Here's the story of France with Pharaoh Ramesses

[eanassir]

You should try reading some actual world history...you may find it enlightening...

Why not? History is a valuable part of knowledge; but beware history may be ambiguous or there has been much confusion because of the desire of those who wrote it, transmit it and interpret it.

The Torah is a valuable source of history, but beware of much alteration and distortion that had been done in the Torah of Ezra the present Torah, much of it is included in the Old Testament)

The Glorious Quran gives more clear insight about the true history of many events; but some of skeptical and atheist do not like it; what shall we do then? Shall we leave the Quran of God for the sake of their blue eyes?

No, they were most likely in Canaan, after their leader Akhenaten, the Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, was expelled from Egypt for demanding his people abandon the worship of Amun in favour of the Aten. It is very likely that his dispossessed followers became the tribes of Israel...

How can you assert this? What's the evidence.
The story:
Joseph came to Egypt and became the minister of the king of Hyxos [not a pharaoh]; they were not Egyptians, then they were expelled, by the Pharaohs. The children of Israel were considered the allies of the Hyxos, and were persecuted because of this.

Then Moses was born at the time of the tyrant Pharaoh Ramassess ii, then Moses ran away to Sinai, and returned when he heard this Ramassess ii died, and his son ruled after his father. God sent him to Pharaoh and his family, and in case he would not believe, at least let the Children of Israel go out of Egypt.

The Egyptian Maat has 42 affirmations by which the devout would live their lives...the Jewish ten commandments are just a condensed version of them...​

God had sent His apostles to all nations, in their languages to warn them of the idolatry and association with God. Some of the distorted revelations and instructions of those apostles may reach us in some altered way. Moreover, Prophet Joseph had (as had his father and brethren) inherited the papers of Abraham including many instructions; all that was later included in the Book of Genesis.

The Ten Commandments were written by God Himself to be guidance to the people of God (who worshipped God alone); and were rementioned in the Glorious Quran; because they are the basic statements and instructions to every nation.

Why? Did his god suddenly develop writers cramp?​

God is Most Exalted in His Majesty; He does not play; so while the tablets were broken, they could be copied.

The torah was 'discovered' during Josiah's reign...no written document even mentions the torah before this time...
It was the torah that fueled Josiah's reforms and the reassertion of Judean control over the Israelites...
Very convenient that this document was 'discovered' by a backwater petty king who was then able to take with authority the reigns of power over the tribes...

Why do you believe such a thing without evidence, and leave the history and the Torah itself which tolds the history before Josiah.

Then how did the Children of Israel ruled in the holy land: their kings and their prophets before Josiah, and according to what law they worked? All this only to suit some of arranged words without any proof, and only following doubts and conjectures.

Don't you worry about me, brother...I'll be mouldering, soulless in my grave just as you will be...
Now doesn't that sound more peaceful than spending eternity listening to the maniacal rantings of churchy folk?

And if things prove opposite to what you deem, then what will your fate be? When man discovers that he has become an ethereal soul, not the material body which has become dust, then what will he do, other than dispairing and regretting for what he worked like the studen that does not study until the examination will come and will fail, and there will be no return to this life again, so that he may repair some of his defective work and change his doctrine? he will wish to spend all his wealth for the sake of God alone; according to this aya 23: 99-100

حَتَّى إِذَا جَاء أَحَدَهُمُ الْمَوْتُ قَالَ رَبِّ ارْجِعُونِ . لَعَلِّي أَعْمَلُ صَالِحًا فِيمَا تَرَكْتُ كَلَّا إِنَّهَا كَلِمَةٌ هُوَ قَائِلُهَا وَمِن وَرَائِهِم بَرْزَخٌ إِلَى يَوْمِ يُبْعَثُونَ​

The explanation:
(Till when death comes to one of them, he says: "O [angels of] my Lord, return me [to the Worldly life.]"

"That I may do good in [the wealth] that I left behind."
No, this is merely a word that he speaks;
but behind them there is a barrier [: Satan will hinder them from expending their wealth for the sake of God] until the day they [will die and their souls] will be sent forth [from their bodies to the world of souls in the afterlife.] )


eanassir
http://man-after-death.t35.com
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

 

[eanassir]

interesting story. This fellow is a scientist. he sees a mummy with salt in it, can't understand why it's so well preserved, then someone reads him a book which says that God said a body would be preserved as a sign and suddenly the scientist decides not only that this is why the body is preserved BUT that he also believes everything else in the book without reading it? He must have been an awful scientist. Jumping to conclusions like that can make you look a total pillock.

