Why should I want to convince a sceptic in the first place? I have formed for myself a certain belief system, through trial and error, through effort, work and research. It works for me, it helps me in life, but achieving this point was real hard work. And here's your average sceptic - why should I waste my breath, words and effort trying to convert him? I might explain my point of view, while discussing something, I might tell me people about my beliefs, if some question arises, but actually converting someone? Sharing for free very useful things that I paid a lot to get to know? No way, sceptics, no way. The knowledge is mine, to treasure and use, and I am not going to share :smile:
How to convert a skeptic - written for the faithful by a skeptic
- Thread starter Scott Free
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Why should I want to convince a sceptic in the first place? I have formed for myself a certain belief system, through trial and error, through effort, work and research. It works for me, it helps me in life, but achieving this point was real hard work. And here's your average sceptic - why should I waste my breath, words and effort trying to convert him? I might explain my point of view, while discussing something, I might tell me people about my beliefs, if some question arises, but actually converting someone? Sharing for free very useful things that I paid a lot to get to know? No way, sceptics, no way. The knowledge is mine, to treasure and use, and I am not going to share :smile:
I'm not sure if 'conversion' should even be a goal. Giving reasons why you aren't a skeptic, in a short form, is about as far as it can go.
If it's useful, why not share it for free, since it is based on a previous work (Scriptures) I'm not sure you can 'own it'. That isn't saying you need to share it with a skeptic but would you also with-hold it from another believer?
If it's useful, why not share it for free, since it is based on a previous work (Scriptures) I'm not sure you can 'own it'. That isn't saying you need to share it with a skeptic but would you also with-hold it from another believer?
These verses were at one time important to me because I knew no better, but were issues I had to question and work out a solution that would be fit my understanding.
That is why I said, the New Testament is a workbook by which individuals take what is in there, mull it out (Hatched it out) in their minds and pray for revelations from the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding.
The good news is that we can do that without the loss of life. (Spiritual life I mean)
That is why there is but one standard that works across all beliefs, and that is love.
All other issues should be worked out based on that standard.
Jesus dealt with all those issues for us, in that He took the penalty for them to the cross to free us up.
You see, what conditions mankind was placed in was not of mankind's doing, but Gods.
God had to make the change on our behalf, hence, God in Jesus got beat up, made to carry the weight of His own cross, got ridiculed, sped on, laughed at, humiliated in front of mankind, stripped naked and crucified.
The hardest part for Jesus was to have seen/felt the rejection of the Father, of whom He was intent to please.
But He endured to the end and won freedom for all of us, for the conditions placed on mankind were then removed: the standard? Love.
Raising the symbol as a standard so that everyone can see is the cross.
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Did not the serpent beguile mankind?
Guess who was on the cross to pay for it?
All who look at the cross with Jesus on it and are bitten shall live yet while in the flesh, otherwise, wait till one dies physically to achieve the same means.
Far fetched? Not if one has understanding.
Peace>>>AJ
That post was a reply to Dexter, the verse he referenced and what he understood it to mean is what I was addressing.
Basically, did the meaning he applied to the verse form a negative opinion of God or did he have a negative opinion of God before he read that verse and that is why he understood it to be demeaning to women.
Basically, did the meaning he applied to the verse form a negative opinion of God or did he have a negative opinion of God before he read that verse and that is why he understood it to be demeaning to women.
Its time for me to take a Sabbatical from posting on this thread, but I will be monitoring it.
Peace>>>AJ
Peace>>>AJ
It depends dear, who the others are.
Are you, for instance,the intellectual equal of a Voltaire, or a Jefferson?
Not likely. My feelings toward god are that he doesn't exist.
Ah, another logical fallacy, one I haven't seen so clearly from you before. It's called tu quoque, Latin for "you too." No I don't think that, the record is obvious, and those questions are irrelevant. What's your point, that because Jews and non-Christian gentiles did it, it's okay for Christians to do it too?
Here's the bottom line: if you claim something is true, I will look at the evidence and arguments you offer in support of it. If you haven't any, or if what you have is insufficient and too logically flawed to establish the claim, I will not accept that it's true and will consider you foolish and gullible for believing it.
Specifically, I think you are foolish and gullible to believe that the Bible is true, correct, consistent and accurate, and you are foolish and gullible to spend so much time and effort trying to extract a description of the future from it. If that vision of the future comes true to any degree it'll be because a whole lot of foolish and gullible people believed it would, did nothing to prevent it, and in fact aided and abetted in making it happen. It'll be entirely self-inflicted.
Did that definition from Strong's indicate that 'shamefacedness' might not be a total insult, but rather point to being 'modest'?
I wish you wouldn't use words like 'foolish' and 'gullible', if I can supply enough Scriptures to support what I say, those words only end up applying to you.
Are you aware that the strongest skeptics also end up being the strongest believers (if they ever switch that is). Believe it or not that is a compliment. Any wishy-washy person can be talked into believing almost anything, politics would supply the most examples of that being true.
Before we actually start, if I can supply 3 separate references to the same 'topic' or 'one specific point' is that enough to support that is what Scripture means? That is the best way I have found to curtain letting imagination take over, if you want more I might not be able to do that for every single point.
So the Dead Sea having fresh water fish will be a catastrophe?
There are two parts that are yet to be fulfilled. Men could very well try and fulfill the bad parts (to a very limited degree) and some of the bad will be beyond them, anything Christ does in either respect concerning wrath and 'repairing' is beyond anything they could attempt.
In the other thread that I said a little bit the theory on the 7 years trib and how I think that is not verifiable through Scripture. I will wait till you read and comment (just saying you have read it is enough or you can make as many comments as you want) before I try and explain how I see the 2nd half of the 70th week being fulfilled.
Since that 7 years should also be able to be found in Revelation that is what I will start with here.
The times that are given are 1260 days for the two witnesses, 42 months for the Beast from the Pit, and time, times and half a time for the woman in Ch:12.
Ch:12 needs a bit of explaining as there are two times given. The first one mentioned is not a trib period, the words that go with that time fit events that happened during the 3 1/2 years before Christ was taken to Heaven, the woman that is protected from the dragon (by the earth)is the only time that applies to the trib.
The last three trumps are also associated with 3 woes mentioned, they affect the 'inhabitants of the earth' that isn't just men but that can wait for a bit. The 1st two are events that Satan & Co can inflict, that is tribulation, everybody that he is going to kill will be killed in those two trumps. The 42 months of the beast start at the sound of that 5th trump (his release from the pit), 5 months (150 days)are used up (that is the whole of the 1st woe), that leaves 37 months (1110 days) for the 6th trump (end of the 2nd woe)
The 7th trump is Christ's return (3rd woe), remember these woes are on 'all' the inhabitants of the earth, this is when He takes out Satan & Co and any man still aligned with him. Ch:11 is the most obvious marker for this, as it says the 2nd woe is over and then the last trump sounds. This is as good a place as any to cover the two witnesses time. Satan's time ends at their resurrection, after they have been dead for 3 1/2 days. 42 months is the same time as 1260 days (in prophecy days all months are 30 days). This means the two witnesses should have started their time 3 1/2 days before the beast is released from the pit.
The woman should include the 144,000 and all these survive the whole trib. They are sealed before the first trump sounds, for them to survive Satan's trib they would seem to be protected for most of that time, it couldn't be the whole time because there are 4 trumps that need to sound before Satan starts. If they are away from the land of Israel at the end then they should be safe because that is where Satan & Co will be when they get destroyed. One other possibility is that the 4 trumps happen in a fairly short period of time. The two witnesses could be anointed just before the 1st one sounds, that would mean those 4 sound in 3 1/2 days. That would seem to conflict with the one that has the wormwood, unless that is just when those men start to die, rather than them all dying before the next one sounds, they die all the way through the trumps, if some are wicked that would even include right up to the very end of the 7th trump.
Satan's time is tribulation, as I already mentioned, events after the sound of the 7th trump is called great tribulation. The trib could affect believers and non-believers because Satan doesn't care for either, if he has to kill a lot of his own to get a few believers to worship him, he will do it. Any of the 12 tribes not protected (144,000) will be dead by the end of the 2nd woe. The 3rd woe will only affect the wicked men, believers are not affected. The Church is part of the 'woman', 'true Christians' (those who obey His Laws), the chapter that deals with the 144,000 being sealed also has Gentiles mentioned, but they are mentioned as a group. That chapter is about who gets sealed, the first are the 144,000 Jews (and some Gentiles that are called the remnant of the Nations at the end of the 7th trump) and the last (to be sealed) are Gentiles at the Great White Throne (when the saved Gentiles will be a whole people). So that chapter is a 'topic chapter'. Another 'topic chapter' is 12, it covers the 3 most important times Satan has interacted with man. The first was Eve (given pain during birth), and Mary was a daughter of Eve so the second (woman) was her child (Jesus) and the last is who is sealed for protection during Satan's trib (part Israel and part of all Gentiles).
That's about it for the summary of the dates given, rather than going end to end, all three end at the same time (about because the time of the witnesses ends a few days before Satan's time)
I might as well give you a preview of Revelation so you can kind of see where I'm going to try and take you.
The seals are only a list of events that set a general sequence, something like the statue in Daniel, it introduces what is covered in more detail when those things listed actually unfold.
The 1st seal starts to unfold after the 1/2 hour of silence (which belongs to the seal) in Heaven after the 7th seal is broken. I will warn you they don't go 1=1, 2=2, 3=3, etc. There is an event between the end of the silence and the sound of the 1st trump. The seal that has death and hell mentioned is the 5th and 6th trumps, one trump for each hell and death.
I wish you wouldn't use words like 'foolish' and 'gullible', if I can supply enough Scriptures to support what I say, those words only end up applying to you.
Are you aware that the strongest skeptics also end up being the strongest believers (if they ever switch that is). Believe it or not that is a compliment. Any wishy-washy person can be talked into believing almost anything, politics would supply the most examples of that being true.
Before we actually start, if I can supply 3 separate references to the same 'topic' or 'one specific point' is that enough to support that is what Scripture means? That is the best way I have found to curtain letting imagination take over, if you want more I might not be able to do that for every single point.
So the Dead Sea having fresh water fish will be a catastrophe?
There are two parts that are yet to be fulfilled. Men could very well try and fulfill the bad parts (to a very limited degree) and some of the bad will be beyond them, anything Christ does in either respect concerning wrath and 'repairing' is beyond anything they could attempt.
In the other thread that I said a little bit the theory on the 7 years trib and how I think that is not verifiable through Scripture. I will wait till you read and comment (just saying you have read it is enough or you can make as many comments as you want) before I try and explain how I see the 2nd half of the 70th week being fulfilled.
Since that 7 years should also be able to be found in Revelation that is what I will start with here.
The times that are given are 1260 days for the two witnesses, 42 months for the Beast from the Pit, and time, times and half a time for the woman in Ch:12.
Ch:12 needs a bit of explaining as there are two times given. The first one mentioned is not a trib period, the words that go with that time fit events that happened during the 3 1/2 years before Christ was taken to Heaven, the woman that is protected from the dragon (by the earth)is the only time that applies to the trib.
The last three trumps are also associated with 3 woes mentioned, they affect the 'inhabitants of the earth' that isn't just men but that can wait for a bit. The 1st two are events that Satan & Co can inflict, that is tribulation, everybody that he is going to kill will be killed in those two trumps. The 42 months of the beast start at the sound of that 5th trump (his release from the pit), 5 months (150 days)are used up (that is the whole of the 1st woe), that leaves 37 months (1110 days) for the 6th trump (end of the 2nd woe)
The 7th trump is Christ's return (3rd woe), remember these woes are on 'all' the inhabitants of the earth, this is when He takes out Satan & Co and any man still aligned with him. Ch:11 is the most obvious marker for this, as it says the 2nd woe is over and then the last trump sounds. This is as good a place as any to cover the two witnesses time. Satan's time ends at their resurrection, after they have been dead for 3 1/2 days. 42 months is the same time as 1260 days (in prophecy days all months are 30 days). This means the two witnesses should have started their time 3 1/2 days before the beast is released from the pit.
The woman should include the 144,000 and all these survive the whole trib. They are sealed before the first trump sounds, for them to survive Satan's trib they would seem to be protected for most of that time, it couldn't be the whole time because there are 4 trumps that need to sound before Satan starts. If they are away from the land of Israel at the end then they should be safe because that is where Satan & Co will be when they get destroyed. One other possibility is that the 4 trumps happen in a fairly short period of time. The two witnesses could be anointed just before the 1st one sounds, that would mean those 4 sound in 3 1/2 days. That would seem to conflict with the one that has the wormwood, unless that is just when those men start to die, rather than them all dying before the next one sounds, they die all the way through the trumps, if some are wicked that would even include right up to the very end of the 7th trump.
Satan's time is tribulation, as I already mentioned, events after the sound of the 7th trump is called great tribulation. The trib could affect believers and non-believers because Satan doesn't care for either, if he has to kill a lot of his own to get a few believers to worship him, he will do it. Any of the 12 tribes not protected (144,000) will be dead by the end of the 2nd woe. The 3rd woe will only affect the wicked men, believers are not affected. The Church is part of the 'woman', 'true Christians' (those who obey His Laws), the chapter that deals with the 144,000 being sealed also has Gentiles mentioned, but they are mentioned as a group. That chapter is about who gets sealed, the first are the 144,000 Jews (and some Gentiles that are called the remnant of the Nations at the end of the 7th trump) and the last (to be sealed) are Gentiles at the Great White Throne (when the saved Gentiles will be a whole people). So that chapter is a 'topic chapter'. Another 'topic chapter' is 12, it covers the 3 most important times Satan has interacted with man. The first was Eve (given pain during birth), and Mary was a daughter of Eve so the second (woman) was her child (Jesus) and the last is who is sealed for protection during Satan's trib (part Israel and part of all Gentiles).
That's about it for the summary of the dates given, rather than going end to end, all three end at the same time (about because the time of the witnesses ends a few days before Satan's time)
I might as well give you a preview of Revelation so you can kind of see where I'm going to try and take you.
The seals are only a list of events that set a general sequence, something like the statue in Daniel, it introduces what is covered in more detail when those things listed actually unfold.
The 1st seal starts to unfold after the 1/2 hour of silence (which belongs to the seal) in Heaven after the 7th seal is broken. I will warn you they don't go 1=1, 2=2, 3=3, etc. There is an event between the end of the silence and the sound of the 1st trump. The seal that has death and hell mentioned is the 5th and 6th trumps, one trump for each hell and death.
Not being the intellectual equal of some great thinker, doesn't mean that you are to blindly repeat their ideas, and give up thinking and formulating ideas on your own. Would we have known Votaire of Jefferson, if they had just repeated what was said by clever people before them?