Muslim leaders call for summit to fight extremism

sanch

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2005
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I didn’t see the program. Still this has to be put in perspective. Multiculturalism in Canada is based on a policy that seems to have the same outcomes wherever it is implemented. One can begin with the British in India and one sees its remnants all over the British Empire as well as Europe, particularly France.

Multiculturalism in this guise is a patronage system. There is no intention of integrating the members or providing them with equal opportunity. Dissent, extremism and the like is controlled by empowering and legitimizing the leaders. Look at Britain and France. Why did all those radicals have such cushy lives on social assistance? In this kind of system one seldom hears from moderates.

Canada needs to come up with a different strategy for multiculturalism other than flooding urban ghettos with immigrants where they can fall under the influence of radicals. So yes Canada is to blame.

So considering the context and the fact that all of this is very recent one's expectations should be reasonable. They are referring to a future initiative not work they have done.

There does need to be sensitivity and so some training here would be very helpful. This is a potentially dangerous situation and it needs to be addressed. There are a lot of really stupid things Canada spends money on. This is not an area one should cut corners.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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bluealberta said:
Jay said:
sanch said:
There needs to be better ethnic representation in all walks of Canadian life.

That carries certain implications with it though. Being picked for a job becaue you are this or that is supposed to be illegal, I thought.

Not in the Canadian governmental system of bureacracy. I know. I work in this system. A lot of people are picked because of ethnic or language quotas.

Can you comment on this Sanch?
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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sanch said:
I didn’t see the program. Still this has to be put in perspective. Multiculturalism in Canada is based on a policy that seems to have the same outcomes wherever it is implemented. One can begin with the British in India and one sees its remnants all over the British Empire as well as Europe, particularly France.

Multiculturalism in this guise is a patronage system. There is no intention of integrating the members or providing them with equal opportunity. Dissent, extremism and the like is controlled by empowering and legitimizing the leaders. Look at Britain and France. Why did all those radicals have such cushy lives on social assistance? In this kind of system one seldom hears from moderates.

Canada needs to come up with a different strategy for multiculturalism other than flooding urban ghettos with immigrants where they can fall under the influence of radicals. So yes Canada is to blame.

So considering the context and the fact that all of this is very recent one's expectations should be reasonable. They are referring to a future initiative not work they have done.

There does need to be sensitivity and so some training here would be very helpful. This is a potentially dangerous situation and it needs to be addressed. There are a lot of really stupid things Canada spends money on. This is not an area one should cut corners.

Speaks to me that the policy of multiculturalism isn't working and wasn't a good idea.
 

sanch

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2005
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1) The diversity of people and Canada attracting immigrants from around the world is a great idea. 2) There are different approaches that could have been used to settle them in Canada.

The official program of multiculturalism is just one way to manage immigration and the settlement of immigrants. Obviously multiculturalism is not working in Canada but it's not the fault of the immigrants. One has to blame the politicians.

There needs to be a new approach. The defenders of the flame though believe if you attack their appraoch to multiculturalism you don't support diversity. Canada can have more of #1 and still change #2.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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bluealberta said:
Jay said:
and explore how to make the RCMP, CSIS, other security forces more representative of the diversity in Canada.

What does that mean?

You know what that means. I have a better idea. While it is true that every Muslim is not a terrorist, it is also virtually true that every terrorist is a Muslim, at least recently. So I suggest that the Muslim community first have a meeting amongst their leaders to find out why this is so, and to come up with some suggestions about how THEY can fix what is becoming more and more obvious is THEIR problem, which negatively affects US. As a first suggestion, they could stop with comments that basically say that after years of investigation, the only reason the Toronto 17 were picked up was because they were Muslim. Yeah, right.

The Muslim community as a duty, now more than ever, to publicly, loudly, and continuously denounce all actions by Muslims which are construed to be terrorist acts. Simply saying that the ones picked up do not reflect Muslim teachings is no longer acceptable. They must do this, first, before anything else will work. They must condemn strongly and fully all Muslim terrorists and terrorist acts.

There are tenso of thousands of terrorists that there is in the world. But it is only Islamic terrorism that people want to fight against which is against a war on terror because it doesn't crack down on all terrorism.
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
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gc said:
That is just plain stupid. What is your point? Or do you honestly thnk that it is a bad thing to say that Muslims are causing terrorists acts to happen? Please tell me, what who caused the last terrorist act in North America, and what religious background did the Toronto 17 have? You can deny facts and reality all you want, but there is a very simple fact in all this. Of course I do not think that all Muslims are terrorists, far from it. But tell me who has caused the most terrorist acts in the last 5 - 10 years?

It was a joke, lighten up :wink:

It is not stupid, and I have not denied any facts or reality. Everything I said is fact. The purpose was to think about it from a different point of view. All I'm saying is that while many terrorist have Islam in common, what they also have in common is that they are Human. Are you denying that terrorists are human?

Of course not. Are you denying that virtually all recent terrorists are from the Muslim community?
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
931
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Of course not. Are you denying that virtually all recent terrorists are from the Muslim community?

Of course not. Although, most murderers are not from the Muslim community. Isn't that what terrorism is, murder?
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
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Vancouver, BC
Re: Acts of Terrorism

In relation to the comments made by gc above, it brings forth the interesting question of whether or not terrorism should be deemed to have a separate charge under the law. I saw a presentation on CPAC, by some who think that Criminal Code of Canada should be amended to remove references to terrorism, given that acts of terrorism are covered under other provisions of the Statute.

For example, the seventeen persons who had been arrested in the Province of Ontario for conspiracy to attack the Parliament of Canada and assassinate the Prime Minister of Canada, could just as effectively have been charged for treason, rather than charging them under terrorism-related provisions of the Statute. It would be quite hard, at times, to differentiate between which crimes are indeed terrorism, and which crimes should be considered under "standard" provisions.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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I'm not sure treason would stick.

"High treason
(1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,

(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;

(b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or

(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Treason
(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,

(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;

(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;

(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);

(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or

(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act."[2]

As I am not sure you can totally prove this. Also with the fact they threw away the plan to attack the parliment buildings would further hamper such a ruling.

I'm not even sure they will be able to get the terrorist charges to stick to more then couple of them. But most of them have conventional charges which can be laid, such as arms charges, and buying explosives and so on and so forth.
 

sanch

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2005
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The news article that served as the basis for this thread was about Muslim leaders reaching out and offering ideas and a plan to root out extremism in their communities. They identified a number of areas where they could begin this process. All of this is very preliminary but it is an effort.

Basically the message is that if we contain extremism today we do not have to fight terrorism tomorrow.

Now this thread has obviously been hijacked by those who wish to keep the focus on terrorism. That is fine but we have to remember that terrorism is a manifestation of a deeper problem and without addressing that problem more plots will emerge.

The Muslim leaders recognize this and this is to their credit. Hopefully their vision will prevail and they are not discouraged by the stupidity they encounter.
 

sanch

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2005
647
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gc said:
Of course not. Are you denying that virtually all recent terrorists are from the Muslim community?

Of course not. Although, most murderers are not from the Muslim community. Isn't that what terrorism is, murder?

In Europe authrorities are recognizing the limitations to ethnic sterotyping and that the far greater threat is from European converts to Islam and other westerners sympathetic to the terrorists.
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
931
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Looks like I accidentally started an interesting discussion, though I hope this is not too off-topic for this thread (I apologize if it is).

But most of them have conventional charges which can be laid, such as arms charges, and buying explosives and so on and so forth.

This is a good point. What about attempted murder? Would it be possible to charge them, or would attempted murder have to be an attempt on the life of a specific person? They clearly had the intention to kill. And if this does not fall under the (pre-terrorism) criminal code then it would make sense to change that. You can call it plotting to murder, terrorism or whatever you want to call it, it wouldn't make a difference because it would be the same charge.

Also if it could be proven that they were in fact going to behead the prime minister, perhaps they could be charged under 2 (d);

(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act;

(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
[/i]
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
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gc said:
Of course not. Are you denying that virtually all recent terrorists are from the Muslim community?

Of course not. Although, most murderers are not from the Muslim community. Isn't that what terrorism is, murder?

No, not entirely. A terrorist is one who spreads terror, and if murder accomplishes that, then that is one of his tools. But a terrorist may also do other things, such as get the word out that there is an anthrax outbreak, for example, or Bin Laden may make a claim that more airplanes will be used for certain purposes, which again can cause terror. Just disrupting lives is a minor form of terror, witness the new requirements we will need to go back and forth from the US, at some point in time. That inconvenience, IMO, is a subtle and minor form of terror. So yes, murder may be necessary to be a terrorist, but you don't necessarily have to be a murderer to be a terrorist. :)
 

dekhqonbacha

Electoral Member
Apr 30, 2006
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bluealberta said:
Jay said:
and explore how to make the RCMP, CSIS, other security forces more representative of the diversity in Canada.

What does that mean?

You know what that means. I have a better idea. While it is true that every Muslim is not a terrorist, it is also virtually true that every terrorist is a Muslim, at least recently.
...

I didn't know that Irish and Basques were Muslims.
 

dekhqonbacha

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Apr 30, 2006
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gc said:
You know what that means. I have a better idea. While it is true that every Muslim is not a terrorist, it is also virtually true that every terrorist is a Muslim, at least recently. So I suggest that the Muslim community first have a meeting amongst their leaders to find out why this is so, and to come up with some suggestions about how THEY can fix what is becoming more and more obvious is THEIR problem, which negatively affects US. As a first suggestion, they could stop with comments that basically say that after years of investigation, the only reason the Toronto 17 were picked up was because they were Muslim. Yeah, right.

The Muslim community as a duty, now more than ever, to publicly, loudly, and continuously denounce all actions by Muslims which are construed to be terrorist acts. Simply saying that the ones picked up do not reflect Muslim teachings is no longer acceptable. They must do this, first, before anything else will work. They must condemn strongly and fully all Muslim terrorists and terrorist acts.

While it is true that every Human is not a terrorist, it is also virtually true that every terrorist is a Human, at least recently. So I suggest that the Humans first have a meeting amongst their leaders to find out why this is so, and to come up with some suggestions about how THEY can fix what is becoming more and more obvious is THEIR problem, which negatively affects US. As a first suggestion, they could stop with comments that basically say that after years of investigation, the only reason the Toronto 17 were picked up was because they were Human. Yeah, right.

The Humans as a duty, now more than ever, to publicly, loudly, and continuously denounce all actions by Humans which are construed to be terrorist acts. Simply saying that the ones picked up do not reflect Human teachings is no longer acceptable. They must do this, first, before anything else will work. They must condemn strongly and fully all Human terrorists and terrorist acts.

This is a better interpretation.
 

bluealberta

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Apr 19, 2005
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dekhqonbacha said:
bluealberta said:
Jay said:
and explore how to make the RCMP, CSIS, other security forces more representative of the diversity in Canada.

What does that mean?

You know what that means. I have a better idea. While it is true that every Muslim is not a terrorist, it is also virtually true that every terrorist is a Muslim, at least recently. ...

I didn't know that Irish and Basques were Muslims.

REad the entire post. I made it clear that recently virtually all terrorists were Muslim. Of course there have been others, but recently, with very very few exceptions, Muslims have led the way.

To deny reality is to have reality slap you in the face.
 

bluealberta

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Apr 19, 2005
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Maybe this article from the Calgary Sun, June 18, will put a better spin on my comments. This guy I can respect fully:

Sun, June 18, 2006

Divided loyalties

Sociology prof warns multiculturalism 'creates nations within a nation'

By Licia Corbella

Dr. Mahfooz Kanwar recently attended Calgary's largest mosque for a funeral.

At one point in the proceedings, a man Kanwar has known for more than three decades led the prayers.

"He was saying in Urdu (the official language of Pakistan): 'Oh, God, protect us from the infidels, who pollute us with their vile ways,'" recalls Kanwar, a professor of sociology at Mount Royal College in Calgary.

"I stood up and grabbed him by the lapels, which was shocking even to me because I have never done anything like that in my life and I said: 'How dare you attack my country.' And then I addressed the crowd and said: 'I have known this man for more than 30 years and he has been on welfare for almost all of those years.' "

Kanwar chuckles at the memory.

"Then I said to this semi-literate man, 'you should thank me and those you call infidels.'

"He asked me why and I said: 'Because the taxes I pay are putting food on your table as are the taxes of the so-called "infidels.' "

Most Canadians and many Muslims would applaud Dr. Kanwar's righteous outburst. But guess which of the two men is no longer welcome at the Sarcee Tr. S.W. mosque?

Not the intolerant, hate-spewing semi-literate. No, it's Dr. Kanwar who's persona non grata.

