Kenya - the seeds of GREED are HATE

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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http://tinyurl.com/2shhe5

Would anybody join me in untangling and sorting out the issues currently plaguing Kenya? I know we live far away from there and Kenya is no threat to us, but as peace-loving Canadians we should be interested what went wrong in that country to cause such bloody and deathly upheavels.
Feel free to have an opinion!
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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What's happened in Kenya is tribalism. Kenya is not a unified country. Until it is, tribal warfare will occur. If we can't even stop the French and English from clashing here, can't stop the First Nations and government from clashing, then we don't really have much chance of stopping a country based on centuries of deeply ingrained tribalism, from engaging in violence.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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What's happened in Kenya is tribalism. Kenya is not a unified country. Until it is, tribal warfare will occur. If we can't even stop the French and English from clashing here, can't stop the First Nations and government from clashing, then we don't really have much chance of stopping a country based on centuries of deeply ingrained tribalism, from engaging in violence.
What a valuable point, karrie. You must have a good day today or at least so far. Unfortunately, my time at the computer has expired for the next few hours, but I will be back with proper response.;-)
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Back already, jiggedy-jig....

Annan helps restart talks amid Kenyan violence

Former UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan brought President Mwai Kibaki and oppositional leader Raila Odinga together on Tuesday.

"To the leaders gathered here today I say that the people want you to take charge of the situation and do whatever possible to halt the downward spiral that is threatening this beautiful and prosperous country," he said.
Read more here:

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/To...e&newsitemid=CTVNews/20080129/kenya_MP_080129
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Here's a solution:

For nations and cultures which are so in-touch with their tribal roots and can sometimes cause divisions to a violent point such as we have been seeing here, it clearly demostrates the flaws in democracy and how it can easily fuel tensions between differing viewpoints which both think they are the correct ones.... esspecially when the Democratic Process has been rigged or tampered with.

Until they can solve their differences between the tribal schisms, perhaps Democracy isn't the best solution for them at this stage, and require one person/party to handle the basic requirements of the nation, such as policing, security, food, electricity, supplies, etc... and have another division of a smaller democratic process which can bring the tribal factions together and finally resolve their differences, so that they would then be prepared to shift back over to a democratic government which all/most could accept. This democratic process would not hold any major control over the country until they can come to a mutual agreement and form a solid government.
 
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karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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? We'd need to hand over our sovereignty if that were the case. Mutual agreement and stability seem in short supply even here Prax.
 

amagqira

Nominee Member
Oct 15, 2006
53
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Tribal/ethnic/religious affiliation will always be strong divisive factors especially if one group is numerically stronger than the rest - the old Yugoslavia is an important case in point. Democracy isn't worth much for minority groups if the numerically dominant group practises patronage and dominates all political structures as they they invariably do. Your vote isn't worth much if you cannot change the incumbent government, because all tribes/ethnic groups will vote according to religious/ethnic/tribal loyalties.

Only two answers come to mind - divide the country up into cantons according to religious/tribal/ethnic group - a la Swiss model and each with a high degree of autonomy or split up the country into separate countries as in the old Yugoslavia.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Map of Africa: http://www.library.northwestern.edu/africana/map/
Kenya is not that large, perhaps a wee bit larger than Germany. Splitting it into two or three small countries, as Praxius was suggesting, is an idea to be pondered, just look at all the tiny countries in Southern Europe or even right on the West coast of Africa.

Main thing is they are talking. With Kofi's help they might find a workable solution. I guess Kofi is the perfect negotiator person, being a black man himself. What country is he actually from? Perhaps Kenya!!
NO, he is from Ghana!

Latest news I could find from the hot spot in Africa:
http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed2/idUSWAL22103220080129

And here from Brussels: http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed2/idUSL2936685120080129
 

amagqira

Nominee Member
Oct 15, 2006
53
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Most african countries are artificial creations by the colonisers of africa and boundaries often cut across original tribal lands leaving a tribe represented on both sides of a border.

Few subsaharan african countries have developed an unifying concept of nationhood with the exception of Botswana which is dominated and populated by 95% Batswanas. No wonder they have a peaceful country. Having a few diamond mines certainly doesn't do them any harm but they have used that income wisely and invested in healthcare and housing - which is more than can be said for many others.

Nyerere in Tanzania made a wise decision to use and develop Swahili as a common language. He made a few silly economic decisions but the idea of a language as an unifying factor was a good one.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Kenya is not that large, perhaps a wee bit larger than Germany. Splitting it into two or three small countries, as Praxius was suggesting, is an idea to be pondered, just look at all the tiny countries in Southern Europe or even right on the West coast of Africa.

Well I wasn't really pointing towards seperation of the country, but a dual governmental system which helps maintain the basic requirements of everyday living, and allows space and time to evolve their democratic process to the point where they can start to see eye to eye. Once evolved to that stage, switch over.

With seperation of the country into other divisions, that just allows to prolong the divisions already within the tribes and will help promote very few chances of getting them together for talks. Of course they may get their areas developed and run the way they want, but then later on down the road, somebody's going to build on someone's land, or someone is going to murder or mug someone from another area and then it'll move from tribal violence, to possible organized wars, such as a few currently going on today between sides which don't seem to meet eye to eye.

Borders don't really solve problems... they just try and seperate them to make it appear there are none.

What I was talking about was something along the lines of a Martial Law ruled by the military which is not loyal to any political party, but the country's well being and the people within. Something like how Pakistan's Military has the control over their own Nuclear Weapons, but Mush'head-Arif doesn't (I maybe wrong on those details, as it's been a while)
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Well I wasn't really pointing towards seperation of the country, but a dual governmental system which helps maintain the basic requirements of everyday living, and allows space and time to evolve their democratic process to the point where they can start to see eye to eye. Once evolved to that stage, switch over.

With seperation of the country into other divisions, that just allows to prolong the divisions already within the tribes and will help promote very few chances of getting them together for talks. Of course they may get their areas developed and run the way they want, but then later on down the road, somebody's going to build on someone's land, or someone is going to murder or mug someone from another area and then it'll move from tribal violence, to possible organized wars, such as a few currently going on today between sides which don't seem to meet eye to eye.

Borders don't really solve problems... they just try and seperate them to make it appear there are none.

What I was talking about was something along the lines of a Martial Law ruled by the military which is not loyal to any political party, but the country's well being and the people within. Something like how Pakistan's Military has the control over their own Nuclear Weapons, but Mush'head-Arif doesn't (I maybe wrong on those details, as it's been a while)
Sorry, for getting the facts muddled... I always forget that I can just scroll down to read the previous posts, instead of clicking away and then try to come back only to find what I just wrote has disappeared!! :roll:
Your ideas are sound and worth a try, but under the current uproar and chaos it will be hard to enforce any rule or any change. Their blood is boiling! If the election results were tempered with then that should be investigated. But then, Praxius, that kind of corruption goes on in the most highest places everywhere.

I just found an article entitled "Kenya's 'mafia' feel the heat". It talks about boycotting plans by the opposition of companies allied to Kibaki's ruling party.and its clan. That is a powerful tool, because it involves money and might make an impression.
(It won't let me do a copy and paste job for some unknown reason so, just click on the link to read the article.)
ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7199757.stm
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The US has now gotten involved with a sharp condemnation of the ethnic cleansing that has been going on.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7216872.stm

With further checking I found this link, which records that the US government was already advised by the CIA before the elections which candidate to put their money on,
http://kenyapolitical.blogspot.com/2007/07/cia-secret-report-on-odm-crisis.html
It is understood that the Americans were showing a preference to ODM ostensibly because Kibaki’s style of leadership was rolling back the gains of democracy and losing the war on high level graft something that has enraged Washington and was echoed by visiting senator of Kenyan roots Barrack Obama early this year.
With ODM now as good as dead thanks to endless infighting, the Americans now look at Kibaki through different lenses much to the chagrin of Kalonzo who had reportedly counted on the US to provide him with campaign cash.

The CIA, blamed for the overthrow of some African governments like Ghana’s Kwame Nkrumah and murder of Congo’s Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba as the cold war raged in the 1960’s, was created in 1947 with the signing of the National Security Act by President Harry S. Truman. The CIA’s responsibilities include collecting, correlating and evaluating intelligence related to the national security and providing appropriate dissemination of such intelligence.
At least it looks this time like the CIA didn't actively get involved in the tempering, but the day isn't over yet, one never knows!
 

Lester

Council Member
Sep 28, 2007
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Maybe a tribal congress to watch over commerce and the like, and a military to keep civil order- youv'e got to have some checks and balances or it will be continuous civil war. a chain on the dog so to speak.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Maybe a tribal congress to watch over commerce and the like, and a military to keep civil order- youv'e got to have some checks and balances or it will be continuous civil war. a chain on the dog so to speak.

How about sanctions and aid cut-offs?

High time to lose patience in Kenya
The international community should explicitly link emergency aid to frankly political objectives.

Enlarge Image
Anthony Jenkins

http://tinyurl.com/2bwrbo
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
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Vancouver Island
What's happened in Kenya is tribalism. Kenya is not a unified country. Until it is, tribal warfare will occur. If we can't even stop the French and English from clashing here, can't stop the First Nations and government from clashing, then we don't really have much chance of stopping a country based on centuries of deeply ingrained tribalism, from engaging in violence.

I appreciate your point, and I'm sure glad those similarities don't include teen agers running
around with machetis (sp?) looking to separate someone from their head.
 
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amagqira

Nominee Member
Oct 15, 2006
53
4
8
Alberta
For years Kenyan life has been dominated by the Kikuyu tribe with widespread corruption, nepotism and tribalism. It is not that different in western democracies - political favours and patronage have often been dispensed to those who support the incumbent political party with the difference that in the west your origin is of little importance as opposed to the political party you support. In Africa however, there is much more emphasis on group identity than individual identity and in times of fear or turmoil people will retreat into their group identity for safety and protection since the state has already shown its proclivity for protection and advancement of one group above all else.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Well, it's been a while since we talked about Kenya. This morning I saw a colorful headline in the New York Times.... http://www.nytimes.com/



Kenya Rivals Sign Power-Sharing Deal

By JEFFREY GETTLEMAN 15 minutes ago
Kenyan President Mwai Kibaki, left, and Raila Odinga, the opposition leader, with Kofi Anan. The agreement included a key demand of the opposition.No other details are available yet, BUT it is good to see, they have agreed to share the power after all that violence and many deaths.
We clearly see a happy, perhaps proud, Kofi Anan!:smile:










.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Promises are being made!!:smile:

Odinga pledges to rebuild Kenya
Prime minister-designate Raila Odinga has told the BBC his priority will be to rebuild Kenya after a deal to end the two-month political crisis.

He pledged to help those who had been displaced, lost their property or lost their jobs during the violence in which some 1,500 people died.

Mr Odinga also pledged to reconcile Kenyans, after the violence took on an ethnic dimension, forcing some 600,000 from their homes.

Mr Odinga said the agreement was "just a piece of paper" - the most important thing was the will behind it.

"It means we recognise Mr Kibaki as president and he recognises that there were some flaws in the elections," he told the BBC.

He hoped for a new constitution within a year and fresh elections within two as Mr Annan had given the coalition a maximum life of two years, after which it should be reviewed.

But some of those displaced question whether ethnic hatreds can be healed.
Although it is still a shaky situation, but at least the violence has been halted and new plans are being worked out. THAT is so hopeful to see!
I hope Kofi Annan will continue to mediate between the two leaders and help further bridge the gap.

Perhaps Kofi should offer his skills to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict!! Anything US brokered doesn't hold, because the US is not impartial!! (Just a thought while I sip my coffee)

Read all here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7270379.stm
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Deal-broker Annan leaves Kenya

Former United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan has left Kenya after helping secure a deal between the country's rival political leaders.


We want Kenya to return to the old Kenya: stable, peaceful, prosperous and welcoming

Kofi Annan

A thousand people have been killed in violence since the poll.
The power-sharing deal gave opposition leader Raila Odinga the post of executive prime minister.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7273605.stm

I am really pleased to see what can be done without bombs and bulldozers!!
My applause to all three ... Annan and the two power rivals!
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Last Updated: Tuesday, 18 March 2008, 11:53 GMT


Kenya's MPs to usher in new era

Kenyan MPs are debating two bills that will entrench a power-sharing deal between President Mwai Kibaki and rival Raila Odinga into the constitution.

The amendment requires a two-thirds majority vote and will create a post of prime minister and two deputies.
President Kibaki is expected to appoint a cabinet with Mr Odinga as the prime minister following the changes.

A political deal was reached after violence erupted following December's disputed elections.
Some 1,500 died and 600,000 people were displaced during the violence and many thousands still haven't returned to their homes.

Both President Kibaki and Mr Odinga have urged the MPs to move quickly as they debate the constitutional changes which will bring the opposition Orange Democratic Movement (ODM) into a grand coalition.

Under the deal reached two weeks ago, President Kibaki's Party of National Unity (PNU) and the ODM will share power on a 50-50 basis.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7302631.stm
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Power sharing is a better solution than splitting and dividing the country. Let's wait and see how the new deal will work out. They have shown willingness and dedication to work together for the greater good of the country. It looks like Kofi Annan's mediation skills have done wonders! What a great example for the rest of the world!
I'm really glad!:smile: