Immigrant Assimilation

galianomama

Council Member
Jun 29, 2004
1,076
1
38
Victoria, B.C.
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

pea - he's lebanese....and a cool dude....hey - we should head down there tonight and see what's happening. saw him the other night sitting outside with his coffee and cig 8)

i waved - but was going too fast.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
10,745
0
36
pumpkin pie bungalow
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

No he is not mama, you should listen more carefully, he was born in persia, but like any good spice trader he moved around, I think they call it a spice route :lol:
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

Dervish_Khan said:
Cub1c,Did you or your ancestors adapt the traditions, norms, religion, and values of the native inhabitants of this land? Is that why many first-nations people were mass-slaughtered?

Many immigrants, including people like my parents (both of whom have PHDs in their respective fields), will be forced to change their culture or ideologies.

The plain truth is, the native Canadians were engaged in battle and they lost. Had they won, their culture would still predominate. That is how disputes were settled in the early years of this continent.

Texas and California were both Spanish, but then they lost. Michigan was French, but then they lost. So until a new culture defeats the current culture, I think folks here have every right to dictate the culture. You can become a part of it and add to it, but you cannot completely change it or take things away.

As for you parent's PhDs. I could care less how many letters they have after their name. That piece of information did nothing to strengthen your argument.
 

cub1c

Electoral Member
Mar 22, 2005
302
0
16
Québec, Montréal
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

Dervish_Khan said:
Did you or your ancestors adapt the traditions, norms, religion, and values of the native inhabitants of this land?

What's next? You're going to blame dinosaurs extinction on me?

Dervish_Khan said:
Face it buddy, Canada has no official culture.

Thanks for the compliment. You're a real integrated immigrant!

Dervish_Khan said:
Thenseforth, you have no right to exert pressure upon new residents to change their ways of living.

Those who want to implement Charia into our justice system are probably thinking the same way.

Sorry for the sarcasm but you'll have to find better.
 

Dervish_Khan

New Member
May 7, 2005
13
0
1
observer83.blogspot.com
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

The plain truth is, the native Canadians were engaged in battle and they lost. Had they won, their culture would still predominate. That is how disputes were settled in the early years of this continent

But that is not how disputed are dealt with today... There, you got it all wrong again (intentionally, I'd suppose) :?
In my aforementioned post, I was merely responding to cub1c's assertion that immigrants should be assimilated into the dominant Canadian "culture". In my humble response to his rather absurd proposal, I said, quite unequivocally, that in a country like Canada, there is no officially recognised "dominant culture". For this very reason, one need not worry about assimilating into any culture. As you pointed out in your above comment, forcing a nation into assimilation is an ancient and primitive technique which is not applicable in this age.

As for my parents' PHD, I utilised that example to accentuate the fact that they are, contrary to your perception of a general immigrant, quite knowledgeable and educated and are fluent in English despite living in an all-Iranian neighbourhood. (without much exposure to the "dominant culture")
 

Dervish_Khan

New Member
May 7, 2005
13
0
1
observer83.blogspot.com
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

cub1c,

Greetings to you! (I hope you are not offended that I do not speak French)
Anyhow, I attribute your misunderstanding of my response either to my bad English or to yours (no offence intended). So, please go back and re-read it. Only, then repond to my questions in a clever and persuasive manner.
 

cub1c

Electoral Member
Mar 22, 2005
302
0
16
Québec, Montréal
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

In my aforementioned post, I was merely responding to cub1c's assertion that immigrants should be assimilated into the dominant Canadian "culture". In my humble response to his rather absurd proposal, I said, quite unequivocally, that in a country like Canada, there is no officially recognised "dominant culture".

First, I was evoking Québec's culture, and it's not dominant in Canadian culture, but is in Québec! Second, judgement doesn't come with diploma.
 

cub1c

Electoral Member
Mar 22, 2005
302
0
16
Québec, Montréal
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

Dervish_Khan said:
cub1c,
Greetings to you! (I hope you are not offended that I do not speak French)

Yes I am, please assimilate yourself.

Dervish_Khan said:
As you pointed out in your above comment, forcing a nation into assimilation is an ancient and primitive technique which is not applicable in this age.

What about assimilation of the quebecers? The same way US is assimilating ROC?

It would be interesting to have your opinion on some subject like the Charia thing. What about the right for a room in a public school so they can prey? And those who fight for their right to wash their feet in public sinks? Government financing private school for espacially for jews, or any others?
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

Dervish_Khan said:
As for my parents' PHD, I utilised that example to accentuate the fact that they are, contrary to your perception of a general immigrant, quite knowledgeable and educated and are fluent in English despite living in an all-Iranian neighbourhood. (without much exposure to the "dominant culture")

When did I say most immigrants are not knowledgable? Being fluent in English is one thing, you can know all the words and rules, but to be truely fluent one must interact with society. Iranian English is probably far different from mainstream English.
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

Dervish_Khan said:
that in a country like Canada, there is no officially recognised "dominant culture". For this very reason, one need not worry about assimilating into any culture.

According to who? I recognize the there is a dominant Canadian culture. Why come to Canada then if you do not want to be part of the culture. Do immigrants simply wish to use the resources here that the other immigrants built, but have nothing to do with the natives? Curious that all these immigrant who questions this "White" culture all immigrant to these "white" countries. The big immigrant countries (Canada, USA, Europe, Australia) are all founded by european settlers under the Christian religion, why is that? Could it be that the culture they establish is pretty could and does not need to be changed?

How many immigrants did Iran take in from Europe and North America last year, last decade. Curious don't you think?

Just because the Iranians, Indians, Africans and Chinese have come here, doesn't mean the country should start changing to accomodate them. I mean it was good enough to come to in the first place, so why does everything need to change?

My parents are from India and I'm proud of that, however I'm extremely proud to be Canadian (whatever that is :wink: )!
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

DasFX said:
My parents are from India and I'm proud of that, however I'm extremely proud to be Canadian (whatever that is :wink: )!

You're signature kind of spills the beans on that one, DasFX. :p
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

One issue I have, though, is with the education system. From the way history was tought when I was in school, I was struck by the way the Europeans forced themselves upon the North American continent, eradicated many natives, introduced the reservation system, attempted cultural genocide through sexual and physical abuse in residential schools, along with the imposition of Christianity in at least some schools, and participated in the Boer War as well. And let's not forget that the residential schools were common in Quebec too. And as for religion, if I'm not mistaken, Quebec still offers Catechism or ethics, and those are your two choices. Ontario still has a public Catholic school system. I was born in Canada, with some native blood on my father's side. My mother's roots go back to New France 400 years ago.

So as long as history is tought in such a light, it's obvious that many English and French Canadians such as myself will find it difficult to understand the basis of assimilation of minorities to our cultures when our own cultures are in fact foreign to the North American continent from such a historical viewpoint, not to mention that it's perceived as stolen land, taken through blood and tears. So if we wanted to develop the moral will of the people to forego multiculturalism and adopt a strict policy of assimilation instead, then it would seem to me that we'd have to change the way history would be tought in one of the following manners:

1. Not teach history prior to when French and English Canadians were already the majority, so as to give the argument that the democratic right of the majority prevails, while not having to deal with the moral dilemma of whether or not the majority is legitimate when it in fact forced itself into the position rather violently and militarily.

2. Teach a sanitized version of history void of the bloody parts, except of course when we ourselves are the valiant victims fighting to the death for freedom in Europe during WWII, so as to give a sense of pride minus any possible moral conflict with our bloody history, thus giving us the moral ground to impose the majority culture for which we so valiantly fought.
or

3. Teach the whole truth of history as it is now tought, but adding to it the philosophy that the victor has the moral right to impose his culture upon the defeated. i.e., the natives lost against the Musket, and the French lost on the plains of Abraham, and so the English now have the moral right to impose their culture.

The danger with any of these revisions of history, of course, would be the teaching of the value that might makes right, which of course could then have dangerous repercussions in otehr aspects of Canadian society.

But if the way history is tought is not changed, then certainly English and French Canadians will naturally continue to try to understand the moral implications of their history in teh world of today, thus making it difficult to understand from where exactly the right to impose our majority culture come. Until that question is clearly answered in the school system, we will continue to be hesitant about imposing our culture, as we try to understand the source of its moral authority.

Just my thoughts.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

One issue I have, though, is with the education system. From the way history was tought when I was in school, I was struck by the way the Europeans forced themselves upon the North American continent, eradicated many natives, introduced the reservation system, attempted cultural genocide through sexual and physical abuse in residential schools, along with the imposition of Christianity in at least some schools, and participated in the Boer War as well. And let's not forget that the residential schools were common in Quebec too. And as for religion, if I'm not mistaken, Quebec still offers Catechism or ethics, and those are your two choices. Ontario still has a public Catholic school system. I was born in Canada, with some native blood on my father's side. My mother's roots go back to New France 400 years ago.

So as long as history is tought in such a light, it's obvious that many English and French Canadians such as myself will find it difficult to understand the basis of assimilation of minorities to our cultures when our own cultures are in fact foreign to the North American continent from such a historical viewpoint, not to mention that it's perceived as stolen land, taken through blood and tears. So if we wanted to develop the moral will of the people to forego multiculturalism and adopt a strict policy of assimilation instead, then it would seem to me that we'd have to change the way history would be tought in one of the following manners:

1. Not teach history prior to when French and English Canadians were already the majority, so as to give the argument that the democratic right of the majority prevails, while not having to deal with the moral dilemma of whether or not the majority is legitimate when it in fact forced itself into the position rather violently and militarily.

2. Teach a sanitized version of history void of the bloody parts, except of course when we ourselves are the valiant victims fighting to the death for freedom in Europe during WWII, so as to give a sense of pride minus any possible moral conflict with our bloody history, thus giving us the moral ground to impose the majority culture for which we so valiantly fought.
or

3. Teach the whole truth of history as it is now tought, but adding to it the philosophy that the victor has the moral right to impose his culture upon the defeated. i.e., the natives lost against the Musket, and the French lost on the plains of Abraham, and so the English now have the moral right to impose their culture.

The danger with any of these revisions of history, of course, would be the teaching of the value that might makes right, which of course could then have dangerous repercussions in otehr aspects of Canadian society.

But if the way history is tought is not changed, then certainly English and French Canadians will naturally continue to try to understand the moral implications of their history in teh world of today, thus making it difficult to understand from where exactly the right to impose our majority culture come. Until that question is clearly answered in the school system, we will continue to be hesitant about imposing our culture, as we try to understand the source of its moral authority.

Just my thoughts.
 

Frappuccino Dibs

Electoral Member
Apr 25, 2005
181
0
16
Re: Assimilation of Immigrants

Well, as a person who is currently trying to immagrate to Canada, I think I'm speaking for both Mrs Dibs and myself when I say we will be happy to assimilate the Canadian way of life etc.

We are not planning to move countries and start a new life and then try and hold onto our roots. The whole concept of holding onto your routes makes no sense to me. A good anology (from my point of view) is the chinese who leave china to start a new life and then build a 'China Town'. Surely if they wanted the chinese food and way of life so badly, they would have stayed where they were :?

I know there are economical reasons and nothing is ever clear cut.

But - you Canadians should count yourself lucky and feel proud of what you have, cause I sure as hell want a piece of it. 8)
 

cub1c

Electoral Member
Mar 22, 2005
302
0
16
Québec, Montréal
Re: RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

I'll do like I never saw you're argument about changing history, it's just too absurd and stupid for me. Maybe I have to remind you that we are in 2005 and that history is, well, history. Don't you understand to goal of having history classes? Did it ever crossed you're mind that it's a great way to inform about what NOT to do? Aren't we supposed to learn from our mistakes?

Like our great Falardeau, again ;), once said: "People doesn't want to know were they come from, they want to know where they're going!"
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

I'm surprised that there isn't a mad rush to defend multiculturalism here in this thread....is the tide turning?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

I know my previous suggestion was absurd. It was to make a point. How can we ignore history? So, if I understand correctly, we now have a right to this land because we won?! What does that say about our sense of ethics as a people? To me that says that we believe that might makes right, and the majority rules! That's why I don't label myself a democrat or a supporter of democracy per se, sinse it can easily lead to the tiranny of the majority.
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

Machjo said:
I was struck by the way the Europeans forced themselves upon the North American continent, eradicated many natives, introduced the reservation system, attempted cultural genocide through sexual and physical abuse in residential schools, along with the imposition of Christianity in at least some schools, and participated in the Boer War as well.

So as long as history is tought in such a light, it's obvious that many English and French Canadians such as myself will find it difficult to understand the basis of assimilation of minorities to our cultures when our own cultures are in fact foreign to the North American continent from such a historical viewpoint, not to mention that it's perceived as stolen land, taken through blood and tears.

You miss the key point, the English and French made their culture dominant by force. There were wars and the Natives lost. Immigration is not by force; it is a choice. They seek permission from the government to come here. Very different scenarios.

As for this being stolen land, taken through blood and tears. I'll give you the blood and tears, but I don't see how it is stolen. I mean I know how Natives inhabited the Americas first, but then another force came in, they engaged in wars and the lost. Survival of the fittest. Was it a fair fight? No, but wars are not about being fair. The details of the abuse and the other atrocities are horrific, and I should hope they will never be repeated, but 450 years ago a very different human race existed.

Now if the English and French had sought to immigrate to the Huron or Iroquois nation, I'm almost positive that they would be forced to assimilate to some degree. Yes, they culture of origin would influence the native cultures, but only to a certain extent.

Bottom line, one situation of immigration was by force and the other is by choice.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
RE: Assimilation of Immigrants

Sure, modern immigrants come by choice, but then again, do we ourselves own the land we took by force?

Are you suggesting might makes right?