How will a Conservative government be better?

[Reverend Blair]

RE: How will a Conservati

What else would have done it then? Why weren't there other proposals put forth by the gun lobby? Why was the best the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives do was to jump up and down and stamp their feet?

The Liberals proposed the legislation. The NDP worked with native groups to get some of the rules adapted for them. The gun lobby and the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives shipped Chuck Heston up here to tell us about our rights under the US Constitution and got Ted Nugent to yammer at a couple of concerts.

We have a law that was written in response to the shootings at L'ecole Polytechnique by a bunch of people who have never used a gun. Nobody who did use guns offered any reasonable alternatives. What did you think was going to happen?

 

[LadyC]

What else would have done it?

It is also having a positive effect. There are fewer guns being stored unsafely, the police know where at least some of the guns are, and gun thefts are now reported more often. Ammunition cannot be as easily purchased.

Education on the proper storage and handling of firearms. (I believe this is already available, and a requirement for purchase) Put stricter controls on the sale of ammo, which I believe was already in place.

If gun thefts are being reported more often, perhaps it's because more of them are being stolen.

Creating the gun registry in response to Mark Lepine's shooting spree was, excuse the expression, overkill.

 

[mrmom2]

Well Rev more guns are being hidden now the registry is just a tool for the goverment to start confiscating guns :x The gov will never do that though hey Rev 8O The whole thing is about control theywant total control period .Take away the guns and they've got it :roll:

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: How will a Conservati

It's the kind of result that you are bound to get when you won't work with people, C. The legislation is popular in urban areas where there are lots of votes and pretty much a non-factor among people in rural areas who don't use guns.

They aren't confiscating guns, Mom. I know plenty of people who have plenty of guns and nobody is taking them away. Hunting rifles aren't what will be used in any fight against the government anyway. Look around the world...when that kind of conflict starts the AK-47s show up. It doesn't matter what the laws are.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

The gun registry grew as much out of a lack of reasonable resistance as anything else though. The Reform/Alliance/Conservatives failed to offer an alternative, yet it was clear that some sort of regulation was going to come in.

It is also having a positive effect. There are fewer guns being stored unsafely, the police know where at least some of the guns are, and gun thefts are now reported more often. Ammunition cannot be as easily purchased.

The reason the Reform Alliance did not offer an alternative is because nothing was needed. There were already handgun regulations in place in Canada. There were already firearm acquistion requirements in Canada. There were already restrictions on ammuntion purchases in Canada. There were already restrictions on assault weapons in Canada. The gun registry came out of a horrible incident in Montreal, and was nothing but a knee jerk reaction to a lone nut. The murders of the Mounties in Mayerthorpe proves the registry does not work. This was done by a lone nut as well, and if the registry was started due to actions by a lone nut, it should be disbanded because it failed to stop a similar lone nut many years later. At $70k per year for a police officer, this two billion could have put over 26,000 police officers on the streets of Canada. We already had lots of weapon information on lists, so we did not need another one. And the ones who say that criminals will never register their guns are right, and I doubt that anyone killed by a registred gun really gives a rats behind that it was registered. It still kills. End of story, get rid of the gun registry.

 

[SirKevin]

Re: RE: How will a Conservative government be better?

HowEVER did the police solve crimes before the registry?

The gun registry cannot prevent crimes. Your saying it can doesn't qualify as refuting anything.

Lala. Apparently you did not read the fascnating facts I posted. Check the graph of people who were rejected when they applied; do not tell me someone of them would not have gone on to commit crime had they been granted the license.

Right, NONE of those peole would have gone on to commit a violent crime had they been given a gun.

http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/media/reports/Commissioner-Report/HTML_files/sec03_e.html

From that same link -

I'm sure that none of those consultations led to a solved crime, eh?

I could pick through that site and post hundreds of things like that proving that the gun registry accomplishes some good. Of course the system is not perfect; but can you name one government program anywhere that is?

 

[Reverend Blair]

The reason the Reform Alliance did not offer an alternative is because nothing was needed.

Voters were demanding that something be done. Something was obviously needed because the Canadian people were saying that something was needed.

The majority of Canadians still support the gun registry too. They still feel that something is needed. Most of them don't know the difference between a single shot .22, a deer rifle, or an Uzi. What they do know is that gun violence is a problem.

It's called democracy, Blue. You are supporting a party that doesn't understand how it works.

 

[LadyC]

Right, NONE of those peole would have gone on to commit a violent crime had they been given a gun.

A legal gun, no. And we know that criminals are sticklers for the law.

 

[bluealberta]

The reason the Reform Alliance did not offer an alternative is because nothing was needed.

Voters were demanding that something be done. Something was obviously needed because the Canadian people were saying that something was needed.

The majority of Canadians still support the gun registry too. They still feel that something is needed. Most of them don't know the difference between a single shot .22, a deer rifle, or an Uzi. What they do know is that gun violence is a problem.

It's called democracy, Blue. You are supporting a party that doesn't understand how it works.

You keep saying Canadians like the absolute vast majority is in favor of something. The majority of Canadians, including me, support gun control. What I don't support is this gun control, because the previous regulations were more than satisfactory. We on the right cannot help it if people are too lazy to actually research something instead of listening to the exaggerations of the left, especially about this topic. If as you say Canadians were demading something be done, then these same Canadians should have done research into what had already been done. This registry was simply a knee jerk reaction fueled by justifiable outrage. But, at the end of the day, it was still a lone nut who did the evil deed. You are absolutely right, most people have no idea about guns, yet this is the same group that wants to make the rules about something they know nothing about.

If as you say a majority does want further gun control, who in this country will speak up for the minority who do not want further gun control?

I don't accept your premise about what Canadians want either. Most of the polls have questions like: Are you in favor of gun controls to control violent crime? Well, the answer is obviously yes. If the question was instead: Are you in favor of gun controls in addtion to the ones currently in place? Then, the answer, I feel, would be quite different, and may actually make people look into the issue instead of providing an uninformed answer.

Most gun owners (I am not one now) support a form of gun control, just not more redundant and expensive gun controls. And yes, I do believe it has the potential to be a confiscation issue.

 

[Reverend Blair]

You keep saying Canadians like the absolute vast majority is in favor of something.

I do. There's a reason for that. The vast majority wanted something done.

What I don't support is this gun control, because the previous regulations were more than satisfactory.

The vast majority did not think so.

We on the right cannot help it if people are too lazy to actually research something instead of listening to the exaggerations of the left, especially about this topic.

That doesn't wash. The NDP opposed this too. That's how they got some changes for the native groups they were working with.

What you are really talking about is the large urban populations. It isn't just in the east, and it wasn't the left. It was the fact that most people in this country have never held a gun, never fired a gun and have no interest in guns as long as nobody points one at them. You will find supporters of the gun registry in every city in the country. There are more of them in Southern Ontario because that area is more urbanized, but to try to portray this as a left/right or east/west issue is one of the mistakes the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives made in the first place.

They didn't need to do research. They had two choices...the bill the Liberals were introducing or some guys who were yelling and jumping up and down and seemed to want even fewer rules than we already had...Chuck got a lot of airplay because he was famous and a moron.

 

[bluealberta]

But Rev, that's the problem, the law in this case was crafted to please people who have nothing to do with guns or weapons, and I know that down East everyone thinks we out here have guns buried in our back yards just waiting for those Eastern hordes to come take our oil. Nothing is further from the truth, but the actual truth is many rural people have guns for pest control, not human varmit control. Many are hunters, and some even have the odd .22 just for plain old gopher hunting. In the meantime, the registry that demands all these guns be registered or you become a criminal, did nothing to stop the nut in Mayerthorpe, even though the registry was established for exactly this type of situation. All we have done is make criminals out of ordinary hard working folks, while doing nothing to stop the criminals from getting guns. Great little system. Great little method of allowing the Liberals to launder some more money, or at least waste it. Given the HRDC crap, the gun registry from $1million to $2 billion, and you wonder why those of us on the right have huge concerns about the Kyoto myth? Even if it was beneficial and everyone agreed with it, no one can honestly say that it will be $10billion, given the track record of this fiscal irresponsible government, and now Smilin Jack just got another $4.6 billion we did not have until about 10 days ago. Gee, must be magic in them thar hills of Parliament. Even David Blaine can't find that much money overnight.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: How will a Conservati

Blue, I grew up in Saskatchewan. I live in Winnipeg. I know all about the rural prairies and shooting gophers and hunting. You aren't listening.

If your Reformatories would have gone to Ottawa with a plan to get guns off the streets...gotten together the statistics, spent some time educating people on what guns are used for etc...in short done what any reasonable party would have done under the circumstances, you could have gotten a better law. You could have worked with farm groups, native groups, hunters associations, and gotten them together with victims of violence groups and anti-crime groups. Hell, museums were against this registry because of the storge and handling regulations that came with it...you could have worked with them. You could have put up and effective opposition and gotten something better in.

You didn't do that though. You allied yourselves with the loons at the NRA and opposed any changes. Some of your more vocal spokespeople even came out against things like FACs. Others tried to get sport hunting regulations loosened for foreigners.

You did that while the majority of Canadians were crying out for something to be done. The Liberals did something. Canadians were, and still are, happy about that.

You know the really funny thing? Both you and the Liberals know damned well how to cut down on the number of illegal guns in Canada. More searches at the US border, including dogs, and serious pressure on the US government to do something about the gun problem in their country.

Nobody will even mention that in public though. We know where the problem is coming from. We know that Canadians are being killed by that problem. Nobody will mumble the obvious though...it might make the Americans mad.

So quit bitching about the gun registry. Nobody wants to hear it any more. You didn't even try to make changes when it was possible to do so. You didn't listen to the majority of Canadians. You still aren't listening to the majority of Canadians. You throw up that $2 billion number constantly. You know what most people think? What is the cash value that the Conservatives put on a human life.

 

[SirKevin]

Re: RE: How will a Conservative government be better?

Right, NONE of those peole would have gone on to commit a violent crime had they been given a gun.

A legal gun, no. And we know that criminals are sticklers for the law.

Good Lord...

I'm sure that there are tons of people who would go and commit a crime if they had easy access to a gun; but just don't have the underground connections or desire to otherwise acquire one.

You're also ignoring the access stats. Why do law enforcement officials keep checking a registry that does not work?

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

Blue, I grew up in Saskatchewan. I live in Winnipeg. I know all about the rural prairies and shooting gophers and hunting. You aren't listening.

If your Reformatories would have gone to Ottawa with a plan to get guns off the streets...gotten together the statistics, spent some time educating people on what guns are used for etc...in short done what any reasonable party would have done under the circumstances, you could have gotten a better law. You could have worked with farm groups, native groups, hunters associations, and gotten them together with victims of violence groups and anti-crime groups. Hell, museums were against this registry because of the storge and handling regulations that came with it...you could have worked with them. You could have put up and effective opposition and gotten something better in.

You didn't do that though. You allied yourselves with the loons at the NRA and opposed any changes. Some of your more vocal spokespeople even came out against things like FACs. Others tried to get sport hunting regulations loosened for foreigners.

You did that while the majority of Canadians were crying out for something to be done. The Liberals did something. Canadians were, and still are, happy about that.

You know the really funny thing? Both you and the Liberals know damned well how to cut down on the number of illegal guns in Canada. More searches at the US border, including dogs, and serious pressure on the US government to do something about the gun problem in their country.

Nobody will even mention that in public though. We know where the problem is coming from. We know that Canadians are being killed by that problem. Nobody will mumble the obvious though...it might make the Americans mad.

So quit bitching about the gun registry. Nobody wants to hear it any more. You didn't even try to make changes when it was possible to do so. You didn't listen to the majority of Canadians. You still aren't listening to the majority of Canadians. You throw up that $2 billion number constantly. You know what most people think? What is the cash value that the Conservatives put on a human life.

I bet Sask is glad you left, and no, I will not quit bitching about a useless piece of crap like the gun registry. You don't listen. Police officers on the street don't like the registrty, it does virtually nothing for them. There were numerous programs in place already.What's the value of a human life? I know that 26,000 plus police officers could have saved far more lives than you allege this registry has done. Only the left could blame the Reform/Alliance for a flawed piece of Liberal legilation, but then the left is all about regulating every step of our lives from birth to death, so what else is new? What's next? Regulating when and where Canadians can take vacations? No, maybe regulating if Canadians can take vacations. Who knows what the left has in mind for us next, but I know it will involve regulation of some other aspect of our lives.

 

[Numure]

RE: How will a Conservati

If anything, I'm quite happy with the current gun control in Québec. Took me a few years before I could own a gun. And they are all registered. The program is quite good. It only costs billions because we went from nothing to something. And half you dam westerners rejected the program, costing more money. The over cost of it, is your fault, not the programs fault. Give it a chance.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

If anything, I'm quite happy with the current gun control in Québec. Took me a few years before I could own a gun. And they are all registered. The program is quite good. It only costs billions because we went from nothing to something. And half you dam westerners rejected the program, costing more money. The over cost of it, is your fault, not the programs fault. Give it a chance.

How many years would it have taken before this crap? There were massive pre-qualifications before the gun registry. And that's typical, blame the west for another liberal cost overrun. We are the reason it went from a million to two billion? Hardly, but go ahead and blame us if you want, we're quite used to it.

And if you like that in Quebec, how about you fund it yourselves then, okay?

 

[LadyC]

Re: RE: How will a Conservative government be better?

Right, NONE of those peole would have gone on to commit a violent crime had they been given a gun.

A legal gun, no. And we know that criminals are sticklers for the law.

Good Lord...

I'm sure that there are tons of people who would go and commit a crime if they had easy access to a gun; but just don't have the underground connections or desire to otherwise acquire one.

You're also ignoring the access stats. Why do law enforcement officials keep checking a registry that does not work?

People can commit a crime with a baseball bat, Kev. They don't need a gun.

I'm sure most crimes are committed with an illegal gun, but even if they're not, the registry can only be consulted after the fact.

 

[Reverend Blair]

People can commit a crime with a baseball bat, Kev. They don't need a gun.

Personally, I'd rather be hit with a bat than shot.

You don't listen.

I do listen though. I listened to what was going on when the legislation was being brought in. That's how I know how badly you guys screwed up. Now if you had actually tried to do something constructive and failed, then I could understand your bitching. You didn't try to do anything though, so your bitching no longer garners any pity from me at all. Neither does the self-serving and dishonest way you try to paint this as a left-right issue.

The rest of your post is politically immature blather.

 

[SirKevin]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

Police officers on the street don't like the registrty, it does virtually nothing for them.

Which explains why they consult it over half a million times a year.

Christ, I'm frustrated.

 

[SirKevin]

Re: RE: How will a Conservative government be better?

People can commit a crime with a baseball bat, Kev. They don't need a gun.

Good Lord, that could be the Dictionary.com definition of 'red herring'. I don't remember proposing a baseball bat registry.

I'm sure most crimes are committed with an illegal gun, but even if they're not, the registry can only be consulted after the fact.

And if the registry leads to an arrest, it stops that person from committing another violent crime.