LARRY ZOLF:Harper veers to the middle
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RE: LARRY ZOLF:Harper vee
It's the beauty of minority governments. Unfortunately the recent balance has caused the Liberals to the Conservative side on everything but social issues.
I think they know what they are doing with this carbon bill too. They knew the NDP and BQ weren't going to support it, so they wrote something they knew the Conservative would oppose.
It has nothing to do with Kyoto though...they are trying to control the timing of the election. Gomery is likely to get uglier in the next bit, giving the BQ an edge in Quebec. The Liberals would like to go to the polls while the testimony isn't being broadcast every day.
They've put the Conservatives in a position where they (the Conservatives) either have to bring the government down and force an election, which will have a backlash among voters; or they will have to abstain as a party again, which looks bad to their core voters.
It's the beauty of minority governments. Unfortunately the recent balance has caused the Liberals to the Conservative side on everything but social issues.
I think they know what they are doing with this carbon bill too. They knew the NDP and BQ weren't going to support it, so they wrote something they knew the Conservative would oppose.
It has nothing to do with Kyoto though...they are trying to control the timing of the election. Gomery is likely to get uglier in the next bit, giving the BQ an edge in Quebec. The Liberals would like to go to the polls while the testimony isn't being broadcast every day.
They've put the Conservatives in a position where they (the Conservatives) either have to bring the government down and force an election, which will have a backlash among voters; or they will have to abstain as a party again, which looks bad to their core voters.
RE: LARRY ZOLF:Harper vee
Yeah, but it's the kind of death they can shake off and walk away from. They'll go to the polls over Kyoto while Gomery is off the air for technical reasons. Those reasons are legitimate too...nobody wants to taint an actual criminal case in favour of rushing testimony out.
The Liberals might lose a few seats in Quebec, but most of what they still have there is solid. They might lose what they have in Alberta, but we're all tired of listening to Annie pant anyway.
Outside of that, the only places where Gomery is having a real effect so far are places where somebody else owns the seats anyway...mostly Conservative and BQ strongholds.
So the Liberals will go to the polls and all three parties will whip the Conservatives on the environment and same sex marriage and BMD and you just know that some Conservative back-bencher is going to bring up abortion and somebody else will push for creationism in the classroom.
The Liberals will win another minority, but the electorate will be even less willing to see another election. Gomery will end in criminal charges and recriminations and slowly fade from the public mind. By the time the next election rolls around, the Liberals will get a majority.
Yeah, but it's the kind of death they can shake off and walk away from. They'll go to the polls over Kyoto while Gomery is off the air for technical reasons. Those reasons are legitimate too...nobody wants to taint an actual criminal case in favour of rushing testimony out.
The Liberals might lose a few seats in Quebec, but most of what they still have there is solid. They might lose what they have in Alberta, but we're all tired of listening to Annie pant anyway.
Outside of that, the only places where Gomery is having a real effect so far are places where somebody else owns the seats anyway...mostly Conservative and BQ strongholds.
So the Liberals will go to the polls and all three parties will whip the Conservatives on the environment and same sex marriage and BMD and you just know that some Conservative back-bencher is going to bring up abortion and somebody else will push for creationism in the classroom.
The Liberals will win another minority, but the electorate will be even less willing to see another election. Gomery will end in criminal charges and recriminations and slowly fade from the public mind. By the time the next election rolls around, the Liberals will get a majority.
RE: LARRY ZOLF:Harper vee
I love politics, MrMom...it's like watching a hockey fight and a NASCAR crash all in one, but if you show up at the right meetings the beer is free.
I love politics, MrMom...it's like watching a hockey fight and a NASCAR crash all in one, but if you show up at the right meetings the beer is free.
No, it reflects the fact the people of Quebec are turning against the Liberal Party. As I said before, for every Bloc MP there will be one less Liberal MP.
When the Liberal Party goes with a complete and under lack of a plan while from the outset costs are increasing exponentially, it is a recipe for disaster (both fiscally and politically).
I cut back on my energy output because it saves me money, not because Rick Mercer told me too.
The energy cuts that will be required to meet Kyoto commitment are enormous. If the Liberals are pinning their hopes on meeting these targets by perpetually running commercials telling Canadians to wash their socks in cold water they are in serious trouble.
The simple fact remains that any increase in costs as a result of the Kyoto initiative will eventually filter their way down to the consumer. If this shock is sudden enough (which given the Liberals lack of planning, it will most likely be) then we will soon have a Canadian public that has become very perturbed as their costs of living suddenly shoot up.
Canadians have yet to pay any significant costs to achieve the Kyoto commitments. When it's all talk, it's very easy to gain favour.
