If the population density is so small in northern ONtario. It would probably be easier/cheaper to make it a Territory rather than a province.
Northern Ontario Secession Movement
- Thread starter northernontariomovement
- Start date
Yeah, make it a territory as well as Northern Manitoba and Northern and Central Quebec, because they were only granted to those provinces by the Hudson's Bay agreement and other agreements.
Re: RE: Northern Ontario Secession Movement
It's only good if you want to live without modern convieniences...since you're only farming enough for your family to eat, there will be no one to pay for electricity, heat, and other beneficial amenities. Actually some people would like to live like that, but not many, especially those with kids.
MMMike said:
It's only good if you want to live without modern convieniences...since you're only farming enough for your family to eat, there will be no one to pay for electricity, heat, and other beneficial amenities. Actually some people would like to live like that, but not many, especially those with kids.
RE: Northern Ontario Sece
interesting.
i have heard of northwestern ontario merging with manitoba but not full out northern ontario separation. I have also heard of Toronto separation (they are sick of supporting the leeches that make up the rest of southern ontario).
There is just no winning in today's mentality of "what's mine is mine".
If separation were seriously brought forward, we could expect (possibly) to see similar movements occur in all the non-maritime provinces. Perhaps Canada would become more stable if there were more smaller provinces with governments that more directly reflected their population's needs. How small is necessary to accomplish such a feat though when the predominant attitude is one of "me, me, me".
interesting.
i have heard of northwestern ontario merging with manitoba but not full out northern ontario separation. I have also heard of Toronto separation (they are sick of supporting the leeches that make up the rest of southern ontario).
There is just no winning in today's mentality of "what's mine is mine".
If separation were seriously brought forward, we could expect (possibly) to see similar movements occur in all the non-maritime provinces. Perhaps Canada would become more stable if there were more smaller provinces with governments that more directly reflected their population's needs. How small is necessary to accomplish such a feat though when the predominant attitude is one of "me, me, me".
northernontariomovement said:
About the same as everyone feels about Newfoundland trying to pretend to be a province. Oh wait, it already does pretend to be a province. About the same way but larger; like the size of France with less than a million people in it trying to pretend to be something that can sustain itself with no law enforcement, just for starters.
If South Ontario doesn't pay for the Ontario Provincial Police (OPPS; like COPS but missing the C) it has no law enforcement unless the confederates can buy them out and turn them into RCMP. And the only way they could do that is by billing South Ontario for it; then instead of the "Ontario" feds sending more of our revenues per capita to the norths, the confederates would have to do it and it would be right out in the open with "equalization" welfare handouts, so they can go to it.
For those who want to see the confederates, the insults to the words (political) "systems" and "structures" in this mess, gone sooner than later the lines are drawn, war is in the air: Urban against rural, R&D/innovation/services-based (knowledge) economies holding every card in the deck against resource-based economies exporting raw/semi-processed commodities (and of course the value-added job/expanded markets/economies/revenue bases that go along with that mentality).
Hank C said:
From the 1996 and 2001 Censuses:
Population and percentage of population by jurisdiction/regions, 1996 and 2001 Censuses
Code:
________________________________________________________________________
Population
JURISDICTION 1996 Pop %Pop 2001 Pop %Pop Growth
________________________________________________________________________
Ontario 10,753,573 37.28 11,410,046 38.02 656,473
Québec 7,138,795 24.75 7,237,479 24.12 98,684
British Columbia 3,724,500 12.91 3,907,738 13.02 183,238
Alberta 2,696,826 9.35 2,974,807 9.91 277,981
Manitoba 1,113,898 3.86 1,119,583 3.73 5,685
Saskatchewan 990,237 3.43 978,933 3.26 -11,304
Nova Scotia 909,282 3.15 908,007 3.03 -1,275
New Brunswick 738,133 2.56 729,498 2.43 -8,635
Newfoundland & Labrador 551,792 1.91 512,930 1.71 -38,862
Prince Edward Island 134,557 0.47 135,294 0.45 737
Northwest Territories 39,672 0.14 37,360 0.12 -2,312
Yukon Territory 30,766 0.11 28,674 0.10 -2,092
Nunavut Territory 24,730 0.09 26,745 0.09 2,015
________________________________________________________________________
TOTAL 28,846,761 100.00 30,007,094 100.00 1,160,333
________________________________________________________________________
Population
SUMMARY 1996 Pop %Pop 2001 Pop %Pop Growth
________________________________________________________________________
(ON+QC) Total 17,892,368 62.03 18,647,525 62.14 755,157
(ON+QC+BC) Total 21,616,868 74.94 22,555,263 75.17 938,395
Rest - (ON+QC) Total 10,954,393 37.97 11,359,569 37.86 405,176
Rest - (ON+QC+BC) Total 7,229,893 25.06 7,451,831 24.83 221,938
Prairie (AB+SK+MB) Total 4,800,961 16.64 5,073,323 16.91 272,362
(SK+MB) Total ^ to AB 2,104,135 7.29 2,098,516 6.99 -5,619
Atlantic Canadas Total 2,333,764 8.09 2,285,729 7.62 -48,035
Territories Total 92,779 0.31 95,168 0.33 -2,389
________________________________________________________________________Sources: Statistics Canada (all) - many pages: Tables - Canada Population and Dwelling Counts (by just about any way you wish to view them) Home Page is probably the best overall ... typical StatsCan't mess. But useful once you get past their insane interfaces without going insane.
A Profile of the Canadian Population: Where We Live (Index)
Growth concentrated in four large urban areas
Windsor-Québec City Corridor, 2001
Ontario Section
10,706,513 93% of Ontario's population
Québec Section
6,327,354 87% of Quebec's population
Total Population
17,033,867 57% of Canada's population
Source: Statistics Canada 2001 Census
11,410,046 - 10,706,513 (and dropping in the north Ontarios and moreso in the north Quebecs; other than around the Aboriginal peoples) = 703,533 in the north Ontarios in 2001.
The 656,473 in population growth in "Ontario" (the Ontarios) from the 1996 Census to the 2001 Census is mostly immigration and mostly to the Toronto area, not to the farms and mines and forests and wilderness and tundra of the north Ontarios -- which should not be part of the south and vice versa.
We have absolutely nothing in common on any economic<->socio-economic level between north and south Ontario and economics<->socio-economics (demographics like occupation, average household income for starters) tend to lead directly to political priorities; legislation and namely taxation and spending priorities legislation (budgets and tax laws).
They have truly legitimate gripes to try to open constitutional murmurs (but can get in line), the opening of Pandora's box for Meech Lake round II in the north Ontarios and probably on Mars too. And it's where they can all move to, already are, if they expect anyone on this planet to take them seriously.
Structural reform, systemic reform, scrapping the whole mess of the Canadas and doing a rewrite; fine. But the north Ontarios aren't going to cause it nor is anything but the South Ontarios and southwest Quebecs. Nothing else is capable of anything but the usual bitching and moaning that no one pays any attention to, because there is no reason to. Nothing else even has land claims that aren't granted by the confederates. It's a ridiculous joke, but it's not funny.
Everything needs the confederates out of their faces and the "Ontario" feds, trying to pretend that there's some singularity here, are completely out of their minds; let alone the confederate feds.
Re: RE: Northern Ontario Secession Movement
What's the point in having a beautiful environment if no one can afford to stay and enjoy it as we do now? We now it's gorgeous where we are and we certainly don't take it for granted. But hardly anyone can afford to stay here. And there is no help in regards to such.
quinton said:
What's the point in having a beautiful environment if no one can afford to stay and enjoy it as we do now? We now it's gorgeous where we are and we certainly don't take it for granted. But hardly anyone can afford to stay here. And there is no help in regards to such.
northernontariomovement said:
So go to it. What's stopping you/them? Get the private investment lined up to pay more and lose profits for no apparent reason and figure out what the industrial era is and when it started and ended.
There are no markets in the north and all the U.S. and Windsor-Quebec City corridor need are rail lines to get the raw materials to the real markets and industrial bases in the south, with access to our own markets and the other richest markets in the U.S. within a day's trucking from Toronto (no border crossings) let alone the rest where the border crossings are.
And as someone already stated, aside from the impossibilities of getting manufacturing in the middle of nowhere (why not build a Trump Tower or Ritz in the middle of hundreds of miles of wilderness?), why not focus on the lack of pollution in the very near north, the real assets it has for, oh, tourism and such as opposed to laying waste to the norths for no reason whatsoever?
And if anyone thinks otherwise then get your business plans together and see how many private investors think that it's a good idea to pay more/lose profits in added insurance and distribution costs to ship from Nowheres, instead of using the existing (and expanding) infrastructure in the souths that already exist?
Go to it, it's not up to any government it's up to "y'all" to put your entrepeneurs hats on and git yer business plans together to get financing from private investors, financial analysts/location experts who look at nothing but economic regions and globally and we have more than enough to deal with in the south (including the economic regions of the U.S. that matter) around China and India alone.
Go to it and best of luck. Tourism is what you should be focused on as a supplement to your resource-based economies and that's also up to you: get the business plans together, demonstrate your markets, attract the human capital and private investment needed to promote things that people in other countries can only dream of, and do dream of -- heading to "Canada" where there is still real wilderness.
Study them to learn how to market to them and if it works out, it may be worth it to build some real highways up to the wilderness, some real airports, but that kinda takes away from the whole experience of being flown in by bush pilots, to the middle of nowhere, where fishing, hunting, DO NOT GET LOST or you will never be found, away from the main strenths of the north.
But it sucks that you're stuck with the "Ontario" feds. It sucks even more for the south. There is no reason at all for northwest Ontario, with its own hydro-electric power to be paying the same rates per KW/h as those in Toronto have to pay.
And there is no problem backing the north up on that, when you're not even connected to our grids.
But send the complaints to the McGuinty Morons, not us. They screw us over far more than they screw the north over.
Anything to break up and isolate the corruption problem in the GTA of Ontario is good for Canada as a whole.
With cancers the best thing you can do is cut off the limbs and save what can be saved. GTA Ontario should split off and become its own Country, that way it can be the south america of the North that it is rushing to become sooner and without taking the whole country down the tubes with it..
With cancers the best thing you can do is cut off the limbs and save what can be saved. GTA Ontario should split off and become its own Country, that way it can be the south america of the North that it is rushing to become sooner and without taking the whole country down the tubes with it..
I agree with some who think that Ontario is too big geographically and population wise vis a vis the rest of Canada. Indeed I think a strong argument could be made that the Northern half of BC and Quebec could also be constituted as new provinces. it seems to me though that the problem in Ontario is more acute because the Northern realms have so little sway over policy in Toronto. With only 10 seats or so out of 108 in the Provincial Parliament it is easy to see how NOnt. issues could be easily disregarded or overlooked. Though, I am not in favouring of dismembering any province I think the question that needs to be asked is: Are large provinces unmanagable? or Do large provinces produce good governments for those who are not in the metropoles?
Canada's provinces are to large and unbalanced. The people are not well represented because of this. Canada was fine untill 30 years ago but now the densest parts are ruining the sparser parts.
Ontario could be broken up into five distinct States. Eastern, Northern, GTA, Central, Southern and each could have their distinct cultures remain intact. The other provinces could do similar as needed to add deversity and protect cultural differences.
We need to keep evolving and can't remaing as the Hudson Bay Company forever. People have to be governed by smaller more manegable size governments. Big Government is BAD GOVERNMENT. Democracy is lost to Beuracratism.
Ontario could be broken up into five distinct States. Eastern, Northern, GTA, Central, Southern and each could have their distinct cultures remain intact. The other provinces could do similar as needed to add deversity and protect cultural differences.
We need to keep evolving and can't remaing as the Hudson Bay Company forever. People have to be governed by smaller more manegable size governments. Big Government is BAD GOVERNMENT. Democracy is lost to Beuracratism.
RE: Northern Ontario Sece
lotus, you answered your own question.
Large provinces have a great deal of difficulty representing every citizen equally due to density and issue variations.
However, the flipside is that large public projects would be harder to initiate with smaller provinces (smaller revenue streams) and the potential for more isolationist trends (area 1 thinks it should not put money into a project in another area even though it benefits area 1.) The way around this is to place more specific-to-inter-territory powers in Ottawa.
lotus, you answered your own question.
Large provinces have a great deal of difficulty representing every citizen equally due to density and issue variations.
However, the flipside is that large public projects would be harder to initiate with smaller provinces (smaller revenue streams) and the potential for more isolationist trends (area 1 thinks it should not put money into a project in another area even though it benefits area 1.) The way around this is to place more specific-to-inter-territory powers in Ottawa.
In Ontario, the richest Province in Canada we have Welfare States like the District of Muskoka who live off the handouts of the Province and Federal Government because they pilfer from the richer parts of the Province. If they where their own states they would have to work legitimately with they tax resources.
Because they grew acustomed to the handouts they do nothing but steal every penny they can.
It a shame for a region with some of the most expensive real estate in the provice to be run like a banana republic by public officials that enjoy screwing the public every way they can.
I am surprised that the provice does not send people in and take over their public administration. Their debts are so high they are borrowing money to pay interest on the money they have borowed which is why they can never get anything done with their own tax money.
If the Privince pays off their debts, they will steal it back in no time.
Because they grew acustomed to the handouts they do nothing but steal every penny they can.
It a shame for a region with some of the most expensive real estate in the provice to be run like a banana republic by public officials that enjoy screwing the public every way they can.
