dancing-loon ,
why , did you have some saintly experience?
I hope that "Saint" wasn't a rapist!!
why , did you have some saintly experience?
Is prayer of any value?
- Thread starter china
- Start date
Dear Goamn
I am not denying God - it would be foolish to do so. Only the man who does not know reality indulges in meaningless words. The man who says he knows, does not know; the man who is experiencing reality from moment to moment has no means of communicating that reality.Please understand .
Belief is a denial of truth, belief hinders truth; to believe in God is not to find God. Neither the believer nor the non-believer will find God; because reality is the unknown, and your belief or non-belief in the unknown is merely a self-projection and therefore not real. I know you believe and I know it has very little meaning in your life. There are many people who believe; millions believe in God and take consolation. First of all, why do you believe? You believe because it gives you satisfaction, consolation, hope, and you say it gives significance to life. Actually your belief has very little significance, because you believe and exploit, you believe and kill, you believe in a universal God and murder each other. The rich man also believes in God; he exploits ruthlessly, accumulates money, and then builds a temple or becomes a philanthropist.
The men who dropped the atomic bomb on Hirosh1ma said that God was with them; those who flew from England to destroy Germany said that God was their co-pilot.The people who say they believe in God have destroyed half the world and the world is in complete misery. Through religious intolerance there are divisions of people as believers and non-believers, leading to religious wars. It indicates how extraordinarily politically-minded you are.
Is belief in God "a powerful incentive to better living"? Why do you want an incentive to better living? Surely, your incentive must be your own desire to live cleanly and simply, must it not ,not because someone else ;church or what ever tells you .If you look to an incentive you are not interested in making life possible for all, you are merely interested in your incentive, which is different from mine - and we will quarrel over the incentive. If we live happily together not because we believe in God but because we are human beings, then we will share the entire means of production in order to produce things for all. Through lack of intelligence we accept the idea of a super-intelligence which we call `God; but this `God', this super-intelligence, is not going to give us a better life. What leads to a better life is intelligence; and there cannot be intelligence if there is belief, if there are class divisions, if the means of production are in the hands of a few, if there are isolated nationalities and sovereign governments. All this obviously indicates lack of intelligence and it is the lack of intelligence that is preventing a better living, not non-belief in God.
You all believe in different ways, but your belief has no reality whatsoever. Reality is what you are, what you do, what you think, and your belief in God is merely an escape from your monotonous, stupid and cruel life. Furthermore, belief invariably divides people: there is the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Christian, the communist, the socialist, the capitalist and so on. Belief, idea, divides; it never brings people together. You may bring a few people together in a group but that group is opposed to another group. Ideas and beliefs are never unifying; on the contrary, they are separative, disintegrating and destructive. Therefore your belief in God is really spreading misery in the world; though it may have brought you momentary consolation, in actuality it has brought you more misery and destruction in the form of wars, famines, class divisions and the ruthless action of separate individuals. So your belief has no validity at all. If you really believed in God, if it were a real experience to you, then your face would have a smile; you would not be destroying human beings.
I am not denying God - it would be foolish to do so. Only the man who does not know reality indulges in meaningless words. The man who says he knows, does not know; the man who is experiencing reality from moment to moment has no means of communicating that reality.Please understand .
Belief is a denial of truth, belief hinders truth; to believe in God is not to find God. Neither the believer nor the non-believer will find God; because reality is the unknown, and your belief or non-belief in the unknown is merely a self-projection and therefore not real. I know you believe and I know it has very little meaning in your life. There are many people who believe; millions believe in God and take consolation. First of all, why do you believe? You believe because it gives you satisfaction, consolation, hope, and you say it gives significance to life. Actually your belief has very little significance, because you believe and exploit, you believe and kill, you believe in a universal God and murder each other. The rich man also believes in God; he exploits ruthlessly, accumulates money, and then builds a temple or becomes a philanthropist.
The men who dropped the atomic bomb on Hirosh1ma said that God was with them; those who flew from England to destroy Germany said that God was their co-pilot.The people who say they believe in God have destroyed half the world and the world is in complete misery. Through religious intolerance there are divisions of people as believers and non-believers, leading to religious wars. It indicates how extraordinarily politically-minded you are.
Is belief in God "a powerful incentive to better living"? Why do you want an incentive to better living? Surely, your incentive must be your own desire to live cleanly and simply, must it not ,not because someone else ;church or what ever tells you .If you look to an incentive you are not interested in making life possible for all, you are merely interested in your incentive, which is different from mine - and we will quarrel over the incentive. If we live happily together not because we believe in God but because we are human beings, then we will share the entire means of production in order to produce things for all. Through lack of intelligence we accept the idea of a super-intelligence which we call `God; but this `God', this super-intelligence, is not going to give us a better life. What leads to a better life is intelligence; and there cannot be intelligence if there is belief, if there are class divisions, if the means of production are in the hands of a few, if there are isolated nationalities and sovereign governments. All this obviously indicates lack of intelligence and it is the lack of intelligence that is preventing a better living, not non-belief in God.
You all believe in different ways, but your belief has no reality whatsoever. Reality is what you are, what you do, what you think, and your belief in God is merely an escape from your monotonous, stupid and cruel life. Furthermore, belief invariably divides people: there is the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Christian, the communist, the socialist, the capitalist and so on. Belief, idea, divides; it never brings people together. You may bring a few people together in a group but that group is opposed to another group. Ideas and beliefs are never unifying; on the contrary, they are separative, disintegrating and destructive. Therefore your belief in God is really spreading misery in the world; though it may have brought you momentary consolation, in actuality it has brought you more misery and destruction in the form of wars, famines, class divisions and the ruthless action of separate individuals. So your belief has no validity at all. If you really believed in God, if it were a real experience to you, then your face would have a smile; you would not be destroying human beings.
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Heavens, no!
But if this Saint says, '"Love and do what you will". A rapist loves his victim.... an incestuous father loves his daughter, and both do what they will with their victim.
That's what sprung into my head when I read your posting.
True love, of course, will not hurt another being. Who here on earth is capable of expressing true love? You, China?;-)
dancing-loon ,
That Saint who said ..."Love and do what you will" was a Catholic author of Confession ,City of God ...(c'mon Sanctus -help me.)think he was a Bishop.
That Saint who said ..."Love and do what you will" was a Catholic author of Confession ,City of God ...(c'mon Sanctus -help me.)think he was a Bishop.
dancing -loon
It is of great value to me....... You say it is not for you. Therefore I must conclude it is a personal choice because of personal expectations and the personal desire of the outcome, placed upon "prayer".
One might say precisely for that very reason. Although not all messes may be solved, some must merely be accepted.
I do not use prayer as a means of escape but rather as a means of delving deeper into the problem.
That's quite the judgement statement. It would imply you have the ability to fully understand the heart, mind, desire, and motivation of all who pray.
I think you do not.
One may love and be loved..... that does not bring enough enlightenment to produce intelligence or happy order.
There are many things involved in enlightenment and love is not necessarily even present.
So, are you implying he is capable of true love? OR are you hinting of something many Catholic priests have indulged in? If that's the case his statement would be worthless!;-);-)
I think many people are capable of exrpessing true love..... at least that has been my experience.
Sal
Quoting china Is it of any value to pray to the Great Intelligences, God whatever , for help in our daily life? Don't think so, I will explain what I mean. What causes misery, conflict, suffering in our daily life? Traditions, selfish moral values, impositions of vested interest, attachment, acquisitiveness: these create conditions which prevent human happiness.
You are correct Sal,my choices are my choices ; not yours ,Curiosities ,dark beavers or my mothers ;obviously we all make our own choices.
Your conclusion about me placing some expectations and desires on the prayer is senseless .
As I have mentioned above I don't place any intelligent value in praying.(perhaps you have not read that part).
Quote: And what is the use of praying to someone when you, through your own intelligence, can alter all this awful mess?
And why not? explain .
What is that that we have to accept Sal.
Why the mess which is our creation can not be 'cleaned by us? Explain.
Quote: Being unwilling to face suffering, we try to escape through prayer.
As I have stated I don't pray and I don't have any problems to "delve deeper into" so I don't know what you are saying . Explain
Quote: You may escape momentarily, but the strength of your desire asserts itself again, plunging the mind into misery and confusion. So what matters is, not whether it is of value to pray, but to awaken that intelligence which alone will solve our human miseries. A mind and a heart that are hardened, that have limited themselves through their egotistic fears, pray.
My mind /heart? I do .And I will explain ;after you will explain your accusations .That's quite the judgement statement. It would imply you have the ability to fully understand the heart, mind, desire, and motivation of all who pray.
I think you do not.
Quote: But if there were love, then you would free the mind from its own egotistic fears, and this alone can bring about intelligence and happy order.
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So then we agree that there is not only one correct or right way to go here, right?
I do not believe that we have the power to clean up all of our messes. Sometimes life hands us things which we can not trancend.
There is a woman in my building who over the years has had so many different types of cancer, it is mind blowing. She must accept that genetically her body for whatever reason, seems to breed cancer cells.
Also we are not all born equal. I had good loving parents. They taught me to respect myself, know my boundaries. I have an average IQ....... not everyone is born with such blessings. We do not start from a place of equality and we do not finish in a place of equality. Each has their own trials to deal with.
Okay this is a good point. YOU have no issues to delve into. Others do. One of my girlfriends deals with clinical depression on a daily basis. Her father and brother both committed suicide....... She has issues she must delve into on a daily basis....there are unknow triggers which can crop up.
She does exceptionally well. If you met her you would NEVER guess what she copes with.
I said:
To which you replied:
I do not believe anyone can fully know the mind, heart, or desire of a stranger let alone a group of strangers.
Me:
[/QUOTE Name ONE .[/quote]
Self awareness would be one.
Well me either China......we have something in common right off.
But um, I think this was Loon's post...
I don't "pray". In my POV there is no "higher power" to pray to. I have utilized a few methods of solving problems, such as meditation for example. Conceptualisation of a problem, submitting it to my subconscious, and it's subsequent aid in forming a decision is quite useful. My consciousness deals with how to implement the decision.
L Gilbert.
Thanks for the post.
Thanks for the post.
Precisely L G.But how hard it is to be patient and wait for the answer.Right away our Ego wants to deal with the problem .
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Neither do I,Saly though I am aware of my own make up .
Quote: One may love and be loved..... that does not bring enough enlightenment to produce intelligence or happy order.
There are many things involved in enlightenment and love is not necessarily even present.
You:
[/QUOTEThere are many things involved in enlightenment and love is not necessarily even present.
You:
Name ONE .
Can't be aware of yourself without realizing that you are a part of all ,Love.