That, says Kanwar, is just one of numerous instances he has experienced as a result of the culture of ignorance and intolerance that permeates so many mosques in Canada and throughout the world.

In light of the arrests two weeks ago of 17 young Muslim Canadian men who are alleged to have planned terrorist attacks against their fellow Canadians that included attacking Parliament, seizing the CBC and beheading the prime minister, Kanwar says it's vitally important for Canadians to start making more demands of those who immigrate to this country.

Kanwar says we now know one of the 17 accused was allowed to spew hatred and calls to violent jihad at a Toronto-area mosque and he was never once told by the leadership there to stop.

Six of the young men who listened to him are also charged in the plot.

Kanwar is pretty certain, if he spoke up at that mosque, however, with his message that Canada's culture is better than the culture found in any Islamic-based country, he'd be kicked out.

"The policy of official multiculturalism is a disaster," says Kanwar, who ironically once headed a government-funded multicultural organization in Calgary in the early '70s.

Every year, Kanwar's organization would host a large food and crafts festival in the basement of the Jubilee Auditorium.

"There were 52 tables, each with two flags on them -- Polish and Canadian, Ukrainian and Canadian etc. When the Alberta minister in charge of funding the festival showed up, I asked him, 'why is there not even one table here with a single flag -- why is there no Canadian table?'"

Kanwar has been questioning the government-funded official multicultural model ever since -- most recently through his 2002 book: Journey to Success, which is used as a sociology textbook at Mount Royal College and other post-secondary institutions.

"Multiculturalism creates nations within a nation and divides the loyalty of people," says the 65-year-old Pakastani-born Kanwar, who immigrated to Canada in 1966.

"It allows people to marginalize themselves. It endangers us all as these recent arrests show."

Because of Kanwar's open and published opposition to Ontario's proposal last year to consider allowing sharia law for arbitration purposes in that province, Kanwar says he has been issued with fatwahs -- not the death-threat versions made famous by the one issued against Salman Rushdie for writing the novel The Satanic Verses -- but more like a shunning.

Kanwar, a devout Muslim, says he has essentially been excommunicated by Calgary's mosques because he is too tolerant of others.

Homa Arjomand, who lives in Toronto and headed Canada's successful campaign of the International Campaign Against Sharia Court in Canada (www.nosharia.com), says like Kanwar, she too once embraced the idea of multiculturalism.

Arjomand, who calls herself a "victim" of sharia law -- a strict set of rules based on Islam's holy book, the Qur'an, that subjugates women, as well as allows for the chopping off of hands for theft etc. -- says part of the reason she decided to immigrate to Canada was because she had heard about official multiculturalism.

"I thought how wonderful, but not anymore," she declares.

"I came here for Canadian values, not sharia values. I fled Iran on horseback because the values there threatened my very life. If people want to live under sharia or the way they lived back home, let them go back," she said.

Kanwar agrees. He says the time has come for the Canadian government to tell new immigrants "once you're in Canada we expect you to be totally devoted to Canada -- no divided loyalties."

"This country," added Kanwar, "is a democracy and democracy is founded on Christian principles.

"Canada is -- like it or not, take it or leave it -- a country founded on Christian principles where the vast majority of citizens are Christians," said Kanwar.

"Yes, there's separation of church and state but even that was a principle founded by Christians and Christianity.

"If Muslims, or anyone else, doesn't like living in a land filled with Christians or in a democracy they should get the hell out."
I added the emphasis at the end. Well, said, sir, well said.
 

dekhqonbacha

Electoral Member
Apr 30, 2006
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bluealberta said:
...

REad the entire post. I made it clear that recently virtually all terrorists were Muslim. Of course there have been others, but recently, with very very few exceptions, Muslims have led the way.

To deny reality is to have reality slap you in the face.

It depends where you look at. If you look at only in media, yes,
it is also virtually true that every terrorist is a Muslim, at least recently. ...
but when you look in entire world, then your conclusion would be quite different.

It's like you are looking at one community in a Canadian city and you are concluding that the entire immigrant population of Canada is from a specific country.

Now, muslim terrorists became a subjec to discuss at media, so they only look places where terrorism is commited by Muslims.

If they talk about something else, no one bothers watchin, reading them.

Most people look at a TV which is only 20inch by 25inch and conclude that the world is what they see in there.