Polls have shown that more than half of Canadians are in favor of maintaining the traditional definition of marriage. If this is going to be an election issue, then why not side with the majority while the other three parties fight for votes on the other side.
With BMD, the Liberals fumbled badly. While Canadians may be warry of the whole concept, the way in which the Liberals appruptly got up and walked away from the issue left Canadians equally upset.
Having a seat at the table regarding the defence of North American airspace has been one of the pillars of Canada's military for over 50 years. Forgoing this position on a political whim was wrong.
The Conservatives and more united and more focused than the 2004 election, which they almost won. Going up against a weakened Liberal Party, with a "dithering" leader should make the next election much more interesting.
Re: RE: LARRY ZOLF:Harper vee
The Gomery enquiry is hurting the Liberals everywhere. The latest polls show Conservative momentum gaining again in Ontario.
If Paul Martin does not make gains come next election, there are a number of people in the Liberal Party sharpening their knives to take him out when the time is right. The long reign of Chretien and the failed Prime Ministership of Martin has many seeing an opportunity to seize power.
At which point you will see an internal political bloodbath worthy of the Conservative Party.
Reverend Blair said:
The Gomery enquiry is hurting the Liberals everywhere. The latest polls show Conservative momentum gaining again in Ontario.
If Paul Martin does not make gains come next election, there are a number of people in the Liberal Party sharpening their knives to take him out when the time is right. The long reign of Chretien and the failed Prime Ministership of Martin has many seeing an opportunity to seize power.
At which point you will see an internal political bloodbath worthy of the Conservative Party.
It hasn't hit hard yet though, Dukee...that's the point. Right now where it's having an effect are in seats that the Liberals don't presently hold.
The Liberals don't have bloodbaths, it's one of their greatest political strengths. Martin and Chretien hated and battled each other for how long? They still are, actually. It's never been a political liability to the party though. Come election time they all get on message and campaign from the left. When they win they hunker down and govern from the right.
For every Bloc MP there is another vote for leftist policy. I like that.
:wink:
It is only the NDP that have come out with a plan though. The BQ have supported that plan. The Conservatives have no plan.
Go to the web-site and get some ideas. You will save more. You'll also be more comfortable. The idea is a solid one, it just lacks incentives and leadership. It should be accompanied by things like dropping all taxes on insulation and vapour barriers etc. No need for an inspector, no paperwork. Just a discount of between 5% and 14%.
So push your party to push for the adoption of the NDP plan. As Jack Layton said on Politics today, if they would take that plan into the House and debate it and modify it, they would be able to meet the targets. It's a solid plan.
What sudden increases? The oil industry estimates costs between seven and twenty-five cents a barrel. The auto industry has already done most of the R&D. Factories save money by going green. Any increases will be small and incremental.
There are no significant costs. Changes in technology create wealth, they don't destroy it. That has been the case throughout history and there is no reason to think it will be any different this time.
That depends on the poll and the quetion asked, as well as where the poll took place. Again, the support comes mostly from areas that are already Conservative seats.
Most Canadians were happy that we didn't sign up. There was no "table" to sit at...the US was going to do as it pleased anyway. Harper's claims that we were never told what the deal was do not stand up to scrutiny, we al knew what the deal was.
The US has long-term plans to have weapons in space, including so called "Rods from God". They have said so. BMD is just the first step towards that. They have said so. They were going to do it anyway. They have said that. They wanted nothing from us but political legitimacy. That's implied by the fact that they wanted no money or land.
We stayed out of nukes. We stayed out of Star Wars I. This is no different.
They didn't almost win though. What they did was lose. The Liberals won't get a majority this time around, but everything that was claimed to be part of Harper's secret agenda, with the exception of abortion, is now official Conservative policy. You just know the back-benchers from Alberta will drag up abortion though.
Which is why they are pushing the Conservatives to force an election now.
Don't bet on it. The Liberals hav already had their public feud. They managed to sweep the dirt back under the carpet. Read Sheila Copps' book and see where Martin stood on Iraq when the US war machine was just firing up. Never hear that though, do ya? Just like everybody remembers him saying no to BMD but nobody remembers the two years he spent pushing for it.
They gave Martin an 88% approval rating at their convention. That's a better rating than Harper got at your convention. They'll keep their differences in the basement where they belong.
But it's not helping you. In fact, it is arguably hurting the Conservatives because people are voting for a party that represents the opposite policies from theirs.
You are equating reductions in greenhouse emissions with a reduction in the economy. That simply doesn't match reality. Eco-friendlier cars are still cars, eco-friendlier houses are still houses. In fact they contribute more to the economy when being built and free up more cash to go back into the economy after they have been sold.
The same goes for factories and office buildings. Even the oil industry says that Kyoto will only cost them between $0.07 and $0.25 per barrel. No great cost there. Where the government has spent most of the money so far is on R&D, which generates returns in the long run.
Do you have any proof of this whatsoever?
Why? What could possibly make this time around any different? How come Britain has managed to reduce emissions while growing their economy?
The Porter hypothesis has been proven true again and again throughout history. Ever since caveman Zug cracked open a zebra bone with a rock, advances in technology have generated wealth for those have adopted them.
The arguments against the Porter Hypothesis are false constructs. They are based on the reluctance of corporations to compete on a level playing field and a fight to keep the massive wealth generated by fossil fuel exploitation in the hands of a very few beneficiaries.
Purposely undermining efforts at developing and implementing environmentally friendlier technologies doesn't make the hypothesis untrue, it just shows those who would undermine it for their own personal wealth to be greedy weasels who would whore out their own children for a dollar.
Except for the xenophobic immigration and foreign policies of the Conservatives undermine that.
We never had a voice in the first place. When was the last time the US listened to anybody?
I was in some pretty heated debates about it. The deal was that we could lend our name to the US to trash on the international stage and they'd do whatever the hell they wanted. We could watch.
It wasn't petty internal politics. It was a minority government not being willing to sign onto to something that 70% of Canadians were against. That's called democracy, my friend.
You forgot China.
Not one of them has first-strike capability against the others because the basic tenets of MAD are still in place. This is all about developing first strike capability.
It also won't work because as soon as Georgie started making new weapons so did everybody else.
There is no legitimate threat of an ICBM strike by a so-called rogue state. Even if they had the ability (that's questionable, by the way), ICBMs are easily trackable. Any small state that launched such an attack would be a smoking hole in the ground before they knew if their missile had hit its target.
We still are.
They got a lower percentage of the popular vote than the PCs and Alliance got the election before.
What was the secret agenda? Regressive social policies and increased integration with the US. Making that into official policy doesn't make it mainstream.
We'll see about that. As for now, the Liberal brand continues to be whittled away everyday.
The fued is still there. Martin will never be able to completely purge Chretien's influence from the party.
As for Martin's flip-flopping, the term "Dithers" will follow to the end of his political career (and beyond).
And for me going and reading "Worth Fighting For", life is to precious than to spend it reading Sheild Copps' last ditch attempt to make herself feel important. I've already pretty much got the jist of it from the endless number of people coming out to discredit it after its release.
This is because Martin is still the party's ticket to power and privelage. If that fails, the knives will come out quickly.
Which alienates a large number of voters who don't beleive in those policies. In the long term, this plants the seeds for a conservative movement to rebuild itself in Quebec. Support is building in areas like Quebec City where conservative talk radio is gaining in popularity.
I'll put it this way. The economy has grown faster than expected, meanind that the industries that turn out CO2 have grown along with us. The reduction in CO2 to meet our Kyoto targets is now greater because the total amount we churn out is greater than what was expected. The overall cost to bring these levels down is now greater too. And with the Liberals going into it blindly, and billions of dollars now being readied to throw at the problem, this could get very ugly.[/quote]
No plan + growing billions in expected costs + Liberal incompetence + a dizzying array of new regulations to enforce = an administrative and fiscal nightmare.
Remember how the gun registry was to cost less than $10 million?
I never said technology does not create wealth. It's like Adam Smith said in The Wealth of Nations, technology and specialization are the very root of increases in wealth.
What I said was imposing regulations on industry creates new costs of abatement that must be paid for by both the industry and the consumer, and neither one of them will be better off because of it. Technology plays a role in reducing the extent of these new costs.
We all benefit from the wealth generated. In Saskatchewan we are dependent on it to fund our hospitals, schools, etc. etc.
The Conservative Party has the most ethnically diverse caucus in Parliament. The Liberals are finding it harder and harder to play the race card. The ethnic vote that has traditionally voted Liberal because they believe that they are the ones that brought them here is starting to abandon them.
The means in which we walked away means our voice will truely mean nothing to them. Had we been at the table, we would have had influence in the decisions, instead of watching from the sidelines.
We could have participated in defending North America, rather than letting someone else do it.
So the timing of the decisions relative to date of the Liberal Party convention was a coincidence???
Trouble is, countries like North Korea don't really consider MAD when they are being run by ruthless and mad dictators. Having a degree of protection from destruction on a massive scale is a prudent idea.
If they don't have the ability now, it doesn't stop them from gaining it in the near future.
And while if such an event would occur, most certainly the country of origin would be a smoking hole, but so too could be the city of Los Angeles.
Rome was not built in a day.
The policy is smart and it is sellable. Like I said before, Mr. Harper will be Canada's next Prime Minister.
Harper has been backing away from it because he realizes he walked into a trap. He wants to split the bill now. The NDP will vote to split too. That leaves the BQ making the decision...they seem to want an election. They won't take the heat for that though, the Conservatives will because they are the official opposition.
But they keep it bottled up.
If you want dirt on Martin, that's the place to find it. By the way, the parts about BMD and Iraq are independently verifiable. There were newspaper and magazine articles about it when it was happening.
Not in public they won't. There will be murmers and rumours, but Martin will decide to retire and there will be an orderly and polite leadership race.
You won't win a single seat in Quebec. Not now, not in the near future.
The economic benefits are greater too.
We'll see. Just don't forget to look at both sides of the balance sheet.
Sure...and the introduction of the automobile made everybody poorer and computers nearly bankrupted us all. :roll:
Saskatchewan is closer to the seven cents per barrel than the 25 cents. Oil is useful for far more than burning as fuel and your main market, the US, isn't going to quit buying your product. Meanwhile you are already diversifying into alternate energies and windfarms, often in ways that will lead to technology sales and increased income.
The make-up of your caucus does not change your policies. Elections are about platforms, not attracting fundamentalists from non-Christian religions.
It never did. Look at the record.
We would have no influence whatsoever. We would have had the right to protest and those protests would fall on deaf ears. The US is in a very unilateralist mood and will be for the forseeable future.
Defending against what, a nonexistent threat?
There are no coincidences in politics. Martin got told that he couldn't sell BMD to the Canadian people because 70% of us are against it.
There is absolutely no evidence that Kim Il Jong is suicidal. There is also nothing indicating that he is stupid. He might be nuts, but he's not going to try to nuke LA...at least not with an ICBM.
No, but while it was being built it grew instead of shrinking.
Not outside of Alberta and rural Saskatchewan.
All parties would take the heat for an early election.
So long as the Liberals can continue to dole out the goodies. If they fail to do this, I would expect the trouble caused by Copps to represent just the tip of the iceberg.
Don't get me wrong. I have no problem watching Liberals taking pot shots at each other.
Martin's people have been working for well over a decade to gain the reigns of power. They will not go out quietly and without a fight. And Chretien's people will be happy to give them one.
Quebec voters have historically voted to maintain influence in the corridors of power. If the indicators point to a Conservative government, they will see to it that they are represented.
This is what has me worried. The admistrative costs of running this program will be astronomical. The admistrative costs of having thousands of government employees running around monitioring and enforcing new regulations will dwarf the costs of the relatively simple gun registry. Throw in one or two unforeseen circumstances and you have the government spending blackhole to end all spending blackholes.
And this is even without considering Canada shipping out Canadian wealth to third world countries like the Ukraine to buy hot air emmissions.
Policies like fighting government corruption and arrogance, lowering taxes, reducing the debt, reigning in Canada's revolving-door justice system and strengthening Canada's role internationally have appeal across ethnic lines.
As for the Conservatives' social positions, they pretty much represent a status quo approach to these divisive issues. Contrary to what those on the left believe, not every Canadian is fighting to recreate society.
It never did. Look at the record.[/quote]
It doesn't help that our government has a track record of petty, juvenile insults.
Besides this, our government has taken the strive towards mediocrity to be its overarching policy goal.
Living in the period of Pax Americana is great. But to deny that we have any responsibilities in defending North America damages Canada's purpose as a nation.
He was told that it would be a devisive issue at the Liberal Party convention and would hurt what they wanted to portray in the media as a party united.
You can never underestimate the unpredictability and threat of madmen like Kim Jong Il.
Hey, it's like you've said before, the Canadian media is controlled by right-wing interests. Maybe they for once will help conservatives.
The official opposition always take the majority of the heat, especially with swing voters.
Don't count on it. The Liberals have a very long record of not fighting in the open.
Quebec voters have traditionally voted for the party that would represent them best. That isn't the Conservatives. Their issues are best promoted by the BQ.
You have no proof of any of that. It will be administered mostly by existing employees working in existing departments. We already have people in government dealing with the environment and pollution.
This is not the gun registry.
If we meet and surpass our targets, we will be able to sell Kyoto credits. Your resistance to the program will not help us achieve that.
Policies like reduced immigration, tighter restrictions on refugees, racial profiling, support for globalization policies and US hegemony do not though. In fact they scare the living crap out of much of the immigrant community.
You would use the notwithstanding clause to take away human rights. That isn't the status quo. The status quo in eight provinces and territories is that gays and lesbians can marry. Over-riding a court decision to force your religious beliefs on others is a radical act.
The US record is at least as bad, it just doesn't show up on the news when the junior Senator from Alabama says something. Here a backbencher says something and it's taken out of context and trumpeted from the rooftops.
BMD has nothing to do with defending North America. It doesn't work.
No, he was told that the Canadian people wouldn't stand for it. Very clearly. By the Canadian people.
He's not unpredictable though. He is very predictable.
They always do. That you fail anyway shows how far outside the mainstream you really are. You'll have MacLean's endorsement this time...they just picked up the old editor from the National Post.
Which makes this internal war ever the more interesting.
Liberal infighting has always been kept to a minimum to maintain the strength of the Liberal brand.
In the last election, this brand had become so damaged that they Liberals choose to run under the banner of "Team Martin", keeping Liberal references to a minimum. Now that the Martin Prime Ministership has turned out to be a dithering failure, the possibility of lost power and privilage will tear them apart.
The glory days of the Liberal Party have past.
Quebec voters vote for what they believe will bring about the greatest benefit for Quebec. Weilding influence in the party that will most likely form the next government is, in Quebec's interests, advantageous.
The Liberal track record, combined with budget estimates for Kyoto that doubled within one month of the federal budget is all the proof I need. The administrative costs are mindboggling. This thing might as well be called "Liberal's Bane".
The way in which CO2 emissions have risen in Canada since Kyoto has created make that an impossiblity. When Canadians first taste of Kyoto is wealth leaving Canada, there will be a huge political price to pay.
I fail to see where Conservatives have any policy on reducing immigration. Our economy is dependent on immigrants, and given Mr. Harper's academic background, he is certainly aware of that. Besides that, members from minority groups are some of the brightest and most important members of the Conservative Party.
A Conservative government would continue to welcome refugees into the country (though probably with a lot less emphasis on doing as a means of gaining new political support than the Liberal Party has done in the past).
To most Canadians, maintaining the traditional definition of marriage is not a radical act. It is the status quo to 98% of the population.
Hopefully the Conservatives will foster a more professional relationship.
But who's to say it will never work in the future. As technology advances, what seems an impossibility yesterday will become commonplace then next.
Maybe predictably rash and maniacal.
Wow, an endorsement from the Liberal's mouthpiece would be quite an achievement.
You know dundee it amazes me how you guys never learn anything from your mistakes, using the sheila copps thing, well that really turns canadians off. Whats worse than someone yelling foul after the fact. These are the tatics that lost the last slam dunk the conservatives thought they had.
I am surprised that you are so sure the conservatives will win an election. How long ago did the majority of canadian people say no to a conservative government. You seem to be under the illusion that its just this board that does not agree with the conservative idealogy. The election told you different. Its hard to hide stoneage ideas tho, so I have no doubts that the conservatives will shoot themselves in the head again and try to blame somebody else for it.
I am surprised that you are so sure the conservatives will win an election. How long ago did the majority of canadian people say no to a conservative government. You seem to be under the illusion that its just this board that does not agree with the conservative idealogy. The election told you different. Its hard to hide stoneage ideas tho, so I have no doubts that the conservatives will shoot themselves in the head again and try to blame somebody else for it.
Don't count on it. They are very good at this game.
If that were true, they wouldn't have voted BQ last time around. In fact the BQ wouldn't exist.
Assertions based on misanalyzing numbers projected for political reasons is hardly proof.
You should read the NDP Kyoto Plan, Dukee. It shows how it is possible and how the economy will benefit. There are also studies by a couple of NGOs who have been working with industry. Your member (and I use that in the most derogatory sense) from Saskatoon-Humbolt called them luddites, but he's the one resisting new technology and scientific fact.
Except they don't want to let poor people in and they want to reduce people coming from countries they don't like and they want to cut back on refugees and force them to have their paperwork all ready when they get here.
Taking away people's charter rights is not the status quo though. You would have to invoke Notwithstanding to reverse the court decisions in eight jurisdictions. Most people don't care whether gays and lesbians marry or not, but they sure as hell don't want the government to discriminate against them.
Last time you saw Stevie Harper was that Texan semen you smelled on his breath?
The Canadian Physicists. They say it will be many, many generations. Even if it does work, it's easy to defeat with decoys and by sending more missiles.
He's an absolutely known quantity.
Half the staff at MacLean's have always backed the Conservatives.
Harper and texas semen hahahahahahahahahah is that seniors or juniors or maybe both? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: