Iraq sovereignty, how will we know?

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
4,508
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38
Canada
American voice. This guy been attacking me for weeks. I ask you to read previous threads and posts and you can see his weakness.
 

Darkgrammer

Nominee Member
Your post was interesting-- alot like michael moore-- interesting, but not entirely accurate.

Michael Moore is hated by many for speaking the truth. Somehow I see a connection here. And hell Michael Moore is Funny.

And yet again the Proof is right on your face (BIG PICS), and still Mr.Analyst can't see it. Must be all those Pepsi Commercial, eh?

Sigh.. :roll:
How thick can you get? :roll:
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
4,508
4
38
Canada
More newspaper articles wriiten to fit his idea of a just war. The war is unjust and the whole world was against it. The US had no mandate to go to Iraq. Saddam had noo relation with Bin Laden or 911. Iraq was doing much better before the war that it is now. You just have to wait and see what is going to happen now that this puppet administration is in place. I feel sorry for these sildiers getting stuck in the middle trying to protect the interests of the US and getting killed for it. If it was a legit war, I will feel good that they are dying for something noble. But not this time my friend. This war is only for the Bush family and his half-alive Vice president to make more money.
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
4,508
4
38
Canada
Can't get any thicker than that Darkgrammer. Maybe we should ship him to Iraq for few days and see reality with his own eyes rather than getting it through Pepsi TV ads.
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
4,508
4
38
Canada
You also hate Moore for telling the truth. It is there for all to see. Nothing cut. I have seen it and he is very truthful. I think truth hurts when it comes to you because you are living in disney land - mindwise.
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
4,508
4
38
Canada
I did. More of your poisionus lies written by people like you who can not think for themselves. I read and I analyze. I see and I ask, I hear and I inquire. Bottom line it is you that have to analyze the truth and be fed to you with a spoon.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
Darkgrammer said:
Your post was interesting-- alot like michael moore-- interesting, but not entirely accurate.

Michael Moore is hated by many for speaking the truth. Somehow I see a connection here. And hell Michael Moore is Funny.

And yet again the Proof is right on your face (BIG PICS), and still Mr.Analyst can't see it. Must be all those Pepsi Commercial, eh?

Sigh.. :roll:
How thick can you get? :roll:

Michael Moore was right-- and honest?

See below, Christpher Hitchens-- about as left as left can get.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723


http://slate.msn.com/id/2102859/
 

Darkgrammer

Nominee Member
Fact 1. Bush likes to say that his enormous tax cuts that give hundreds of billions of dollars to America's wealthiest people are job-creation programs. But America has bled millions of jobs since Bush's tax cuts became law, so it's time to try something new. Bush's new tactic? Beg China and Japan to increase the value of their currencies, which will make American manufacturers more competitive. But Bush has nothing to offer in return -- and has done little to make other countries inclined to offer him favors. Instead of making pointless pleas to other countries, maybe Bush should come up with an economic plan that would actually create jobs instead of just putting more money in the pockets of those who need it least.

Fact 2. Colin Powell's speech to the United Nations was a watershed moment in the run-up to the Iraq war. Powell's reputation as a moderate and credible voice made the evidence he presented about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction seem that much more impressive. But as State Department employee Greg Thielmann reveals, it was nothing but twisted and misleading evidence, trumped up to sell Bush's Iraq war.

Fact 3. Sure, species extinction is a bad thing, but is it as bad as, say, not having a wastebasket made out of real ivory? That's the position of the Bush administration, anyway, which lifts restrictions on killing and trading endangered species. But at least it's only foreign animals. Who cares about those animals in other countries?

Fact 4. Is the institution of marriage in danger? Because as far as I can tell, people are still getting married. But President Bush apparently thinks marriage is in dire need of protection, and hops into action by declaring "Marriage Protection Week." Bush, of course, thinks that marriage needs protection from gay couples, who want to attack marriage by, uh, getting married. I'm not quite sure how that works, but Bush must know what he's doing, right?

Fact 5. The White House likes to tout President Bush as a "strong leader." If there's even a modicum of truth to that, Bush already knows who leaked Valerie Plame's identity as an undercover CIA agent. But when asked, he refuses to do anything to reveal the truth, instead just claiming, "I want to know the truth," and passing the buck (as usual) to the Justice Department.

Fact 6. When Joseph Wilson revealed that the Bush administration had used false intelligence to justify the war in Iraq, a smear campaign against him was predictable. But it was impossible to predict that the White House would reveal that Wilson's wife was an undercover CIA agent who worked on weapons of mass destruction -- supposedly the reason we went to war in the first place -- just to get back at Wilson.

Fact 7. Traditionally, Medicare benefits go to all Medicare recipients. But President Bush wants millions of low-income seniors to lose out on any new prescription drug benefit. He would rather those seniors rely on the states' Medicaid benefits, which vary from state to state (and year to year) and worsen the states' already severe fiscal crises -- which Bush has made worse with his enormous tax cuts.

Fact 8. Conservative politicians like to reduce law enforcement to simple "tough on crime" platitudes. But the actual enforcement of law and prosecution of crime can't be reduced to simple black-and-white thinking. That's why prosecutors ought to have discretion over charges they file. But Attorney General John Ashcroft issues new guidelines forcing federal prosecutors to file the most serious charges possible in every case, because that "tough on crime" stance still looks great in the papers.

Fact 9. Seriously, can we just stop it with the global warming denial already? I know it's inconvenient for conservative ideologues, but facts are facts. Actually, facts aren't facts if you work for the Bush administration, because facts can always be covered up. And when it comes to global warming, that's just what this administration does.

Fact 10. Back in 2001, the administration released an energy policy that was filled with gifts to President Bush and Vice President Cheney's friends in the energy industry. So it would hardly be surprising to find out that the energy industry dominated the meetings at which the policy was written. But Cheney goes to the Supreme Court to try and keep records of his energy task force's meetings secret, simply because of the administration's distaste for open government.

Fact 11. Why should we pass tax cuts for the rich? The September 11 attacks. Why should we clear cut forests and let polluters write environmental policy? The September 11 attacks. Why has America lost millions of jobs since Bush took office? The September 11 attacks. Next thing you know, he'll be saying we went to war with Iraq because of the September 11 attacks! Nah, he wouldn't go that far...

Fact 12. President Bush celebrates the second anniversary of the September 11 attacks by calling for an expansion of the Patriot Act, which restricts civil liberties in the name of security. But at least he renames the day "Patriots' Day," so we all know that we're bad Americans for valuing our freedom.

Fact 13. President Bush likes to praise programs in front of the camera and then slash them when the camera is turned off. One good example is the Energy Star program, which Bush touts (correctly) as an effective environmental program, providing $70 in benefits for every one dollar spent. But the EPA shifts funds so that the Energy Star program doesn't get the funds Congress intended for it to get. When Bush praises a program, watch out -- it maybe destined for big cuts.

Fact 14. There's nothing funny about this at all. After the September 11 attacks, the EPA told New Yorkers it was safe to live and work near Ground Zero. It turns out that under White House pressure, the EPA lied about the data it had and omitted important information about the quality of the air and what New Yorkers needed to do to stay healthy. It may take years to see the effects -- possibly birth defects or increased cancer rates -- of what may be Bush's worst lie yet.

Fact 15. You would think that in the wake of an enormous power outage that paralyzed much of the northeast United States and southeast Canada, it wouldn't be difficult to unite behind a plan to upgrade the power grid. But President Bush opposes his own handpicked chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission and sides with (surprise, surprise) the energy industry to oppose the plan. Instead, the administration thinks that more deregulation is the solution, even though deregulation is largely the problem in the first place. A deregulated power industry has no financial incentive to pay the costs of upgrading the grid. Apparently, Bush hasn't quite learned the lessons from Enron that he needs to learn yet.

Fact 16. This one didn't last long, and it showed just how important it is to have open government. From the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the same folks who brought us "Total Information Awareness" (and, years ago, the Internet), comes a project that would encourage investors to risk real money against the possibility of future events, like the overthrow of Jordan's king, or terrorist attacks. The idea would be to see whether such a system would have a predictive effect that would help us see world events before they happen. But the obvious ethical problems of essentially betting on chaos, death, and destruction forces the Pentagon to shut down the sickening project the day it becomes public.

Fact 17. Remember when President Bush's complaint with the weapons inspectors was that all their interviews were conducted in front of Iraqi government "minders"? Apparently he objected to the instance but likes the principle. When the independent commission (long opposed by Bush) investigating the attacks of September 11 interviews intelligence personnel, the Justice Department insists on having a "minder" in the room, chilling testimony before the commission. And that's just the tip of the Bush administration obstructionism iceberg. The commission complains of interference and noncooperation from all over the administration, noting that "problems that have arisen so far with the Department of Defense are becoming particularly serious."

Fact 18. Head Start is that rarest of gems: an effective and universally lauded educational program. So why mess with success, right? But instead of expanding this preschool program that has been proven to give children a jump on learning, President Bush proposes changing the specific federal outlays to block grants that will give states more "flexibility" to spend the money. Given that states are in their worst fiscal crises since World War II, it's likely that they'll stretch the money and direct as much as possible away from Head Start.

Fact 19. Radical conservative activists like the current President Bush a lot more than they did his father, and here's one reason why. Where Bush 41 put a moratorium on U.S. nuclear weapons tests in 1992, Bush 43 not only wants to resume tests, but wants to create entirely new kinds of nuclear weapons. Continuing with earlier efforts , the Bush administration argues for smaller nukes that are much more likely to be used in combat.

Fact 20. Bush is a Complete Idiot.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
moghrabi said:
Can't get any thicker than that Darkgrammer. Maybe we should ship him to Iraq for few days and see reality with his own eyes rather than getting it through Pepsi TV ads.

Fair enough.

And you can explain to the families of the victims found in the mass graves and the husbands, sons and brothers of the women who experienced saddams rape rooms why the US was wrong to get rid of Saddam.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
Another view

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39118


Thursday, June 24, 2004



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'Hatriotism' & Michael Moore: Turkish Muslim says 'Fahrenheit 911' wrong on liberation of Iraq

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Posted: June 24, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern



By Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner



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© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

He was lauded with a 20-minute standing ovation at the Cannes Film Festival. A.O. Scott of the New York Times calls his movie a "passionate expression of outraged patriotism." At the June showing of "Fahrenheit 911" before the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Science in Los Angeles, he received a standing ovation of over a minute.

And Michael Moore's most recent work spits in the face of my dead countrymen.

As yet another innocent person has their head severed by Islamic "extremists," Moore apparently glosses over the fact that democracy, in general – and America, specifically – is under attack. I am innately aware that Michael Moore is first and foremost a provocateur, and he thrives on controversy.


I am also sure he will smile gleefully at this op-ed piece, because I mention his film, which is free advertising. He has gone on record on his website as saying he hopes we will watch his movie, even if we disagree, because his facts and analysis are correct. He notes that he has a "dogged commitment to uncovering the facts."

I am not holding my breath. With the aforementioned facts in mind, I must still speak. Michael Moore has released the cinematic equivalent of a French kiss to all who hate America. He is the leading exponent of hatriotism.

"HATE-RIOTISM" describes the new breeze blowing through the American media. It is now "cool" and "relevant" to mock everything for which our soldiers are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Criticizing democracy and America has long been in vogue in continental Europe from those who look with disdain at American "naivete," while still lamenting the Islamic onslaught.

Now imported to our shores, hatriotism is the simplest way to get the growing contingent of professional protestors who populate television audiences to cheer: Mock America. Mock our involvement in Iraq. Mock President Bush ... and get rousing applause.

The only problem is ... America has freed my kinsmen.

I am a Persian Turkish immigrant raised as a Sunni Muslim, and in the interest of full disclosure, I must state that I left Islam in 1982, and became an American citizen. Yet, as I survey the current cultural landscape, I cannot help but be less than enthused when Michael Moore states that his film is a call to true patriotism.

The present conflict is not a war against Islam, and neither is it a "war for oil." In the previous six military endeavors, American troops sided with Muslims who were under attack, and there are much less extreme methods of garnering oil. This is a war of ideologies, and with "Fahrenheit 911," Moore clearly shows his.

His visual narrative of Lila Lipscombe, a Flint, Mich., mother who sent her sons to the military and "lives to regret it," as Roger Friedman of FOX News notes, is "unexpectedly poignant."

I wonder – was Moore equally moved when he heard of the honor killings which daily threatened the lives of Muslim women in Afghanistan? Was he equally as outraged at the female circumcision practices in my countrymen's lands, because it lessens the threat of adultery?

In fact, I wonder ... where were all the "hatriots" when our soldiers freed all the women of Afghanistan from the Taliban? Where were the feminists when our soldiers liberated the Afghan women to be educated for the first time in years?

The irony is, for all of their false bravado behind the First Amendment and their right to "free speech," the hatriots are exercising this right because American men and women shed their blood to afford them this right against those who would seek to oppress it. I would invite Michael Moore to my homeland to make a movie criticizing Turkish oppression and see what happens. The freedom he enjoys now was purchased with a dear price.

The central fact of the current controversy is the conflict between Islamic theocracy and American democracy. Islam has not now – nor has it ever – allowed religious freedom or freedom of expression. The best the Islamic republics can offer is "religious toleration." Based on the "Pact of Umar," religious toleration allows non-Muslims to enter Islamic republics, but they must pay a tax (jizyat). They can practice their faiths, but they cannot convert anyone from Islam. To do so means deportation ... or worse.

Further, Islamic prophecy foretells of worldwide conversion to Sharia law under Islam, and thus, those who are fighting against us are "holy warriors." In this instance, I would say our president is half right. He says we are not at war with Islam. I agree. However, a significant portion of Islam is in fact at war with us.

And Michael Moore is blind to it all.

The clearest definition of religious freedom and freedom of expression I can make is this – the religious freedom America offers means that I would fight and die for a Muslim's right to build a mosque in every city in America. It is precisely this freedom for which our soldiers are fighting.

In recent days, it has become fashionable for those like Moore to say, "I support the troops, but not the war." This is the equivalent to saying, "I support doctors but not surgery." The position they hold is ludicrous at best, and insulting at worst. When my brother – also a professor and my co-author of five books – and I came out in support of the Iraqi intervention, we began to be accosted by peace protestors when we spoke. I found this amusing.

Allow me to say it emphatically: I support the troops – and their mission.

Our soldiers – your sons and daughters – are fighting to preserve Michael Moore's freedom to produce such works that mock their very existence. I hope he realizes that. They are allowing my countrymen the right to freely express themselves without being stoned to death as a consequence. Or have their heads severed slowly while their executioners are chanting "Allah hu Akbar."

There is one final irony. There is a film producer who has worked for years, chasing down Michael Moore in an effort to interview him. The young man, named Michael Wilson, is making a documentary titled "Michael Moore Hates America." So far, Moore has dodged him at every turn. Anyone who knows cinema recognizes that this is the exact tactic Moore took in his film "Roger and Me," as he chased an automobile executive for an interview.

Do you see the paradox? Because Michael Moore is now in the mainstream of hatriotism, and now the young conservatives are the radicals, Moore has become his own worst nightmare. Michael Moore has become that which he mocked. He has become an aloof elite.

Count me among the radicals.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
moghrabi said:
I did. More of your poisionus lies written by people like you who can not think for themselves. I read and I analyze. I see and I ask, I hear and I inquire. Bottom line it is you that have to analyze the truth and be fed to you with a spoon.

Exactly WHAT 'poisionus lies'?
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
Many of the 'facts' presented don't hold up to scrutiny.

Just off the top of my head, Joseph Wilson, of Valerie Plume fame, has no ADMITTED there was an attempt to buy nuclear material. There is no evidence to backup the claim that Plumes 'outing' was by the WH.

Youre Enron analogy eludes me.

Anyway, if youll be around later, I can address the rest of your post-- gotta go into a meeting soon.
 

Darkgrammer

Nominee Member




Anyways I got to go keep mend of my forums, Nice chatting with you moghrabi.

I'll cya guys later I don't have time to speak to a wall. :roll:
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
Darkgrammer said:
I never said anything about getting rid of suddam was bad. I said the way he dealt with it, Thats why we have the UN you know, because he starting to remind me of Hitler when he didn't listen to the Leauge of Nations.

Thats a good argument, actually, not one I disagree with.

Nevertheless, there has not been one instance where UN intervention (by itself) has worked.

That's why Darfur remains a frightening prospect