges anyway.

If a person commits theft, connect the theft to its cost. So make him do hard labour until we conclude that the costs of the theft, trial, etc. have been repaid and then he's released. For a third offense, brand his forehead, a much more efficient means of protecting society from him by identifying him.
I shudder to think how many Canadian could be walking around with a brand on their forehead!

I'm sure there could be other ways of making our justice system more economical.

Simply making jail time extremely uncomfortable is the only means.

 

[Bar Sinister]

What do you consider hard labour? And would hard labour serve any really useful purpose? Hard labour the way it has been used in the USA has been found to take away jobs from honest citizens who would normally do them. In some states contractors have been known to make large scale use of convict labour to avoid having to hire regular workers. The trick is to find a job convicts can do that no one would ordinarily hire regular workers to do.

 

[JLM]

Personally, I think for most cases there are better options than prison. The sentence can be made just as formidable as prison, but at a fraction of the cost. If a guy is a thief, forger, cheque kiter he could be released wearing a ball and chain and placard and be put to work on municipal projects for minimum wage (so he can support himself at a minimal level) and the placard would tell anyone interested in reading it what his transgressions were. Hard labour could include such things as loading dump trucks by hand (saving $100 an hour for a front end loader)

 

[talloola]

Simply making jail time extremely uncomfortable is the only means.

Oh my they couldn't do that, there would be so many complaints about not 'treating' them humanely, taking away
their human rights, so, their lives over the years have
become very comfortable, the only thing missing is their
freedom, maybe some of them don't even want that any more,
livin on the inside can be very comfortable.

It's livin on the outside that can be a great challenge
for many who never break the law, and try hard to make
a living, put food on the table, and nothing is guaranteed
as it is on the inside, many people suffer greatly all of
their lives, while being honest and hardworking, while
prisoners can depend on 3 squares a day, clean clothes,
a warm bed and a lawyer for no cost.

 

[JLM]

Oh my they couldn't do that, there would be so many complaints about not 'treating' them humanely, taking away
their human rights, so, their lives over the years have
become very comfortable, the only thing missing is their
freedom, maybe some of them don't even want that any more,
livin on the inside can be very comfortable.

It's livin on the outside that can be a great challenge
for many who never break the law, and try hard to make
a living, put food on the table, and nothing is guaranteed
as it is on the inside, many people suffer greatly all of
their lives, while being honest and hardworking, while
prisoners can depend on 3 squares a day, clean clothes,
a warm bed and a lawyer for no cost.

YOu got that right Talloola- one of the problems is there are criminals and then there are CRIMINALS and our system seems to treat them somewhat the same. With some crimes restitution is possible and with some it isn't and with some criminals rehabilitation is possible and some it isn't. For some I think the only answer is to "warehouse" them at minimum expense, no comforts no amenities, just time to sit in a cold dark cell and think about what they've done. But for the vast majority, I think the faster restitution can be made and rehabillitation can be done the better. On a separate issue Talloola, I see Calgary beat Washington- had to have been a massive amount of cheating going on there...................:lol::lol::lol:

 

[CDNBear]

Anyone who thinks prison is comfortable needs to have a weekend vacation in one.

 

[Machjo]

YOu got that right Talloola- one of the problems is there are criminals and then there are CRIMINALS and our system seems to treat them somewhat the same. With some crimes restitution is possible and with some it isn't and with some criminals rehabilitation is possible and some it isn't. For some I think the only answer is to "warehouse" them at minimum expense, no comforts no amenities, just time to sit in a cold dark cell and think about what they've done. But for the vast majority, I think the faster restitution can be made and rehabillitation can be done the better. On a separate issue Talloola, I see Calgary beat Washington- had to have been a massive amount of cheating going on there...................:lol::lol::lol:

Why have them sit there and think about what they've done? We have to pay for their food, clothing, bedding, etc. Have them work, or at least have them learn a trade or profession for when they get out. But no time wasting, please!

 

[Machjo]

Anyone who thinks prison is comfortable needs to have a weekend vacation in one.

Ironically enough, I think we'd be doing them a favour, even a humane one, by putting them to work.

I can imagine if I were in prison. I'd be bored out of my skull with nothing to do. I'd be begging to have something to do after a few days. Work would make time pass more quickly.

Also, while in prison, especially if I'm going to eventually get out and have to join the workforce, I'd rather either be learning a trade or profession or to be working. Either way, I'd want to be kept busy somehow. Of what use is it to the inmate or society to have him waste his time? Time is money after all,and to have him sit there doing nothing is not only hurting him, but us to.

 

[Machjo]

What do you consider hard labour? And would hard labour serve any really useful purpose? Hard labour the way it has been used in the USA has been found to take away jobs from honest citizens who would normally do them. In some states contractors have been known to make large scale use of convict labour to avoid having to hire regular workers. The trick is to find a job convicts can do that no one would ordinarily hire regular workers to do.

I'm not thinking of hard labour in terms of make-work jobs. If that's the case, give the inmates a break. No point making them work for nothing. However, when there tasks that they could do that would save the taxpayer money, put them to work doing those tasks.

As for inmates taking work away from others, that's ridiculous. We should never, ever think of work as an end in itself. It is always, always a means to an end. As such, when a person resents another for having taken his job, that's not entirely true. What he's really resenting is that the other person took away his means to producing wealth for himself.

Looking at it that way, an idle inmate is a wasted resource. If you have him work, and that results in someone else losing his job, then the wealth produced by the inmate could go towards retraining that unemployed person so as to upgrade his skills so as to give him access to a potentially higher-paying job (i.e. a even more efficient means of producing or accumulating wealth).By the way, this could benefit the inmate too on a number of fronts:

1. the money produced by the inmates could save the government money on prison maintenance which could then be diverted towards education in some job or profession for the inmate, of higher quality than is provided now since the school would have more funding. This extra education would also increase the inmate's chances of getting a better job once out of prison, and so reduce his chances of re-offending.

2. The work would provide the inmate with valuable work experience.

3. The work could give the inmate a sense of pride and accomplishment, a sense that he has contributed to society. Once he gets a taste of that, he's likely to want to continue down that path once out of prison. If all he'd done in prison was sit around, we've just imposed a really bad habit on him. That helps neither him nor us.

But to think that we should waste a human resource capable of contributing to the economy because it could take work away from another is to forget the purpose of work. Work is never, ever an end in itself, but a means to the production of wealth or the provision of a service to society. Work as an end in itself is an insult to the worker, is a waste of a human resource, and is a burden on society.

 

[Liberalman]

The Conservative government should deport the muderers to countries that have the death penalty like they always do

 

[Machjo]

The Conservative government should deport the muderers to countries that have the death penalty like they always do

That could prove a little tricky when a Canadian commits the crime against another Canadian in Canada.

 

[JLM]

That could prove a little tricky when a Canadian commits the crime against another Canadian in Canada.

Maybe Russia would be kind enough to rent us a compound (surrounded by 240,000 volt electric fence) in the middle of Siberia. :lol:

 

[Machjo]

Maybe Russia would be kind enough to rent us a compound (surrounded by 240,000 volt electric fence) in the middle of Siberia. :lol:

Don't we have enough mines of our own where they could work?

 

[JLM]

Don't we have enough mines of our own where they could work?

Nah, the Unions would just get involved and before you know they'd be earning more than everyone else in the country and they'd probably get a three day pass for every two days worked, in Siberia we wouldn't have to worry about. We could sent over $1 days per prisoner and let the Russians decide what that would finance for them.

 

[Machjo]

Nah, the Unions would just get involved and before you know they'd be earning more than everyone else in the country and they'd probably get a three day pass for every two days worked, in Siberia we wouldn't have to worry about. We could sent over $1 days per prisoner and let the Russians decide what that would finance for them.

Talk about not knowing their own best interests. if the inmates can't work, the workers pay more tax to support the inmates.

How about this. Anyone who tries to prevent another from working pays an extra support tax for those who don't. I'm sure they'd step of the way then.

I'm not talking about abusing the inmates, but just getting them to earn their keep. Reasonable?