Holocaust Deniers

[Alberta'sfinest]

I was merely entertaining a thought. Some people can argue something without believing whole heartedely in what they are saying, it doesn't automatically become their opinion.
My opinion is that it did in fact happen. I know how powerful propaganda is first hand, as I've been a victim of it for much of my Adult life. I find it amazing that we would outlaw questioning the holocaust as much of the info sorrounding it has changed several times since it happened, and it was altered because it was questioned. History becomes more accurate when it's questioned, just like mathematical theory. Certain aspects of it were indeed exagerated or misrepresented to the general public, but it did happen despite a few historical errors. However, I do still feel that it has been given way more emphasis as a historical event, it has actually worked counterproductive in educating the world on how fascism is created, the precursors of a fascist state, and how fascism is facilitated.
I know this is true because many elements of fascist ideology exist today throughout most of the world. Many of the people here probably have jumped right on board with fascist ideology. Who here is anti-smoking, anti-drinking, anti-gay rights, pro Drug war. It may surprize some but these things are actually part of our culture, not a undesirable plague on it. All of these things do one thing, they limit freedom of choice in the pursuit of purity.

 

[Jay]

Did you read the link I posted, Alberta'sfinest?

 

[PoisonPete2]

I walked the grounds of two European 'Death Camps'. I could smell death in the soil. I was not witness to the atrocities, but do not doubt their occurrences. The American General who liberated Dachau was so incensed that he marched the population of the village throught the camp. They had ignored what had happened under their noses.
Yes, the Nazis were 'fairly' efficient murderers, but do not forget, they had a lot of help from IBM in maintaining that efficiency.

I would hope, in a free society, that it would be the right of an individual to believe or deny whatever they would. To have the freedom to promote whatever point of view they would, short of calling for violence against another. It is a form of oppression to make 'holacaust denial' a crime. It is a form of oppression for Israel to Occupy the West Bank and Gaza. The Jews have ignored a possible lesson of the holacaust ('do unto others ---')
The Jews do not have a copywrite on such atrocities. Remember the Arminians. The Hutus. Somalis. And what of the Iraquis under the bootheel of American Occupation?

 

[Doryman]

Re: RE: Holocaust Deniers

I walked the grounds of two European 'Death Camps'. I could smell death in the soil. I was not witness to the atrocities, but do not doubt their occurrences. The American General who liberated Dachau was so incensed that he marched the population of the village throught the camp. They had ignored what had happened under their noses.
Yes, the Nazis were 'fairly' efficient murderers, but do not forget, they had a lot of help from IBM in maintaining that efficiency.

I would hope, in a free society, that it would be the right of an individual to believe or deny whatever they would. To have the freedom to promote whatever point of view they would, short of calling for violence against another. It is a form of oppression to make 'holacaust denial' a crime. It is a form of oppression for Israel to Occupy the West Bank and Gaza. The Jews have ignored a possible lesson of the holacaust ('do unto others ---')
The Jews do not have a copywrite on such atrocities. Remember the Arminians. The Hutus. Somalis. And what of the Iraquis under the bootheel of American Occupation?

Errr... that;'s not actually a genocide there PP. That's a war. Whatever the Yanks are doing, they aren't marching Iraqi's off to the "showers".

 

[twotoques]

Fascinating.

As far as I know, I've never met a real holocaust denier. And here you are, right here.

Although, you seem to be backing down a bit.

Anyway, it's interesting to me that people can read documents, see movies, listen to eye witnesses & victims, watch documentaries........and still not believe.

As if everyone else is involved in a world wide conspiracy, but you're the one who sees through it all. To the actual truth.

By theorizing other possibilities I'm not saying that the holocaust didn't happen. I believe that even I could convince others through propaganda to do extremely bad things to other people, even coax them into a mindset where they believe they are even doing the right thing by doing so.

I think the only person you can convince is yourself.

You don't seem to be having much luck here, anyway.

Most people probably think that it's a bad thing to deny that the holocaust happened.

But I agree that it should be your right to say it if you want to. I'm wondering though, if by spreading this "false news", you haven't already contravened some of Canada's hate speech laws.

So are there any other myths that you feel need to be cleared up?

Any UFO theories? Kenney assassination? UN plans for one world government?

 

[cortez]

Fascinating.

As far as I know, I've never met a real holocaust denier. And here you are, right here.

how about anyone who denies or distorts the beothuk "holocaust"?

 

[Daz_Hockey]

it's a joke, it really is, the excuse that so many russians died as well is perfectly valid, but you dont mention the number of jews ALSO killed by the russians. And if we didnt have history it would leave people like Mugabe free to do it any time they felt like it.

No it's completly abhorrent that anyone can deny this happened, besides, the iranians should think about what Hitler said about muslims too "One must love a religion that allows one to die for his god" yeah lovely peace loving people.

 

[Doryman]

Fascinating.

As far as I know, I've never met a real holocaust denier. And here you are, right here.

how about anyone who denies or distorts the beothuk "holocaust"?

You mean Archaeologists and Historians? Yeah, those bespectacled buggers and their damn facts...

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: Holocaust Deniers

The Jews do not have a copywrite on such atrocities. Remember the Arminians. The Hutus. Somalis. And what of the Iraquis under the bootheel of American Occupation?

Errr... that;'s not actually a genocide there PP. That's a war. Whatever the Yanks are doing, they aren't marching Iraqi's off to the "showers".

RESPONSE .That was no 'war', that was an invasion by the world's most powerful nation, against a people already devistated by war and years of forced privation (read boycott).. No the Yanks were not 'marching the Iraqi's off to the "showers", they used incendiary munitions and 300 pound bombs to kill masses of people where they lived. The Yanks learned how to kill masses of civilians in Haroshima and N'agisaki. Now they collect many tens of thousands of young male Sunnis and process them through detention camps, selecting out some for special treatment to secret places. Torture, starvation, desecration of the captives' religious symbols. Its all good right? The scope of 'the Final Solution' was not disclosed until WW2 ended. But now we are in the unending war, and the application of a word such as 'genocide' may yet prove accurate.

"The victor will never be asked if he told the truth." Hitler

 

[cortez]

Fascinating.

As far as I know, I've never met a real holocaust denier. And here you are, right here.

how about anyone who denies or distorts the beothuk "holocaust"?

You mean Archaeologists and Historians? Yeah, those bespectacled buggers and their damn facts...

your just unable to accept the truth because you identify with the mythological goodigoodness of canada
had you been born German perhaps youd say that the nazis holocaust was also a fabrication in order to spare your feelings
or
if for example if canada had some involvement with the holocaust - like those boats filled to the brim with jewish refugees that were not permitted refuge here.

my memory fades but wasnt there a well known book about this
called ---- none is too many---

but perhaps thats not the work of historians as you say
but hey on any given topic you can have historians presenting evidence for multiple possibilities
i suppose what you do is pick the possiblity that makes you feel goodigood and claim the others are the work of pseudohistorians like pierre bertun

oblique query -wasnt mackensie king an antisemite

then theres the matter of invoking a statute of limitations on
attributable collective responsibilty - or in the language of the common man- hey that happened a long time ago--get over it

but that statute is not applied consistently is it.

what for you is a significant atrocity --lets say hypothetically viet nam,-----all those people
the americans supposaby killed maybe they all died of disease
maybe they all starved to death- maybe it was COMPLEX as you say about the beothuk
and maybe only a few dozen vietnameese were killed by the americans ---and the remaining 3 milllion dead were killed by the canadians who VOLUNTERED to go there
in any case--- that happened a long time ago---get over it

its a good thing that it wasnt Canada that invaded Viet Nam or right now you might be claiming that it was poppycock that 3 million were killed by the canadains- historians and archiologists have the facts -they died from a variety of reasons but genocide wasnt one of them---phew
goodigoodness has been preserved
you might invoke the observation that 3 million was a small number in relation to say ww2 which according to the war museum in paris took the lives of 50 million
phew- we still smell RELATIVELY good

you say you worked on this in university
what university
a Canadian university probably
but if an american were claiming he had studied this in an american university were to assert that the commonly and uncritically accepted body count vis a vis the vietnameese war was actually a gross exageration--- you might claim BIAS
something that im sure cant happen here

or not AS much--you might say

i am totally fascinated by the psychological mechanisms that operate in this culture (perhaps in every culture ill admitt)-- the perpetual cleansing of the pysche the washing of the swords, the distortion of memory, the shifting evasive identity, semantic evasions particularly
ie- having the RCMP pepper spray ,club and drag away peacefull protestors and thereby silencing them for exercising their right to voice displeasure at some of the repressive regimes of asia during that infamous APEC summit doesnt for you constitute an
- attack-
no-- you belittle this suppression of freedom of assembly and speech by suggesting that the word attack should only be used if a cruise missile were fired against them -WOW !

you also suggest that the word attack was invalid because the canadian government didnt use tanks against them like the chineese government did in tianemen square- ONE OF THE VERY OUTRAGES THE STUDENTS WERE PROTESTING AGAINST- ie the suppression of human rights in China- WOW!

No ... No complicity here folks..... nothing to see here folks..on with you...... go on home.

as for your pernicious sugggestion that i might -- burn down your embassy---
i can asssure you i am ethically incapable of doing anything like that
this whole argument began when you suggested that i get ridd of my western guilt-- guilt about the harm others have done in our name and with our tax dollars,
a certain anxiety about the brutal path that brought us here and that take us all over edge again
a guilt you claim to be free of.

How you get the idea that i would think the violence done to us by other cultures- reffering to the recent embassy burnings -is acceptable BECAUSE i point out the violence done BY us TO others
is beyond me.

quite frankly
i think that your mind set- guilt free- renders you more likely
to do something like that

and i woudnt advise you to try anything like that
i dont think that arguments like
---it happened like last week --along time ago
---or like ---only a few people got hurt
-- or like ---my historian-lawyer friend says alot worse crimes were committed by others today-- will take you very far in a court of law.

yes- generally our court system works pretty well

goodigoodness me