Israel's barrier illegal: World court

[Paco]

But it is now clear that the wall is against international law. There is no longer any doubt of that, no room for argument. The wall is illegal.

Exactly what international law did the wall violate?

The court gives a laundry list of treaties and conventions and even cites letters from Israel to Yasser Arafat in its wordy but mostly incoherent discussion. Looks like a very weak argument if one reads it objectively.

 

[researchok]

Well, the ruling is advisory and non binding.

 

[Reverend Blair]

The wall, where it stands , is the issue.

Yes, that is the issue. They basically decided to build a fence on their neighbour's property. I've built a few fences in my life, you always make sure that they are on your own property before they go up.

Well, the ruling is advisory and non binding.

It is non-binding, but it forces the UN to deal with it while giving weight to the Palestinian argument.

 

[researchok]

The wall, where it stands , is the issue.

Yes, that is the issue. They basically decided to build a fence on their neighbour's property. I've built a few fences in my life, you always make sure that they are on your own property before they go up.

Well, the ruling is advisory and non binding.

It is non-binding, but it forces the UN to deal with it while giving weight to the Palestinian argument.

Agreed.

Your response was well put-- inasmuch as only 5-8 percent of the 'wall' is actually a wall. The rest is indeed are fences, moats etc.

The issue of placement is the real ssue of course.

The Israelis argue that the deprivation of property is no moral equivalent to the saving of lives, as the wall has shown it does. That is a fair and valid argument.

I think Israeli supreme court hit the nail on the head when they ruled that security 'expediency' is no excuse for the 'easy route' taken by the wall. Security is a concern, but it does not give the military carte blanche to construct it where it suits them without taking the palestinians into consideration. The miliray agreed and the wall will be rerouted as it should be.

The reality is of course- though not many will want to agree-- is that the wall went up in the first place because no one has clean hands. Unfortuantely, the middle east is played as a zero sum game-- an all other nothing deal, with regards to security, rights and even peace.

A very goo dfriend of mine, a Syrian once confided in me, that the proof was in the pudding-- that the Israelis and Arabs are indeed cousins, and like in any family, each has to have the last word.

The truth as they say, is often spoken in jest.

 

[moghrabi]

Just minutes ago a suicide bomber injured or killed 10 Israels. Do you really think the wall will prevent such attacks. Only sitting around the table and abiding by UN resoultions will this end. As I said before, as long as the US is one-sided, more suicide bombers will go and do damage and then the Israeli jets will come and bomb few houses and the cycle continues. The people of the ME see that the US is the instigator of all of this as it is not playing a fair hand in this conflict. There is no pressure on Israel to abide by any rule of law.

Now the PA is helpless to control the suicide bombers. Any person who lost somebody, have no job, can't leave his house become a suicide bomber. Unless we give the palastinains a place to call home and have their own government, we will not see any peace.

 

[Reverend Blair]

The Israelis have taken many lives too, Research. They also continue to. The wall encourages violence, does not lessen it.

It's interesting...they built a similar wall in Dublin to keep the Catholics and Protestants away from each other. It encouraged violence there too, as I recall. Before that there was the Berlin wall. I don't recall than piece of...mortar and bricks...solving anything either. Even Hadrian's wall was seen as an affront by those on the wrong side of it. That's the problem with these things...they make things worse, not better.

 

[researchok]

The wall has already proven it has stopped terror considerably.

Your other question is more intersting, because it raises intersting issues.

Assume for a minute the Israelis sit down with the PA, and conclude an agreement.

What then happens re Hamas, Jihad, PFLP, etc? They have said they will not abide with a negotiated settlement. Then what?

The PA, in order to remain relevant and credible-- harder to do because of corruption, etc and Hamas, popular because of providing social services-- has to disarm the terror groups. Othewise, they come to the table as a paper tiger.

In addition, it is unlikely that negotiating with the PA will work till Arafat AND Sharon are gone.

Time does matter. There is another 'biological bomb' in the region besides the Arab birth rate.

Within the next 2 or 3 election cycles, a Sephardic Israeli Prime Minister will be a reality-- a reality the region may not want to face. The autocratic regimes have not left many Sephardic Jews with happy memories, to put it mildly. This unspoken of issue may, in the end, be the catalyst needed to finally make some real headway in the peace process.

Interstingly, related to that, have you read about Bashar Assads welcoming Syrian Jews into Syria for a visit? Seems theyve fixed up a lot of cemetaries as well. Got a lot of press play here.

Seems hes laying some groundwork. He's smarter than he looks-- its a shrewd move on his part.

 

[researchok]

The Israelis have taken many lives too, Research. They also continue to. The wall encourages violence, does not lessen it.

It's interesting...they built a similar wall in Dublin to keep the Catholics and Protestants away from each other. It encouraged violence there too, as I recall. Before that there was the Berlin wall. I don't recall than piece of...mortar and bricks...solving anything either. Even Hadrian's wall was seen as an affront by those on the wrong side of it. That's the problem with these things...they make things worse, not better.

True, Rev, true.

Problem is, lives lost were as a result of the Intifadah-- a self declared war.

Im not giving Israel a pass here-- as i said, nobody has clean hands-- no one does.

What I find surprising is how little attention is paid to criticizing te Israelis where they deserve it most-- the negotiations.

They conclude their negotiations in a way that if every Palestinian stayed indoors and didnt breathe, theyd STILL end up violating some proviso of an agreement. ( I will refarin from the obvious Jewish lawyer jokes).

Th efact is, Israel is a more mature and refined democracy, versus an inept autocratric regime with little to no experience actually governing.

In addition, corruption plays a role there too.

Ask yourself a question-- why havent the PA paraded little girls in school dresses to confront settler construction projects?

Answer: Most of the construction of the settlements is done by companies owned by PA higher ups and members.

Cementgate, an issue is now making its rounds in the Arab press and its opening some eyes, to be sure.

Ask Moghrabi about what went on in Lebanon (hes from the region-- Im sure he knows even better than I) with Hizbollah AND the Phalange in the south and trade/smuggling with Israel. The numbers were staggering.

 

[Spock]

Screw the U.N. The duty of the government of the State of Israel is to her citizens, not to the organization that declared Zionism to be racism.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Well my pointy earred friend, the UN is also the organisation that is first to speak out against hatred based on religion. It has also defending Israel's right to exist as a state.

Without the UN there is a pretty good chance that there would be no such thing as Israel today.

Screw those who would screw the UN.

 

[Spock]

The UN has not lifted one finger in the defense of Israel. They've passed numerous anti-Israel resolutions, including one making the absurd claim that Zionism is racism. Czechoslovakian fighter pilots deserve more credit for the continued existance of the Israeli state than the United Nations.

 

[Reverend Blair]

The anti-Israeli resolutions stem from the fact that Israel continually uses state terrorism as a weapon. Killing civilians and tearing down homes is not a way to reach a peace agreement. Collective punishment is a crime against humanity. If Israel doesn't want to have resolutions passed against it, it should follow the rules.

 

[Spock]

The anti-Israeli resolutions stem from the fact that Israel continually uses state terrorism as a weapon. Killing civilians and tearing down homes is not a way to reach a peace agreement. Collective punishment is a crime against humanity. If Israel doesn't want to have resolutions passed against it, it should follow the rules.

The anti-Israeli resolutions stem from the virulent anti-Semitism and anti-democracticism present in so many UN member states. Countries like North Korea and Syria have no business making "the Rules."

Israel does not target citizens and only demolishes buildings used by or to support terrorists. Israel is faced not merely with constant terrorism, but a very real and omnipresent threat to her very existence. If the international community doesn't like the measures necessary for Israel to take to ensure her continued existance as a nation, and the Jewish people as a group in the Middle East, then they should take action to end the intifada, rather than merely hurling anti-Semetic ephitats at the only democratic nation in the region.