Knowing and learning

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Knowing and learning

I sure wish I knew what the Hell you're talking about. It sounds like it might mean something, but so far I haven't been able to puzzle it out.

For instance, you say this:

Without the brain there is no mind, but the mind is separate from the brain.

And then you say this:

If the brain is limited, damaged, the mind is also damaged.

Don't you see that at best only one of those statements can be true? I'm not going to do a detailed analysis of your lengthy posts here, but there's a lot of confusing inconsistency and vagueness like that in them. You throw around undefined concepts like "the source of all happiness" as if they were commonly understood ideas, and say things about children being in touch with the unknown. If it's unknown, how can anyone be in touch with it?

Actually you lost me with your first post in this thread. I've read enough of your posts to know you're no fool, so I keep looking at this thread and assuming there must be some substance here, but so far it's gone right by me.

 

[humanbeing]

btw China, it seems like you are interested in a different approach to education. Perhaps something more along the lines of Francisco Ferrer's ideas or the resulting modern school movement from back in the day (though they still exist even now, in different forms).

Ideally, these institutions are designed to allow kids to play and explore and learn on their own impetus, with materials and adult teachers around to help students on an equal basis when asked or needed.

Perhaps looking at these institutions might help to show if the current educational institutions are indeed a factor in the degradation of 'creative happiness' that you are concerned about? Though I must admit I don't quite follow you...

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Yeah, I'd agree humanbeing, the educational experience can be a pretty bleak time for a lot of kids. Both of my two, for instance, actively disliked high school, and my son in particular... well, frankly I've never seen anybody who hated school as much as he did. It's often a sick little subculture based on cliques and popularity, with a layer of random authoritarianism from the school administrators overlaid on top. That was certainly true of the high school he had to go to. Fortunately he's perceptive enough to understand that the diploma is a useful ticket to other places, so he toughed it out with a lot of support from his parents (though he seriously panicked us more than a few times) and eventually got where he wanted to go; he's now the web master for a pretty substantial organization.

I have a strong suspicion that our educational systems are failing at their two primary duties: giving our children a basic level of knowledge about the world they live in, and teaching them how to think and learn. They're not too bad at the former, usually, but at the latter they suck the big one. They teach them what to think, not how to think, and one consequence of that is that there's no end to the mystic nonsense in this culture. Astrology, homeopathy, naturopathy, iridology, reflexology, reiki... ach, the list is infinite. Anybody who knows how to think clearly would reject all of those after a ten minute inspection of their claims and the evidence for them. But most of us don't learn at school how to think clearly. I certainly didn't, and it's taken me decades to figure it out on my own, despite being thoroughly trained to the post-graduate level in the sciences and spending a 30+ year career engaged in various scientific matters.

Our educational systems generally don't teach our children how to think. I had to do that for them myself, and it was one of the most difficult tasks I've ever set myself. I didn't want to simply indoctrinate them into thinking the same way I do, so most of my teaching of them consisted of questions like, why do you think X is true? followed by a careful dissection of their answers. And I always tried to encourage them to challenge me the same way. And by gawd they sure did, especially in late adolescence. I learned at least as much from them as they did from me.

And they both graduated from their post secondary educations in the top 5% of the class, and they're both doing very well. I am hugely pleased with and proud of both of them, and I like to think I deserve some of the credit for their success, despite my parallel belief that your children will be whoever they'll be regardless of anything you try to do for them.

Eh, we do the best we can, hope for the best, pray for the rest... well, I'm not a praying man, I'm an atheist (at least so far), but I carefully haven't closed any doors in that area.

And it's late at night in my time zone, I've recently come home from a fabulous party at the home of some of my favourite people, and I may be a little too tired and too full of good scotch to be making sense.

 

[s_lone]

Despite your rather dogmatic skepticism concerning "obscure" subject such as astrology, you make perfect sense to me Dexter Sinister... I had good parents and from what you describe, you were and still are an excellent one... There is nothing more precious than learning how to think and it is to your great merit if you managed to guide your children wisely through their intellectual development...