No, he was truly a scientist; then he studied the Quran and the Bible and wrote his valuable book:​

Quran, Bible and Science
by Maurice Bucaille​

It is an excellent book; see its pdf here:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/word_secret_directory/docs%2F376828.pdf?Signature=DMDC9FH%2F%2BrwGeA3FZW VQlWX5OjE%3D&Expires=1225432227&AWSAccessKeyId=0QD Q3FGYV5Q7TY85W4R2​

Or see its contents and you can click on any item in the list of contents, here:
The Bible, The Qur'an and Science​

Moreover, it is a matter of guidance; as in the aya 2: 120​

وَلَن تَرْضَى عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلاَ النَّصَارَى حَتَّى تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ قُلْ إِنَّ هُدَى اللّهِ هُوَ الْهُدَى وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءهُم بَعْدَ الَّذِي جَاءكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ مَا لَكَ مِنَ اللّهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلاَ نَصِيرٍ​

The explanation:
(Never will Jews or Christians be pleased with you [Mohammed] unless you follow their creed. ​

Say: "The guidance of God [revealed in the Quran] is the [true] guidance." ​

But if you follow their vain desires even after the knowledge that has come to you, then – from God – you will have no protecting friend nor any helper.)​

So it is a matter of guidance; whoever God wants to guide, He will be guided aright, and non can mislead him; like the English physician (doctor) who worked in the British navy and who converted after reading the meaning of the aya 24: 40 which thousands and millions read before and after him, but its effect was on him in particular, and God guided him after reading its meaning in an English translation:​

أَوْ كَظُلُمَاتٍ فِي بَحْرٍ لُّجِّيٍّ يَغْشَاهُ مَوْجٌ مِّن فَوْقِهِ مَوْجٌ مِّن فَوْقِهِ سَحَابٌ ظُلُمَاتٌ بَعْضُهَا فَوْقَ بَعْضٍ إِذَا أَخْرَجَ يَدَهُ لَمْ يَكَدْ يَرَاهَا وَمَن لَّمْ يَجْعَلِ اللَّهُ لَهُ نُورًا فَمَا لَهُ مِن نُّورٍ​

The explanation:
(Or [his likeness is] as depths of darkness on a deep sea covered by billows [of water], above which are billows [of air], above which are clouds; layers of darkness piled one upon another; when he puts forth his hand, he almost cannot see it. And to whomsoever God assigns no light, no light has he.)​

So he asked: Was Mohammed a sailorman? They answered him: " He did never travel on the sea; he did only travelled two travels to Syria by caravans on land only." He said: "Such a description is of one that saw much of tempests and storms on the sea, so that he may describe such a description; this Quran is certainly from God, not from Mohammed." and he converted.​

The interpretation:
God – be glorified – likened the work of the idolater (and the associater) in this World; even if it was a good work; it is like a traveler on a ship in the sea, and there is a tempestuous weather: it was dark night, the sky is cloudy, the waves of the sea is so great, and it was a complete darkness.​

Then his luggage falls in the sea: if the luggage is light, it will float and go with the waves; and if the luggage is heavy it will sink in the deep sea; and in both cases he will lose his luggage and cannot find it in such weather circumstances.​

So similarly, the idolater and associater (who associates others with God) will lose the reward of his good work and will not be recompensed for his work; because his work was not exclusively for God alone, but he made it shared between God and others like Jesus, saints, imams and others. ​

eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Why not? History is a valuable part of knowledge; but beware history may be ambiguous or there has been much confusion because of the desire of those who wrote it, transmit it and interpret it.

True enough...however there are histories that can be read that contain no agendas other than revealing truth...

You won't find them in any mosque, church or synagogue though...

The Torah is a valuable source of history, but beware of much alteration and distortion that had been done in the Torah of Ezra the present Torah, much of it is included in the Old Testament)

Ezra's Torah

The Glorious Quran gives more clear insight about the true history of many events; but some of skeptical and atheist do not like it; what shall we do then? Shall we leave the Quran of God for the sake of their blue eyes?

Well there would be the beginnings of wisdom...

How can you assert this? What's the evidence.
The story:
Joseph came to Egypt and became the minister of the king of Hyxos [not a pharaoh]; they were not Egyptians, then they were expelled, by the Pharaohs. The children of Israel were considered the allies of the Hyxos, and were persecuted because of this.

Then Moses was born at the time of the tyrant Pharaoh Ramassess ii, then Moses ran away to Sinai, and returned when he heard this Ramassess ii died, and his son ruled after his father. God sent him to Pharaoh and his family, and in case he would not believe, at least let the Children of Israel go out of Egypt.

Moses was a fictitious character likely based upon the real life Pharaoh Amenhotep IV and his revolution against polytheistic worshippers of Amun in favour of monotheistic Aten.

God had sent His apostles to all nations, in their languages to warn them of the idolatry and association with God. Some of the distorted revelations and instructions of those apostles may reach us in some altered way. Moreover, Prophet Joseph had (as had his father and brethren) inherited the papers of Abraham including many instructions; all that was later included in the Book of Genesis.

Papers of Abraham? I didn't think they had paper in Abraham's alleged time...

The Ten Commandments were written by God Himself to be guidance to the people of God (who worshipped God alone); and were rementioned in the Glorious Quran; because they are the basic statements and instructions to every nation.

All I'm saying is that they appeared first in the Egyptian Book of the Dead...

Egypt: Egyptian Book of the Dead

You should really familiarize yourself with the Book of the Dead, because indirectly your Quran has it's origins here as well...

God is Most Exalted in His Majesty; He does not play; so while the tablets were broken, they could be copied.

Most exalted in hi majesty, yet couldn't make a simple facsimile...doesn't seem all that exalted in majesty to me...

Why do you believe such a thing without evidence, and leave the history and the Torah itself which tolds the history before Josiah.

Then how did the Children of Israel ruled in the holy land: their kings and their prophets before Josiah, and according to what law they worked? All this only to suit some of arranged words without any proof, and only following doubts and conjectures.

Josiah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Critical Scholarship on the Reform of King Josiah

While the Biblical text relates that the scroll was "found", this has been met with skepticism among some modern critics: the view of the English deists of the 16th century (Hertz 1936), that the book was a forgery created to help centralize power under Josiah, is held today among some Biblical scholars. (However, scholars such as W.R. Smith, Rudolf Kittel, Dillman and Driver disagree, pointing out that priestly forgery of the Deuteronomic text was unlikely, as the text placed restrictions on the privileges of the priestly class, who were a thorn in the side of King Josiah.)
In the ancient Near East it was commonplace for religious scrolls to be deposited in temple walls when they were constructed (Hertz 1936), and according to the Swiss Egyptologist Édouard Naville, this was the custom amongst the Jews at the time of Solomon. It would have been more unusual if such scrolls were not found during the renovation of a temple building, and Naville recounts a similar find recounted in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. It is interesting to note in this respect that the specific text cited by Naville is one of many which are attributed to famous figures of the past, typically sons of a Pharaoh, and which are all known to have been written at a much later date.
On the assumption that Deuteronomy was forged by Josiah's priests, these scholars go on to propose that the core narrative from Genesis to 2 Kings up to Josiah's reign comprise a "Deuteronomistic History" (DtrH) written during that reign. This history compiled the hypothesised "J", "E", and "D" narratives, all already textual at this point, of which the J narrative at this time would have extended into the history of David's court; the DtrH further attempted to historicise narratives of the times of Joshua and the Judges. The hypothetical DtrH is distinguished from the surviving Biblical books in that it omits the priestly "P" narrative. The DtrH portrayed King Josiah as the ideal ruler as Deuteronomy had defined it, and thus as the rightful ruler of Judah. (This interpretation is often confused with the position of "Biblical Minimalism", which denies that David and Solomon ruled a united kingdom; but Baruch Halpern has noted that however tendentious, DtrH must still be treated as a history, and as largely accurate at least for the reign of Josiah.) See Dating the Bible and The Bible and history. Such claims are detailed in Who Were the Early Israelites? by William G. Dever (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI, 2003). Another such book is The Bible Unearthed by Neil A. Silberman and Israel Finkelstein (Simon and Schuster, New York, 2001).

And if things prove opposite to what you deem, then what will your fate be? When man discovers that he has become an ethereal soul, not the material body which has become dust, then what will he do<snip>

Well, you see, because I hold a world view that is unhindered by supernatural explanations, I can safely say, as I have already in this thread, that I, like you, will decay and become nothing...worm food as it were...

I regret now the time that I waste, for if I am to make my mark on this world, then I had best do it before I expire...because there will be no more regrets after that...

 

[eanassir]

True enough...however there are histories that can be read that contain no agendas other than revealing truth...

You won't find them in any mosque, church or synagogue though...

Ezra's Torah

Well there would be the beginnings of wisdom...

Moses was a fictitious character likely based upon the real life Pharaoh Amenhotep IV and his revolution against polytheistic worshippers of Amun in favour of monotheistic Aten.

Papers of Abraham? I didn't think they had paper in Abraham's alleged time...

All I'm saying is that they appeared first in the Egyptian Book of the Dead...

Egypt: Egyptian Book of the Dead

You should really familiarize yourself with the Book of the Dead, because indirectly your Quran has it's origins here as well...

Most exalted in hi majesty, yet couldn't make a simple facsimile...doesn't seem all that exalted in majesty to me...
Josiah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, you see, because I hold a world view that is unhindered by supernatural explanations, I can safely say, as I have already in this thread, that I, like you, will decay and become nothing...worm food as it were...

I regret now the time that I waste, for if I am to make my mark on this world, then I had best do it before I expire...because there will be no more regrets after that...

Generally speaking, there are many evasions here:

First: you believe many things following only conjecture and guessing: Moses, Jesus and Mohammed are imaginary persons, while some Pharaohs and other kings are true personalities; because they have been mentioned in some of the archeological excavations. It is not necessary that everything seen in the excavation is true, and the excavations are some way of finding part of the truth and confirming the truth.

Second: The Book of Deuteronomy was found during the reconstruction of the temple at Jerusalem; it does not mean they had not any Deuteronomy Book; but it may mean they had some distorted copy at that time.

"They had such a custom of burying such documents in the walls of such important building, [and this way is still till our present days.]

In addition, the Deuteronomy that was found at the time of Joshea, belonged to a long time before him; because it includes encouraging them to fight the Canaanites and the Amalecites (Deut. 20: 16-18; 25: 17-19); and there was no need for this at the time of Joshea, and that they were looking for new victories of the Hebrews; while it was at that time not a matter of victories and conquests but rather how to keep the land which they have occupied." –– the source is in Arabic
http://st-takla.org/Full-Free-Coptic-Books/FreeCopticBooks-002-Holy-Arabic-Bible-Dictionary/28_E/E_313.html

The word "Deuteronomy" means: repeated twice; it denotes that the statements have been repeated a second time in this Book after being revealed in the previous three books Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers; here in the Book of Deuteronomy the statements have been re-mentioned and systemized.

In the Quran there is also some "deuteronomy" or repeated stories: these are the stories of the disbelieving nations that disbelieved their apostles and were accordingly destroyed by God Almighty:
These are : the story of Adam's punishment following his disobedience, the story of Noah, Aad, Thamood, Shuaib, Lot's people, and Pharaoh's drowning. Such stories had been mentioned in the Torah, then were repeated in the Quran; like this aya 39: 23​

اللَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابًا مُّتَشَابِهًا مَّثَانِيَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ جُلُودُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلِينُ جُلُودُهُمْ وَقُلُوبُهُمْ إِلَى ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ يَشَاء وَمَن يُضْلِلْ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ هَادٍ​

The explanation:
(God has revealed the best relation: a book [: the Quran] similar [to the relation of the Law: stories of the Law] repeated,

at which the skins of those - who fear their Lord - tremble with quivering [for fearing such terrible retribution of those disbelieving nations], then their skins and their hearts do soften to the admonition of God.

Such is God's guidance with which He guides whom He pleases; but whomsoever God misguides, there will be none to guide him.)

Moreover, the present Book of Deuteronomy is not the original book; it is the book written by the priest Ezra son of Siraeh following their return from the Babylonian captivity.

Third: Your reply about the afterlife is only an evasion and is not the correct answer.


eanassir
http://man-after-death.t35.com
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

 

[eanassir]

True enough...however there are histories that can be read that contain no agendas other than revealing truth...
You won't find them in any mosque, church or synagogue though...
Ezra's Torah
Well there would be the beginnings of wisdom...

Moses was a fictitious character likely based upon the real life Pharaoh Amenhotep IV and his revolution against polytheistic worshippers of Amun in favour of monotheistic Aten.
Papers of Abraham? I didn't think they had paper in Abraham's alleged time...
All I'm saying is that they appeared first in the Egyptian Book of the Dead...
Egypt: Egyptian Book of the Dead
You should really familiarize yourself with the Book of the Dead, because indirectly your Quran has it's origins here as well...

Most exalted in hi majesty, yet couldn't make a simple facsimile...doesn't seem all that exalted in majesty to me...
Josiah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Well, you see, because I hold a world view that is unhindered by supernatural explanations, I can safely say, as I have already in this thread, that I, like you, will decay and become nothing...worm food as it were...

I regret now the time that I waste, for if I am to make my mark on this world, then I had best do it before I expire...because there will be no more regrets after that...

Fourth: It is a matter of faith: the one that believes in God will also believe in the next afterlife, as will he believe in angels, Paradise, Hell, the Judgment and the Requital;
whereas the one that does not believe in God, almost he will not believe in the afterlife, and the angels, Paradise, Hell, the Judgment and the Requital; because this belongs to the "unseen" or the "unknown" and the "forefuture".

This is in the Quran 2: 2-3​

ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ . الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلاةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ​

The explanation:
(That Scripture, whereof there is no doubt: guidance to those who ward off [God's punishment.]

Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them.)

Fifth:
In the same link that you quoted: " It is interesting to note in this respect that the specific text cited by Naville is one of many which are attributed to famous figures of the past, typically sons of a Pharaoh, and which are all known to have been written at a much later date."


And as I said God – be glorified – had sent many apostles (innumerable) to every nation in their languages; some of these messages reached us in distorted way; like Gilgamesh, Hammurabi code, and such some contents of this book of the dead may be some distortions of some old and very ancient messages of these prophets and apostles.

I asked Abu abd-Allah about Buddha was he a prophet or not?
He said: "I don't know; we have not been told about him neither in the Torah nor in the Quran; but if he invites people to God alone without associate, he may be a prophet or else he is not."

This is in the Quran 4: 164​

وَرُسُلاً قَدْ قَصَصْنَاهُمْ عَلَيْكَ مِن قَبْلُ وَرُسُلاً لَّمْ نَقْصُصْهُمْ عَلَيْكَ وَكَلَّمَ اللّهُ مُوسَى تَكْلِيمًا​

The explanation:
(And messengers We mentioned to you [Mohammed] before,
and messengers We have not mentioned to you –
But Moses did God speak to, with a [hearable] speech.)

Sixth:
About Abraham's papers; I have translated it like that; it may be translated as Abraham's scripture; might have been written on papyrus or parchment; the instructions and revelations from the time of Abraham have been included in the Book of Geneses which was not revealed to Moses, but was before him inherited from the past prophets: Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and his brothers.
This is in the Quran 87: 18-19​

إِنَّ هَذَا لَفِي الصُّحُفِ الْأُولَى . صُحُفِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَى​

The explanation:
(Surely, [We mentioned all] this in the former [heavenly] scriptures:
The scriptures of Abraham and Moses.)



eanassir
http://man-after-death.t35.com
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

 

[Vanni Fucci]

First: you believe many things following only conjecture and guessing: Moses, Jesus and Mohammed are imaginary persons, while some Pharaohs and other kings are true personalities; because they have been mentioned in some of the archeological excavations. It is not necessary that everything seen in the excavation is true, and the excavations are some way of finding part of the truth and confirming the truth.​

Agreed, I tend to agree with the minimalist view, as there is scant evidence to prove otherwise.

Second: The Book of Deuteronomy was found during the reconstruction of the temple at Jerusalem; it does not mean they had not any Deuteronomy Book; but it may mean they had some distorted copy at that time.

There is no reference anywhere to Deuteronomy, or the Torah before Josiah.

In addition, the Deuteronomy that was found at the time of Joshea, belonged to a long time before him; because it includes encouraging them to fight the Canaanites and the Amalecites (Deut. 20: 16-18; 25: 17-19); and there was no need for this at the time of Joshea, and that they were looking for new victories of the Hebrews; while it was at that time not a matter of victories and conquests but rather how to keep the land which they have occupied." –– the source is in Arabic

What they were looking for was to establish the prevalency of Israel. In order to accomplish this they needed a history of their god favouring the Israelites above all others. In a sense it was written as a prequel to everything from Josiah's time onwards, and establishes Josiah's right to rule the Israelites.

The word "Deuteronomy" means: repeated twice; it denotes that the statements have been repeated a second time in this Book after being revealed in the previous three books Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers; here in the Book of Deuteronomy the statements have been re-mentioned and systemized.

This only shows that the Romans realized that some of the stories in Deuteronomy were told earlier in the Pentateuch. It tells us nothing about by whom or when they were actually written.​

 

[eanassir]

It seems that Vanni Fucci has not read the second part of my reply: #25 . Are you the same Dex Sinis? :smile: