Immigrant Assimilation

[DasFX]

Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

This leads me to my second point, what good is it to have a society where everybody acts the same, embraces the same values, culture, etc, etc, and the only distinguishing feature is the colour of their skin? It is one thing to assimilate/integrate, but it is another to just give up everything to be something else. I think
what makes Canada so great is the diversity that exists within it.

- I never suggested any form of assimilation such that people would compromise who they were. I am not suggesting everyone be the same. I am only talking about addition, not substraction.

One of the problems we face today is that some people can't tolerate the customs of other ethnic groups and some over-generalize a race based on the actions of a few bad people.

- This is human nature and will alway be a reality. Short of finding intelligent life in space, humans will always find a way to divide themselves.

You mentioned that many immigrants try to re-create their old country. I can understand why immigrants would want to do this.

- So can I, but that doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

It's not because they are racist or prejudice or whatever, it is because they are vulnerable and as they say there is safety in numbers. I've had a couple of girlfriends (and friends) that have come to Canada from a non-English speaking country. As I got to know them, I've found that there are certain individuals that prey on these new and naive immigrants. As you probably know, Canada is known for it's space and to get from one place to another, you will need a car at some point in time (as public transit can't take you everywhere). One of my gf's bought a rusty 1991 BMW that had a lot of issues for $12,000. I believe she overpaid. Had I known her at that time, I would have probably saved her some money, but because she was a new immigrant from a place where cars are more expensive (Taiwan) and not knowing anything about cars, she didn't know any better. I won't even go into how much she paid for her condo because that would just make me mad.

- Yes, and if your friend has integrated and assimilated more at the time she wouldn't have been taken advantage of. Perhaps if her English was better or something else it could have been avoided. Plus, it may not be due to race or immigrant status. Perhaps because she was a woman or young to whatever, you don't know for sure. Perhaps she shouldn't be so naive, perhaps it was a good lesson for her. I doubt she will be taken for again.

To me, having re-creations of old countries from different types of people is an advantage for Canada. It shows visitors to this country the different ethnic groups that exist within it and the history that it carries. When I was on vacation in Shanghai, one of the first places I visited was the Old Bund and the New Bund. What makes the Old Bund so interesting is because it was a replica of European culture... in China. I'm amazed when walking through the streets and looking around, you would never have guessed you were in China. Then there is the history behind it and how the Europeans took advantage of the Chinese during those days and how things have changed since then. This is the type of education I'm talking about. You can't deny and ignore the fact that there was rampant racism against the Chinese at that time, but the key to the experience is that things have changed since then... attitudes have changed. This is reinforced with the fact that by looking across the river you get a spectacular view of the New Bund. A sign of the new China that has moved past the problems of the past. The old with the new.

- I'm not advocating tearing down China Town or anything, I like visiting those places too, I just don't think it is the best situation for peoople new to the country. It limits their opportunity to learn.

In Vancouver, these old countries now are becoming an attraction for visitors. Tourism. We now have an historic Chinatown near downtown Vancouver, we have a new Chinatown in Richmond, we have an Indian section near 49th & Main, we have an Italian section near Commercial st, we have a Korean section on North Rd, I could go on and on... easy. Some of the advantages to all these different ethnic groups located in different areas is that it eases the transition for new immigrants from what they are used to, to what they should expect in Canada. I think it is a *big* mistake to just put immigrants right smack in the middle of a different culture. Not only will there be culture shock on both sides, it probably introduces the type of things that we all hate ... misconceptions, intolerance, over-genereralizatons, misunderstanding (all which leads to worse things like racism)... simply because their cultures are different and they don't understand why. Instead, what these old-countries do is help these new immigrants get settled in and learn the nuances of Canadian culture so that they don't get offended or whatever when they see something they don't understand. Unfortunately, some immigrants choose not to learn about Canada and I think it is their loss... not ours.

- Immigrants should take some of the responsible for their culture shock. They didn't do their homework prior to coming.

It always give me a great sense of patriotism when people of a different culture attempt to learn the traditions of another. We are all living under the same roof (Canada) so why not learn everything there is to learn about each other? It only makes us better not worse.

- I think so too, the problem I have is when people don't. Many immigrants hide and live in their little re-creation without getting out and seeing the other aspects of Canada.

Japanese people loudly sucking and slurping their noodles, we don't prejudge them as being rude because we understand that it is their culture.

- No, I don't we will get that far. There are certain accepted ways of doing things here. I would not advocate Japanese Canadians to suck and slurp outside their own home or in a Japanese restaurant.

 

[Ted]

Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

I work with immigrants and what I see are two types of mindsets coming to Canada. The first are people that chose Canada because of its reputation as a country where freedoms and civil rights are respected and differences are tolerated. They want to BE CANADIANS, while retaining their native culture.

The other group come to Canada because they can make a buck, educate the kids on the taxpayer's buck and let the system look after them when they are sick. They have no intention of becoming Canadian. All they want is the citizenship card. I know people that have been here for 12 years and they haven't been bothered to learn English or French, they only associate with their own kind. They have a foot in both countries, some are off in their home country working while their kids live unsupervised over here.

And not surprisingly, the first group faces more obstacles than the second when it comes to being approved by CIC.

I have friends that are 5th generation Canadian Chinese. They are discriminated against by the newer immigrants. They are called bananas - yellow on the outside, white on the inside. One friend tells me that if we could only understand Chinese, we would be horrified by the kinds of comments made on buses and in the streets about us stupid Canadians. If I make discriminatory statements about an ethnic group, it is called racism. They hear it, understand it and proceed against me. But when I am discriminated in Chinese or any other language, I don't understand it. I have no idea.

Everyone in this city knows that there are certain areas where the shops will give discounts off the posted price for Chinese people. If I did the same and gave discounts to whites only, I would rightly be called a racist.

My point is that I am proud to be a Canadian. If someone wants to immigrate to my beloved Canada, then they should put in the effort to live up to the responsibilities and make an effort to learn the language at least. But increasingly, there is no incentive to become Canadian because it is so easy to exist within a bubble with people from the home country.

I used to think Quebec was silly to get on that French only rant, but now I understand. This is Canada. My grandparents came here and HAD to learn English. They came because of all the countries on earth, they WANTED to live here and they became PROUD Canadians. They spoke their languages among friends from back home, but they also socialized and did business with Canadians that were not from their home country. This is the spirit that built this great country, but we are losing sight of that by catering to the politically correct multicultural agenda. Yes, diversity is one of the things that makes this a great country, but it is already starting to fragment into factions that define themselves according to their native country and race, and losing sight of the fact that we are CANADIANS FIRST.

 

[bletchley]

RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

I'd love to shut the damn doors on immigration. It's turning this country into a joke.

If you think Canadians like it, you should really open your eyes. Go to any small town in Canada and ask peope there if they like it. It was that scum Trudeau who wanted to get some extra greecey Liberal votes.

 

[Jay]

RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

Poll after poll shows that Canadians think we have to much immigration in this country.

The only people I hear begging for it are corporations saying we don't have enough ppl to do the work, yet we have a 7% unemployment rate.

Instead of the feds taking the EI money it should be going to the provinces as education money.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

Poll after poll shows that Canadians think we have to much immigration in this country.

The only people I hear begging for it are corporations saying we don't have enough ppl to do the work, yet we have a 7% unemployment rate.

Instead of the feds taking the EI money it should be going to the provinces as education money.

You know where I can find info on those polls Jay? I'm interested in them.

 

[Jay]

RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

I didn't find them. They were reported over time on CBC and other news channels. Sorry.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Assimilation of Immig

There have been as many polls showing just the opposite. The truth is that immgration helps to grow our economy. It always has.

Right now we are short of skilled and semi-skilled construction workers, engineers, and medical workers. Recent changes to training requirements should bring a lot of medical workers who are already here into the system.

Yes, we are short of strippers and farm workers too, but we prefer to use temporary visas to fill those positions, leaving the workers open to abuse.

 

[Ted]

Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

Right now we are short of skilled and semi-skilled construction workers, engineers, and medical workers.

This is not so. I have many friends that are welders, electricians, and labourers and they are out of work. There is no shortage of workers. There is a shortage of contractors that are willing to pay a fair wage for their labour.

Here in Vancouver, a lot of these contractors are hiring Mexicans to replace unemployed Canadians that will not work for $14 an hour. The Mexican thinks he has died and gone to heaven. Most of these workers have temporary status and will eventually have to return home.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Assimilation of Immig

Send them to Winnipeg, Ted. We've been short of electricians and plumbers here especially. A lot of that has to do with the way our apprenticeship programs work. Nobody wants level 1 and two apprentices, but they are screaming for journeymen and levels 3 and 4. They haven't figured out that they are creating the shortage themsleves and the government is afraid to intrduce any legislation that would effect small businesses.

That doesn't negate the fact that we have a shortage though. I hear Toronto is even worse (which is sucking even more people out of here).

 

[I think not]

Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

Hey Rev would you know if there is a difference for an electrician's rate of pay if working on a public works project?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Assimilation of Immig

I wouldn't know for sure. Most of the tradespeople I know are in residential work. Big projects usually require big companies, which tend to be unionized though.

 

[Machjo]

Greetings from China, Ted.

I have friends that are 5th generation Canadian Chinese. They are discriminated against by the newer immigrants. They are called bananas - yellow on the outside, white on the inside. One friend tells me that if we could only understand Chinese, we would be horrified by the kinds of comments made on buses and in the streets about us stupid Canadians. If I make discriminatory statements about an ethnic group, it is called racism. They hear it, understand it and proceed against me. But when I am discriminated in Chinese or any other language, I don't understand it. I have no idea.

Everyone in this city knows that there are certain areas where the shops will give discounts off the posted price for Chinese people. If I did the same and gave discounts to whites only, I would rightly be called a racist.

My point is that I am proud to be a Canadian. If someone wants to immigrate to my beloved Canada, then they should put in the effort to live up to the responsibilities and make an effort to learn the language at least. But increasingly, there is no incentive to become Canadian because it is so easy to exist within a bubble with people from the home country.

I used to think Quebec was silly to get on that French only rant, but now I understand. This is Canada. My grandparents came here and HAD to learn English. They came because of all the countries on earth, they WANTED to live here and they became PROUD Canadians. They spoke their languages among friends from back home, but they also socialized and did business with Canadians that were not from their home country. This is the spirit that built this great country, but we are losing sight of that by catering to the politically correct multicultural agenda. Yes, diversity is one of the things that makes this a great country, but it is already starting to fragment into factions that define themselves according to their native country and race, and losing sight of the fact that we are CANADIANS FIRST.

Greetings from China, Ted. You do have a few valid points, here. You mentionned racism, and yes, the Chinese can be just as racist as we are, although there are now some Chinese here in China who've started to organize to educate the public about it. And as for integration, certainly we need a common language just to communicate.

But now here's another problem. When a Canadian decides to move abroad for whatever reason, whether to have a better life (which I'd assume is rarely the case in a financial sense, though I suppose many otehr factors can determine 'quality of life' for differnet individuals) or whatever other reason, he's not likely to go to the same country every other Canadian wil go to, thus not threatening the local culture;diffent Canadians will go to different countries for different reasons. With the Chinese, on the other hand, nearly the whole 1.3 billion of them are only focussing on a small handful of countries, which inlude the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, Ireland, and for a small handful, South Africa. People are always asking me to help them go to those countries (though South Africa is a rarety), and when I mention to them that the University of Buenos Aires is looking for qualified Chinese teachers, or that some Polish universities are now trying to build bridges with China, or that the number of middle schools in Germany teaching Chinese is rapidly increasing, or that Algeria is currently looking for French-speaking Chinese to teach them Chinese, or that there is a desparate shortage of Chinese-Arabic interpreters in the UN, as well as Chinese-Spanish and other languages world-wide right now, they'll ignore it altogether, and spend years trying to figure out how to get to the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, Ireland and sometimes South Africa, which combined, have a smaller population than China's alone! Even some Chinese will criticise this narrow worldview of their compatriots. So certainly as long as the Chinese are going to maintain such a mentality, then I'd definitely be in favour of blocking immigration to them until they smarten up and start spreading out a little. Like I said, there are plenty of nations worldwide right now which are trying to attract Chinese to fill various positions language-wise, and yet the Chinese just turn their backs to those countries and still try to cram into the anglo nations only.

 

[Machjo]

RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

Oh, and before anyone makes any claims to bigotry on my part, in principle I don't even agree with immigration quotas and would rather just people the world over the freedom to go where thy want when they want. But that requires a certain balance though (i.e., movement is reciprocal and evenly distributed). But if nearly the entire Chinese population wants to come to Canada, the US, the UK, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand, and sometimes South Africa, that's not balanced. Should we give them such freedom, that would be an onslought on the targetted countries (no pun intended on the word targetted, 'cause we really are, so take it literally!). So before more international freedom of movement can be secured, the Chinese would first need to change such an anglo-centric mentality, so as to ensure a more evenly distributed and 'natural' flow of people at sustainable levels. Obviously it would be unsustainable if all of a sudden China wants to flood Britain and Ireland while being completely oblivious to the very esistence of France and German, or to want to flood North America or Australia or New Zealand while completely ignoring Japan and South Korea, or to want to all move to South Africa while being oblivious to the rest of the African Continent. That would be paramount to a full-scale attack on this small handful of countries population-wise.

 

[Mediana]

Re: RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

Oh, and before anyone makes any claims to bigotry on my part, in principle I don't even agree with immigration quotas and would rather just people the world over the freedom to go where thy want when they want. But that requires a certain balance though (i.e., movement is reciprocal and evenly distributed).

Get real. How do you get reciprocity when people of european heritage only make up 8% of the world population?

 

[peapod]

Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

Get real yourself med, Machjo comes here and is nice and polite to everyone, not to mention interesting posts.

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

I'd love to shut the damn doors on immigration. It's turning this country into a joke.

If you think Canadians like it, you should really open your eyes. Go to any small town in Canada and ask peope there if they like it. It was that scum Trudeau who wanted to get some extra greecey Liberal votes.

I'm sure some indian is thinking "We should have had the same attitude when the white man was comming; too bad we were so welcoming."

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

Poll after poll shows that Canadians think we have to much immigration in this country.

The only people I hear begging for it are corporations saying we don't have enough ppl to do the work, yet we have a 7% unemployment rate.

Instead of the feds taking the EI money it should be going to the provinces as education money.

I'm sure if we'd had polls for the indians while the white man was busy raping the indians in residential schools, we'd have had the same results.

 

[Machjo]

Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

Right now we are short of skilled and semi-skilled construction workers, engineers, and medical workers.

This is not so. I have many friends that are welders, electricians, and labourers and they are out of work. There is no shortage of workers. There is a shortage of contractors that are willing to pay a fair wage for their labour.

Here in Vancouver, a lot of these contractors are hiring Mexicans to replace unemployed Canadians that will not work for $14 an hour. The Mexican thinks he has died and gone to heaven. Most of these workers have temporary status and will eventually have to return home.

I'm glad the Mexicans are benefitting a little. Perhaps the reason I'm not so nationalist is becasue I'm used to seeing people squatting in the field to do their business because they don't have proper washrooms. Some Canadians just don't know how well they've got it. That's what irritates me most about some Canadians. More worried about trying to get Canadians' wages up with no regard for trying to get food into otehr people's bellies. "Canaqdian first, human second" seems to be the attitude for some, when it ought to be "human first, Canadian second."

 

[Machjo]

Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

Get real yourself med, Machjo comes here and is nice and polite to everyone, not to mention interesting posts.

Thanks, Peapod.

 

[no1important]

RE: Assimilation of Immig

Personally I do not believe in Borders, everyone should be able to move anywhere on the planet as they see fit. But I know I am unrealistic, especially in this era where we all would rather fight and have wars instead of all getting along.

The sooner people realize where all stuck on this planet together and that it would be better to get along and use our resources to better mankind ( alternative fuel sources, try to advance medical technology,make sure everyone on earth has food/shelter/ medical care, space exploration, etc) the better off we will be.

But I guess I live in a dream world. As much as I try to make things better it is a long hard battle to convince the masses.