I am surprised that the provice does not send people in and take over their public administration. Their debts are so high they are borrowing money to pay interest on the money they have borowed which is why they can never get anything done with their own tax money.
If the Privince pays off their debts, they will steal it back in no time.
This is an old thread but just wanted to through in my two cents.
I use to be in favour fo keeping this country together but no more. I am from southern Ontario (an hour south of toronto) and would be more than happy to vote for seperation of ontario. No one part of Ontario is being served properly by either the provincial or federal government.
Two primary reasons .. although there are certainly more ...
1: Imigration: Canada needs imigration but everyone in the east is settling in southern ontario. Enough is enough. If Toronto wants to become bloated fine but down take the rest of southern ontario with you.
2: Taxation: The provincial gvt is maintaining institutions simply to keep their payrolls bloated. eg. PST: Why do we have a seperate retail tax division when an hst federal plan can do the same task at half the cost. We could drop 1 or 2 % off of PST just by getting rid of these redundant idiots in the ministry of finance. If Ontario breaks up maybe toronto can keep their stupid tax rules and let the rest of the new provinces or better yet ... countries create their own.
Someone needs to organize a referendum on a municipal level. Provincially it just wont work.. Each municipality needs to vote individually whether to suceed from Ontario and or Canada. Some will move some won't but at least the smart ones will. From then on it would be a matter of self determination. Some municipalities will join with otehr to form new provinces others will decide to become other countries.
Someone needs to set up a real site and start get this started.
I use to be in favour fo keeping this country together but no more. I am from southern Ontario (an hour south of toronto) and would be more than happy to vote for seperation of ontario. No one part of Ontario is being served properly by either the provincial or federal government.
Two primary reasons .. although there are certainly more ...
1: Imigration: Canada needs imigration but everyone in the east is settling in southern ontario. Enough is enough. If Toronto wants to become bloated fine but down take the rest of southern ontario with you.
2: Taxation: The provincial gvt is maintaining institutions simply to keep their payrolls bloated. eg. PST: Why do we have a seperate retail tax division when an hst federal plan can do the same task at half the cost. We could drop 1 or 2 % off of PST just by getting rid of these redundant idiots in the ministry of finance. If Ontario breaks up maybe toronto can keep their stupid tax rules and let the rest of the new provinces or better yet ... countries create their own.
Someone needs to organize a referendum on a municipal level. Provincially it just wont work.. Each municipality needs to vote individually whether to suceed from Ontario and or Canada. Some will move some won't but at least the smart ones will. From then on it would be a matter of self determination. Some municipalities will join with otehr to form new provinces others will decide to become other countries.
Someone needs to set up a real site and start get this started.
Northern Ontario should seperate.
It has NOTHING in common with southern ontario that it does not have in common with every other province. It makes less sense for it to be part of Ontario than it does for each Marintime province to be seperate.
Sure it may be bad business sense with our current model, but we are in essence drowing out their political concerns.
It has NOTHING in common with southern ontario that it does not have in common with every other province. It makes less sense for it to be part of Ontario than it does for each Marintime province to be seperate.
Sure it may be bad business sense with our current model, but we are in essence drowing out their political concerns.
I also realize this thread is quite old. However the bloat versus the famine that exists in Ontario has reached an intolerable level. Southern Ontario won't let the north go because the natural resources wealth is more than they can afford to let go. At the same token the transfer payments from Ottawa go mostly to the south, while the north suffers with crumbling infrastructure, unsafe drinking water everywhere, people forced to leave because of lack of investment in the north. Trust me if the north did secede from the south, the south would be screwed. The north would take back it's resource wealth and prosper. It would NOT be a welfare state. The First Nations are already making inroads in terms of business and investment in local solutions unique to the area. The south doesn't have clue one what the north needs to prosper. It certainly isn't the pitiful "chump change" the south determines is suitable welfare. Frankly you can take your tables scraps and shove them sideways. The North is ready to take it's own affairs and run with them. We are ready to be our own, on equal footing with the other provinces in confederation. If that scares you maybe you should get out of your parent's basement and out of armchair politics. Accept the possibility that the North can handle itself! My apologies for any offense to anyone but I for one am done with southern Ontario starving us to death so they can rape the land of it's resources.
What a joke, as soon as a few disgruntled people who are surprised to find
out they can't have their own way on all matters set out to find their own path
without understanding the road they are going to head down Ok I am amused
by such simple expectations
out they can't have their own way on all matters set out to find their own path
without understanding the road they are going to head down Ok I am amused
by such simple expectations