Israel and the Guatanamo mentality

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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We all know the world would be a better place without Hezbollah and better yet the perception of the need for such organizations. We're reminded of the former on a daily basis by the stovepipe media so I won't dwell on it.

Maybe if Harper could get his head out of his Nation-state ruling ass long enough he'd realize there's two sides to the story.

Secrets Of Unit 1391

June 28 issue - Sometimes a country's darkest secrets have a way of surfacing in the most offhanded manner. Gad Kroizer, an Israeli historian, was researching old British police buildings when he stumbled on a 70-year-old map drawn by a government architect. The map showed the location of 62 police compounds built by the British in Palestine in the late 1930s and early 1940s where both Arabs and Jews who agitated against Britain's occupation were interrogated. What caught Kroizer's eye was a camp called Meretz, which he had not seen on any contemporary Israeli map or read about in any modern writing on security compounds in the Jewish state. "There was a discrepancy between the map I had and the lists I'd been looking at," says Kroizer, who lives in Jerusalem and teaches at Bar-Ilan University. "I started putting two and two together."

What Kroizer had discovered and later footnoted in an academic paper (published in the March 2004 issue of Cathedra, circulation: 1,500) was the location of an ultrasecret jail where Israel has held Arabs in total seclusion for years, barred visits by the Red Cross and allegedly tortured inmates. Known as 1391, the facility is used as an interrogation center by a storied unit of Israel's military intelligence, whose members—all Arabic speakers—are trained to wring confessions from the toughest militants. According to Arabs who've been imprisoned in 1391, some of the methods are reminiscent of Abu Ghraib: nudity as a humiliation tactic, compromising photographs, sleep deprivation. In a few cases, at least, interrogators at 1391 appear to have gone beyond Israel's own hair-splitting distinction between torture and what a state commission referred to in 1987 as "moderate physical pressure."
...
But at least one former inmate at 1391 says the comparison to Abu Ghraib is fitting. Mustapha Dirani was brought to the facility after being abducted by Israeli commandos from his home in Lebanon in 1994. Israel believed Dirani knew the whereabouts of a missing airman, Ron Arad, and wanted to glean information quickly, while he was still stunned from the kidnapping. Dirani, who returned to Lebanon five months ago in a prisoner swap, said in a phone interview that he was raped by a soldier in those first days at 1391 and sodomized by an interrogator he identified as George. His civil suit against the state for more than $1 million in damages is scheduled to start in January. "It's the same style as in Abu Ghraib. They take advantage of the fact that Arabs and Muslims are culturally conservative," says Dirani, who spent eight years at 1391 but was never tried for a crime. In what might look to some people like a foreshadowing of Abu Ghraib, Dirani said in an affidavit four years ago that he was interrogated naked for days and photographed repeatedly
...

rah rah Steve. hopefully its only certain foreigners that you think need to be prioritized when it comes to human rights.

Don't forget your rulebook on the way the press conference once Rice gives you the nod on the call for a ceasefire.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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hmph

I guess its not something you have to take into account if you'd rather believe life began July 12, 2006.
 

SaintLucifer

Electoral Member
Jul 10, 2006
324
0
16
BitWhys said:
We all know the world would be a better place without Hezbollah and better yet the perception of the need for such organizations. We're reminded of the former on a daily basis by the stovepipe media so I won't dwell on it.

Maybe if Harper could get his head out of his Nation-state ruling ass long enough he'd realize there's two sides to the story.

Secrets Of Unit 1391

June 28 issue - Sometimes a country's darkest secrets have a way of surfacing in the most offhanded manner. Gad Kroizer, an Israeli historian, was researching old British police buildings when he stumbled on a 70-year-old map drawn by a government architect. The map showed the location of 62 police compounds built by the British in Palestine in the late 1930s and early 1940s where both Arabs and Jews who agitated against Britain's occupation were interrogated. What caught Kroizer's eye was a camp called Meretz, which he had not seen on any contemporary Israeli map or read about in any modern writing on security compounds in the Jewish state. "There was a discrepancy between the map I had and the lists I'd been looking at," says Kroizer, who lives in Jerusalem and teaches at Bar-Ilan University. "I started putting two and two together."

What Kroizer had discovered and later footnoted in an academic paper (published in the March 2004 issue of Cathedra, circulation: 1,500) was the location of an ultrasecret jail where Israel has held Arabs in total seclusion for years, barred visits by the Red Cross and allegedly tortured inmates. Known as 1391, the facility is used as an interrogation center by a storied unit of Israel's military intelligence, whose members—all Arabic speakers—are trained to wring confessions from the toughest militants. According to Arabs who've been imprisoned in 1391, some of the methods are reminiscent of Abu Ghraib: nudity as a humiliation tactic, compromising photographs, sleep deprivation. In a few cases, at least, interrogators at 1391 appear to have gone beyond Israel's own hair-splitting distinction between torture and what a state commission referred to in 1987 as "moderate physical pressure."
...
But at least one former inmate at 1391 says the comparison to Abu Ghraib is fitting. Mustapha Dirani was brought to the facility after being abducted by Israeli commandos from his home in Lebanon in 1994. Israel believed Dirani knew the whereabouts of a missing airman, Ron Arad, and wanted to glean information quickly, while he was still stunned from the kidnapping. Dirani, who returned to Lebanon five months ago in a prisoner swap, said in a phone interview that he was raped by a soldier in those first days at 1391 and sodomized by an interrogator he identified as George. His civil suit against the state for more than $1 million in damages is scheduled to start in January. "It's the same style as in Abu Ghraib. They take advantage of the fact that Arabs and Muslims are culturally conservative," says Dirani, who spent eight years at 1391 but was never tried for a crime. In what might look to some people like a foreshadowing of Abu Ghraib, Dirani said in an affidavit four years ago that he was interrogated naked for days and photographed repeatedly
...

rah rah Steve. hopefully its only certain foreigners that you think need to be prioritized when it comes to human rights.

Don't forget your rulebook on the way the press conference once Rice gives you the nod on the call for a ceasefire.

One historian and you take his word as law? Where's the proof? You also take the word of a former 'inmate'. I could easily create a map here in Canada and claim there was once an evil concentration camp where we tortured inmates in the hope of gleaning information. Why has there been no outcry over Mr. Kroizer's 'discovery'? Where are those Israelis denying this crap? You take the words of Mr. Kroizer and Mr. Dirani? Two people after all that time? No one else to back their claims? Why only two people? Surely the 'concentration camp' had more victims yes? How did Mr. Dirani get out? Where was he living when he was 'interviewed'? Why had he not said anything before? Surely he could have scored propaganda points with his story yes? Why did he not? Now don't tell me he was afraid for his life because why would he suddenly gain courage now?

The entire post is bullshit and you know it. Never happened.
 

youmny

New Member
Jul 19, 2006
5
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1
SaintLucifer you obviously like to believe what suits you and discard the information that don't. Try to look for answers on the internet. There is plenty of articles... This story is well known worldwide and it is not new.
 

SaintLucifer

Electoral Member
Jul 10, 2006
324
0
16
Re: RE: Israel and the Guatanamo mentality

youmny said:
SaintLucifer you obviously like to believe what suits you and discard the information that don't. Try to look for answers on the internet. There is plenty of articles... This story is well known worldwide and it is not new.

It is nothing more than propaganda and you know it. How is it that 'atrocities' :roll: occurred at Abu Gharaib and Guantanamo the world knows about it. This camp in Israel as mentioned in the article was completely unknown all those years. Once again I ask why is that prisoner who spoke out about it speaking only now? When Abu Gharaib and Guantanamo occurred why was he silent? I will tell you why. It never happened. Propaganda. Pure and simple.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet? Do you know how many articles I have seen which claim jets never flew into the World Trade Center? Some people believe that but it does not make it true.
 

sanch

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2005
647
0
16
Re: RE: Israel and the Guatanamo mentality

SaintLucifer said:
youmny said:
SaintLucifer you obviously like to believe what suits you and discard the information that don't. Try to look for answers on the internet. There is plenty of articles... This story is well known worldwide and it is not new.

It is nothing more than propaganda and you know it. How is it that 'atrocities' :roll: occurred at Abu Gharaib and Guantanamo the world knows about it. This camp in Israel as mentioned in the article was completely unknown all those years. Once again I ask why is that prisoner who spoke out about it speaking only now? When Abu Gharaib and Guantanamo occurred why was he silent? I will tell you why. It never happened. Propaganda. Pure and simple.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet? Do you know how many articles I have seen which claim jets never flew into the World Trade Center? Some people believe that but it does not make it true.

I don’t know if these questions are just a crude attempt at being facetious or if you’re this disconnected from what is going on in the world. It doesn’t sound as if you’ve traveled much yet you have these grandiose opinions. You may want to read the article because from your comments it does not appear that you bothered to do this before you began your rant.
 

SaintLucifer

Electoral Member
Jul 10, 2006
324
0
16
Re: RE: Israel and the Guatanamo mentality

sanch said:
SaintLucifer said:
youmny said:
SaintLucifer you obviously like to believe what suits you and discard the information that don't. Try to look for answers on the internet. There is plenty of articles... This story is well known worldwide and it is not new.

It is nothing more than propaganda and you know it. How is it that 'atrocities' :roll: occurred at Abu Gharaib and Guantanamo the world knows about it. This camp in Israel as mentioned in the article was completely unknown all those years. Once again I ask why is that prisoner who spoke out about it speaking only now? When Abu Gharaib and Guantanamo occurred why was he silent? I will tell you why. It never happened. Propaganda. Pure and simple.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet? Do you know how many articles I have seen which claim jets never flew into the World Trade Center? Some people believe that but it does not make it true.

I don’t know if these questions are just a crude attempt at being facetious or if you’re this disconnected from what is going on in the world. It doesn’t sound as if you’ve traveled much yet you have these grandiose opinions. You may want to read the article because from your comments it does not appear that you bothered to do this before you began your rant.

Oh wise traveller of the world please educate me! I know nothing because I have never set foot in Israel. Oh please wise traveller mr. know-everything guy! I wish to learn from the wisdom that you so politely display for my benefit!
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
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SaintLucifer said:
One historian and you take his word as law? Where's the proof? You also take the word of a former 'inmate'. I could easily create a map here in Canada and claim there was once an evil concentration camp where we tortured inmates in the hope of gleaning information. Why has there been no outcry over Mr. Kroizer's 'discovery'? Where are those Israelis denying this crap? You take the words of Mr. Kroizer and Mr. Dirani? Two people after all that time? No one else to back their claims? Why only two people? Surely the 'concentration camp' had more victims yes? How did Mr. Dirani get out? Where was he living when he was 'interviewed'? Why had he not said anything before? Surely he could have scored propaganda points with his story yes? Why did he not? Now don't tell me he was afraid for his life because why would he suddenly gain courage now?

The entire post is bullshit and you know it. Never happened.

you wanna be a shark you should learn to smell bait.

here you go
Israel court lifts prison secrecy (BBC Dec 2003)

but you can carry the cause by believing the denials and excuses if you like. no skin off my teeth. what matters is what the Lebanese think and I would suspect they are much closer to the truth than you or I would ever choose to be.
 

SaintLucifer

Electoral Member
Jul 10, 2006
324
0
16
BitWhys said:
SaintLucifer said:
One historian and you take his word as law? Where's the proof? You also take the word of a former 'inmate'. I could easily create a map here in Canada and claim there was once an evil concentration camp where we tortured inmates in the hope of gleaning information. Why has there been no outcry over Mr. Kroizer's 'discovery'? Where are those Israelis denying this crap? You take the words of Mr. Kroizer and Mr. Dirani? Two people after all that time? No one else to back their claims? Why only two people? Surely the 'concentration camp' had more victims yes? How did Mr. Dirani get out? Where was he living when he was 'interviewed'? Why had he not said anything before? Surely he could have scored propaganda points with his story yes? Why did he not? Now don't tell me he was afraid for his life because why would he suddenly gain courage now?

The entire post is bullshit and you know it. Never happened.

you wanna be a shark you should learn to smell bait.

here you go
Israel court lifts prison secrecy (BBC Dec 2003)

but you can carry the cause by believing the denials and excuses if you like. no skin off my teeth. what matters is what the Lebanese think and I would suspect they are much closer to the truth than you or I would ever choose to be.

This reminds me of the many Red Cross articles I had read claiming prisoners at Guantanamo were beaten and forced to starve. To refute these claims the Americans allowed UN reporters to visit. Not only did the prisoners have not a single mark upon their person but at first the reporters gasped when the prisoners' clothing was taken away and dumped into the nearest trash bin. The reason? The prisoners were all overweight! They had gained weight! How is this possible if they were being starved into submission? Why did the prison toss the clothes? They had brought in brand-spanking-new clothing to wear as a replacement. What other shocking treatment at Guantanamo? Brand-new Qu'rans! The Red Cross clearly lied to the public in order to gain favour with their lefty friends and the Muslims of this world. I would suggest that post about Israel's prisons is doing exactly the same thing.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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Your response reminds me that cognative dissonance knows no bounds. First you deny the place even existed now you that you no longer can you defend the goings-on within its walls.

I don't know what went on in there. The fact there is an "in there" at all is appalling enough and undoubtedly has added to the legacy of the mess that is the Middle East. Maybe in your world holding prisoners in secret prisons for 8 years without charges is acceptable as long as you're a "good guy", but not in mine.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
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all I seem to hear is the pitter-patter of little troll feet abandoning another thread. 8O