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Knowing and learning

Despite your rather dogmatic skepticism concerning "obscure" subject such as astrology...

Yeah I know all about that, and I'd strongly challenge your use of "dogmatic" in this context, but let's not open that can of worms here. It's way off topic.

 

[china]

It is always difficult to keep simple and clear. The world worships success, the bigger the better; the greater the audience the greater the speaker; the colossal super buildings, cars, aeroplanes and people. Simplicity is lost. The successful people are not the ones who are building a new world. To be a real revolutionary requires a complete change of heart and mind, and how few want to free themselves. One cuts the surface roots; but to cut the deep feeding roots of mediocrity, success, needs something more than words, methods, compulsions. There seem to be few, but they are the real builders--the rest labor in vain.
One is everlastingly comparing oneself with another, with what one is, with what one should be, with someone who is more fortunate. This comparison really kills. Comparison is degrading, it perverts one's outlook. And on comparison one is brought up. All our education is based on it and so is our culture. So there is everlasting struggle to be something other than what one is. The understanding of what one is uncovers creativeness, but comparison breeds competitiveness, ruthlessness, ambition, which we think brings about progress. Progress has only led so far to more ruthless wars and misery than the world has ever known. To bring up children without comparison is true education. JK.

 

[china]

Lieutenant Governor : What exactly are you learning about yourself from moment to moment?

Obviously ... myself..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dexter Sinister :False analogy, in my opinion. Machines are indeed capable of learning

Think again of what you are saying my dear friend.

DEXTER SINISTER:Uh... was there not a moment when a sperm met an egg to create you? Was there not a moment when you were born? ----------------
My body....? ,yes.

Do you not expect to die some day? Isn't that an end of some sort?

Yes , I am , from moment to moment ...to my past.

 

[china]

Vereya :Learning is not simply the accumulation of information. It is also acquiring understanding of some facts or phenomena, of the way things work and of why they work in that particular way, and getting to use this understanding in your everyday life. That's the sense of learning somehing, in my opinion. ------------------------------

Is there learning when you are merely accumulating knowledge, gathering information?

Vereya ,please read the post again . --------------------------

Vereya :You live in a world, that develops according to some definite rules and laws. They exist, and they work, regardless of you. And that is an objective fact. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And so do I ,regardless of any developed rules and laws developed by the world.
And so Christ said ...be in this world but don't be of this world..and thats a fact . ( now, try to figure out this one ,Vereya)

 

[Vereya]

Re: RE: Knowing and learning

Vereya ,please read the post again . --------------------------

Vereya :You live in a world, that develops according to some definite rules and laws. They exist, and they work, regardless of you. And that is an objective fact. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And so do I ,regardless of any developed rules and laws developed by the world.
And so Christ said ...be in this world but don't be of this world..and thats a fact . ( now, try to figure out this one ,Vereya)

I did read your post once again, China. It is most interesting. However, I again failed to see the inadequacy of my answer to your post.
And as for trying to figure out what Christ said or was supposed to have said, I'd rather not. It's three years already since I'm done with figuring out his teachings. And discussing that particular phrase that you mentioned would be off-topic in this thread.

 

[china]

Vereya ; here we go again.There is no inadequacy in your answer to the post re."Learning is not simply the accumulation of information. It is also acquiring understanding of some facts or phenomena, of the way things work and of why they work in that particular way, and getting to use this understanding in your everyday life. That's the sense of learning somehing, in my opinion." ,the post agrees with you -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You state:Vereya :You live in a world, that develops according to some definite rules and laws. They exist, and they work, regardless of you. And that is an objective fact. ------------------------------------------------------ And so do I Vereya!,I also exist ,regardless of some definite rules and laws .The meaning of what Christ said and the way I understand it is ,.."be in this world (society) but dont be a part of it",( dont be a part of definite rules and laws ) but I could be wrong ...I havent read the Bible in long time.