GOD
- Thread starter Bubble
- Start date
Re: RE: GOD
I just got into work, and they actually expect me to do my job...I'll look at it when I get a chance, ok...
Jay said:
I just got into work, and they actually expect me to do my job...I'll look at it when I get a chance, ok...
Ok...I've got a moment now for a quick post...
As I stated earlier, there is no archaelogical evidence to support the notion that Israel has any more claim to that land than anyone else...there is no evidence that Moses existed, there is no evidence of that there was a mass exodus from Egypt...there is no evidence that the people of Israel were in captivity in Egypt...
Oh...and the OT Testament was written in the 7th century BCE...
http://www.theosophical.org.uk/Biblunsbd.htm
In 1948 following the persecution of the Jews in Germany, the world felt pity for them and with the aid of the UN, US and Britain, the state of Israel was established by Zionists wishing to fulfill biblical prophesy...
A Palestinian Perspective
A Jewish Perspective
As I stated earlier, there is no archaelogical evidence to support the notion that Israel has any more claim to that land than anyone else...there is no evidence that Moses existed, there is no evidence of that there was a mass exodus from Egypt...there is no evidence that the people of Israel were in captivity in Egypt...
Oh...and the OT Testament was written in the 7th century BCE...
http://www.theosophical.org.uk/Biblunsbd.htm
In 1948 following the persecution of the Jews in Germany, the world felt pity for them and with the aid of the UN, US and Britain, the state of Israel was established by Zionists wishing to fulfill biblical prophesy...
A Palestinian Perspective
A Jewish Perspective
As to the authenticity of the Patriarch Abraham, and his somewhat spurious origins, I will only say this:
Ur is considered by many archaeologists to be the oldest city discovered to date, (I disagree, but that's another matter entirely), and the Chaldeans were a civilzation that occupied that city. This problem with this story is that the Chaldean civilization did not emerge until around 600 BCE. There was no earlier civilization known as the Chaldeans, and yet the biblical scholars have Abraham pegged as living between approximately 2000 BCE and 1870 BCE. Obviously the Bible is wrong in this matter.
It is interesting to note that it was the under Chaldean King Nebuchadnezzar II that the Jews enslaved or otherwise forced into exile.
It was also during this time that the Tower of Babel is believed to have been built...if it in fact existed...
Ur is considered by many archaeologists to be the oldest city discovered to date, (I disagree, but that's another matter entirely), and the Chaldeans were a civilzation that occupied that city. This problem with this story is that the Chaldean civilization did not emerge until around 600 BCE. There was no earlier civilization known as the Chaldeans, and yet the biblical scholars have Abraham pegged as living between approximately 2000 BCE and 1870 BCE. Obviously the Bible is wrong in this matter.
It is interesting to note that it was the under Chaldean King Nebuchadnezzar II that the Jews enslaved or otherwise forced into exile.
It was also during this time that the Tower of Babel is believed to have been built...if it in fact existed...
Re: RE: GOD
I think some people won't have one if they're companies ever tracked their internet habits. :wink:
Slurpie said:
I think some people won't have one if they're companies ever tracked their internet habits. :wink:
Re: RE: GOD
Hey now...I'm not browsing porn or anything...this is legitimate job related research I'm doing... :wink:
Toro said:
Hey now...I'm not browsing porn or anything...this is legitimate job related research I'm doing... :wink:
Well if the "Christian Church" and their "God" is the only god, then why did the diferent area's of the world have diferent views/beliefs before people were able to travel the globe?
So many diferent diferent regions, and all came up their own diferent beliefs and none are the same? Buddism, Hinduism, Native Spirits etc,To name a few. Christianity is only 1/3 of world population and if they were right why are not their more?
How come none of you christians answered this?
So many diferent diferent regions, and all came up their own diferent beliefs and none are the same? Buddism, Hinduism, Native Spirits etc,To name a few. Christianity is only 1/3 of world population and if they were right why are not their more?
How come none of you christians answered this?
Well every time this topic comes us, I go for the horse sense, as in toby the talking horse.
.
Does God exist? This ancient question just won't go away. Since human history began, as soon as someone thought he had the answer, someone else came along to challenge it. The question endures, and now rests in the ether, waiting to spring on college students, retreating after the age of thirty, surfacing for the odd cocktail party, and reemerging with full force in the "philosophical years." But before we discuss this complicated question, let me introduce myself. I'm Toby, the talking horse.
Being a talking horse leaves me with plenty of time to ponder these big issues. No one rides me, because I just tell them to get off. So there's a lot of standing time. Sometimes I sing at night, to pass the hours; sometimes I court the little beauty in the next pasture, Lily. Sometimes I develop powers, which is fun. In fact, right now you are not reading this; you only think you are. You are actually calling your bank by Touch-Tone phone and transferring all your money to my account.
"Ask yourself this: Do I really need to know the answer to this question?" Mostly, though, I do anagrams in my head, like many other horses. When you see a horse standing in a field staring at you, he's really rearranging letters in his head: "tide, diet, edit. ..." It's a horsy thing to do. So the first thing I do with a question as big as the one we're talking about is pass it through my head and rearrange the letters. "Does ... odes ... " Not much there. Then there's the obvious "god ... dog," and the fruitless "exist." Engaging in this little neurotic exercise enables me to move on to the next step.
Ask yourself this: Do I really need to know the answer to this question? I think if you are honest with yourself, you will realize that a yea-or-neigh answer wouldn't really change your life much. Although a neigh might free up a lot of time now spent worshipping. In fact, I don't imagine God is really keen on worshipping. You can take it from me, Toby the talking horse — he's as humble as the next God, and a simple thank-you is all that's required.
If you ask me what came first, the question or the belief, I'd say that the belief preceded the question. The question does not lead to belief; the question leads to disbelief. The belief, on the other hand, exists in almost every human culture, even though you sometimes get people praying to dolls made of dung. The belief does not so naturally arise in animals, which makes me, a horse, the perfect objective moderator.
I'm going to make a ground rule. No arguing. Arguing is what they do on MSNBC, and what good does that do anyone? A big horselaugh to the human idea that reason ever actually changed anyone's mind or proved anything beyond a person's ability to argue. I could argue that the sky is green if I wanted. And win. Why? Because I could study enough to corner you on every proposition; I could become quick-minded on the green-sky-issue. I could have your head spinning with the twists and curves I would throw at you. And I'm a horse. But I could still do it. So imagine what a well-oiled purveyor of religious wisdom could do.
Another ground rule. No definitions. We could sit here till the cows come home, which in my world is not a metaphor, and discuss the definitions of important words. But let me tell you, we wouldn't get anywhere. It would be easy to reduce the question of God's existence to a problem of semantics. But we're beyond that now. I'm glad my name is Toby, because it proves my point. I am my own definition. I am not "Lucky," or "Copper," or "Ginger," or any other noun. Let's let God be his own definition, just like me.
I have to tell you something about Lily — She has a yellow mane. I was just thinking about her.
Another thing: please do not mention the phrase "organized religion." I already know where you're going with it, and that argument is for college students who want to have something to talk about when they smoke pot. We're way beyond that discussion.
You may have no way to understand how wonderful a yellow mane is. Well, on Lily it's wonderful. Sometimes at night she will slide along the fence and come close to me, and she will sigh her warm breath on my nose, and I will rub my head against her yellow mane, and the smell will stay with me until morning. She also has a great asshole. Oh, I forgot. You're human and you think that's vulgar. Lily is about the closest thing to God that I've come across. She is physical and spiritual, and she will look at me, and lean into me, and flip her mane so it brushes me, and even though she can't talk, it's as though in those moments she's saying, "Toby."
Lily. Illy. Yill. Toby. Boty. Otby.
There are certain people who seem to know that the answer to the question is affirmative. And it makes them want to dress up in robes, and capes and cloaks and special hats, or to wear very thick makeup and comb their hair real high. Other people seem to believe the opposite. Some people are fine with this, but other people can be gloomy. For those people, there is a special word of one vowel and several nervous, unrelated consonants: angst.
Tangs, gnats, stang.
You're probably wondering, since we can't use logic, and we can't argue and we can't define, just how are we going to come up with an answer? Well, if you were me, you wouldn't worry. But you're just about two legs shy of being me. So I suggest you do what I do: One evening, munch down a nice bale of hay and a few oats. Take off your blinders and stand out in a big open field, and cock your head back and stare up at the stars. You will know that there is a God. Then, one day when things are not going your way, stop and consider the same question. You will know that there is no God. For a horse, two contradictory ideas can both be true at the same moment. This is what separates you from me. It is why the horse didn't invent the computer but did invent — and not a lot of people know this — the sofa. Once you allow impossible ideas to coexist in your brain, you are on your way to being a very fine beast of burden. Here's a little horse sense of my own: whatever answer you choose at any given moment is the correct one. And if some tight-lipped, close-cropped, neat little know-it-all challenges you, just tell them that you learned it from Toby the talking horse.
toby the talking horse/aka Steve Martin
.
Does God exist? This ancient question just won't go away. Since human history began, as soon as someone thought he had the answer, someone else came along to challenge it. The question endures, and now rests in the ether, waiting to spring on college students, retreating after the age of thirty, surfacing for the odd cocktail party, and reemerging with full force in the "philosophical years." But before we discuss this complicated question, let me introduce myself. I'm Toby, the talking horse.
Being a talking horse leaves me with plenty of time to ponder these big issues. No one rides me, because I just tell them to get off. So there's a lot of standing time. Sometimes I sing at night, to pass the hours; sometimes I court the little beauty in the next pasture, Lily. Sometimes I develop powers, which is fun. In fact, right now you are not reading this; you only think you are. You are actually calling your bank by Touch-Tone phone and transferring all your money to my account.
"Ask yourself this: Do I really need to know the answer to this question?" Mostly, though, I do anagrams in my head, like many other horses. When you see a horse standing in a field staring at you, he's really rearranging letters in his head: "tide, diet, edit. ..." It's a horsy thing to do. So the first thing I do with a question as big as the one we're talking about is pass it through my head and rearrange the letters. "Does ... odes ... " Not much there. Then there's the obvious "god ... dog," and the fruitless "exist." Engaging in this little neurotic exercise enables me to move on to the next step.
Ask yourself this: Do I really need to know the answer to this question? I think if you are honest with yourself, you will realize that a yea-or-neigh answer wouldn't really change your life much. Although a neigh might free up a lot of time now spent worshipping. In fact, I don't imagine God is really keen on worshipping. You can take it from me, Toby the talking horse — he's as humble as the next God, and a simple thank-you is all that's required.
If you ask me what came first, the question or the belief, I'd say that the belief preceded the question. The question does not lead to belief; the question leads to disbelief. The belief, on the other hand, exists in almost every human culture, even though you sometimes get people praying to dolls made of dung. The belief does not so naturally arise in animals, which makes me, a horse, the perfect objective moderator.
I'm going to make a ground rule. No arguing. Arguing is what they do on MSNBC, and what good does that do anyone? A big horselaugh to the human idea that reason ever actually changed anyone's mind or proved anything beyond a person's ability to argue. I could argue that the sky is green if I wanted. And win. Why? Because I could study enough to corner you on every proposition; I could become quick-minded on the green-sky-issue. I could have your head spinning with the twists and curves I would throw at you. And I'm a horse. But I could still do it. So imagine what a well-oiled purveyor of religious wisdom could do.
Another ground rule. No definitions. We could sit here till the cows come home, which in my world is not a metaphor, and discuss the definitions of important words. But let me tell you, we wouldn't get anywhere. It would be easy to reduce the question of God's existence to a problem of semantics. But we're beyond that now. I'm glad my name is Toby, because it proves my point. I am my own definition. I am not "Lucky," or "Copper," or "Ginger," or any other noun. Let's let God be his own definition, just like me.
I have to tell you something about Lily — She has a yellow mane. I was just thinking about her.
Another thing: please do not mention the phrase "organized religion." I already know where you're going with it, and that argument is for college students who want to have something to talk about when they smoke pot. We're way beyond that discussion.
You may have no way to understand how wonderful a yellow mane is. Well, on Lily it's wonderful. Sometimes at night she will slide along the fence and come close to me, and she will sigh her warm breath on my nose, and I will rub my head against her yellow mane, and the smell will stay with me until morning. She also has a great asshole. Oh, I forgot. You're human and you think that's vulgar. Lily is about the closest thing to God that I've come across. She is physical and spiritual, and she will look at me, and lean into me, and flip her mane so it brushes me, and even though she can't talk, it's as though in those moments she's saying, "Toby."
Lily. Illy. Yill. Toby. Boty. Otby.
There are certain people who seem to know that the answer to the question is affirmative. And it makes them want to dress up in robes, and capes and cloaks and special hats, or to wear very thick makeup and comb their hair real high. Other people seem to believe the opposite. Some people are fine with this, but other people can be gloomy. For those people, there is a special word of one vowel and several nervous, unrelated consonants: angst.
Tangs, gnats, stang.
You're probably wondering, since we can't use logic, and we can't argue and we can't define, just how are we going to come up with an answer? Well, if you were me, you wouldn't worry. But you're just about two legs shy of being me. So I suggest you do what I do: One evening, munch down a nice bale of hay and a few oats. Take off your blinders and stand out in a big open field, and cock your head back and stare up at the stars. You will know that there is a God. Then, one day when things are not going your way, stop and consider the same question. You will know that there is no God. For a horse, two contradictory ideas can both be true at the same moment. This is what separates you from me. It is why the horse didn't invent the computer but did invent — and not a lot of people know this — the sofa. Once you allow impossible ideas to coexist in your brain, you are on your way to being a very fine beast of burden. Here's a little horse sense of my own: whatever answer you choose at any given moment is the correct one. And if some tight-lipped, close-cropped, neat little know-it-all challenges you, just tell them that you learned it from Toby the talking horse.
toby the talking horse/aka Steve Martin
With all the problems on this planet I just wish the Greys would take me away somewhere more peaceful.
And I am actually dead serious too, no matter what I try to do this world is bound for self destruction, we can not get along at all, and fight like idiots over every little stupid thing. We fight at home, within our cities, provinces, countries and internationally, like wtf for? It accomplishes nothing. If we spent our resources on Space exploration instead of war we could have bases on Mars and the moon, but no we have to bomb and kill each other.
Now if there was a so called "God" or "Gods" why do they allow this destruction to continue?If they gave us free will, fine and dandy but why don't they make an appearance now and then? Because there is no "god" or "gods", thats why.
And I am actually dead serious too, no matter what I try to do this world is bound for self destruction, we can not get along at all, and fight like idiots over every little stupid thing. We fight at home, within our cities, provinces, countries and internationally, like wtf for? It accomplishes nothing. If we spent our resources on Space exploration instead of war we could have bases on Mars and the moon, but no we have to bomb and kill each other.
Now if there was a so called "God" or "Gods" why do they allow this destruction to continue?If they gave us free will, fine and dandy but why don't they make an appearance now and then? Because there is no "god" or "gods", thats why.
Re: RE: GOD
The faithful will tell you free choice...but then that's because they just don't know...
no1important said:
The faithful will tell you free choice...but then that's because they just don't know...
Once you allow impossible ideas to coexist in your brain, you are on your way to being ....
---------------------------------------------- Steve Martin, aka Toby the Talking Horse...per Peapod
That whole post is just about the best thing I've seen in this whole thread...
Worth repeating the whole last paragraph:
You're probably wondering, since we can't use logic, and we can't argue and we can't define, just how are we going to come up with an answer?
Well, if you were me, you wouldn't worry.
But you're just about two legs shy of being me. So I suggest you do what I do: One evening, munch down a nice bale of hay and a few oats. Take off your blinders and stand out in a big open field, and cock your head back and stare up at the stars. You will know that there is a God. Then, one day when things are not going your way, stop and consider the same question. You will know that there is no God. For a horse, two contradictory ideas can both be true at the same moment. This is what separates you from me. It is why the horse didn't invent the computer but did invent — and not a lot of people know this — the sofa. Once you allow impossible ideas to coexist in your brain, you are on your way to being a very fine beast of burden. Here's a little horse sense of my own: whatever answer you choose at any given moment is the correct one. And if some tight-lipped, close-cropped, neat little know-it-all challenges you, just tell them that you learned it from Toby the talking horse.
---------------------------------------------- Steve Martin, aka Toby the Talking Horse...per Peapod
That whole post is just about the best thing I've seen in this whole thread...
Worth repeating the whole last paragraph:
You're probably wondering, since we can't use logic, and we can't argue and we can't define, just how are we going to come up with an answer?
Well, if you were me, you wouldn't worry.
But you're just about two legs shy of being me. So I suggest you do what I do: One evening, munch down a nice bale of hay and a few oats. Take off your blinders and stand out in a big open field, and cock your head back and stare up at the stars. You will know that there is a God. Then, one day when things are not going your way, stop and consider the same question. You will know that there is no God. For a horse, two contradictory ideas can both be true at the same moment. This is what separates you from me. It is why the horse didn't invent the computer but did invent — and not a lot of people know this — the sofa. Once you allow impossible ideas to coexist in your brain, you are on your way to being a very fine beast of burden. Here's a little horse sense of my own: whatever answer you choose at any given moment is the correct one. And if some tight-lipped, close-cropped, neat little know-it-all challenges you, just tell them that you learned it from Toby the talking horse.
When it comes to the bible, christians fail to realize that the bible, even though its to be as gods words, was written by man. Man who do make mistakes, errors and what not. God himself did not personally write the bible. Also that the many different versions of the bible sometimes say almost completely different things.
The bible when translated from the original language(s) is never translated exact word for word, it is geared more towards the beliefs of the translator and how they interpret how the words originally written is suppose to mean. This is quite evident, when comparing bibles of the different christian denominations and the non-denominational churches.
Clearly the bible has errors, made by man, that one practically would have to read each and every different translated bible, and then hope they pick the right passages from each one. Or they can get original language versions and translate themselves. With so many different translations, how is one to know which is the absolute right version, without translating themselves? And also how do they know it is the right religion in the first place. How do we know in absolute fact that Muslim, Buddhist, Christianity etc.. all didn't originate from same events, all from one area? But only through the years have changed as the words get translated differently and how stories change little by little when passed on through generations.
In the medieval times, the leaders of the church were infact the rulers of the land. There may have been an actually a king, but the true power were the priests of the church. We do know that sometimes, rulers would change written history to better suit their needs and wants. How do we know, that some priests didn't do the same with the bible, when certain passages contradicted what the priests were telling people? That they didn't change any scriptures to better keep a hold on the people of the land?
The bible when translated from the original language(s) is never translated exact word for word, it is geared more towards the beliefs of the translator and how they interpret how the words originally written is suppose to mean. This is quite evident, when comparing bibles of the different christian denominations and the non-denominational churches.
Clearly the bible has errors, made by man, that one practically would have to read each and every different translated bible, and then hope they pick the right passages from each one. Or they can get original language versions and translate themselves. With so many different translations, how is one to know which is the absolute right version, without translating themselves? And also how do they know it is the right religion in the first place. How do we know in absolute fact that Muslim, Buddhist, Christianity etc.. all didn't originate from same events, all from one area? But only through the years have changed as the words get translated differently and how stories change little by little when passed on through generations.
In the medieval times, the leaders of the church were infact the rulers of the land. There may have been an actually a king, but the true power were the priests of the church. We do know that sometimes, rulers would change written history to better suit their needs and wants. How do we know, that some priests didn't do the same with the bible, when certain passages contradicted what the priests were telling people? That they didn't change any scriptures to better keep a hold on the people of the land?
One of the biggest errors in looking back on history is to use the modern thoughts to judge it, which means that the whole swath of history is literally taken out of its own context. For example the modern sensibility little understands that a lot of common folk even in the 1850s spoke a much more complicated sentence structure, more flowery, more oratorical than the simple sentences we use today.
If you can read Charles Dickens today and notice the lengthy complex sentences, you would be surprised to know each chapter was printed serially in the newspaper of the day for the common reader.
This in no way implies they were any smarter, but little do we know of history as it really was, for our modern views build a wall in the way of it.
And so little do we appreciate that up past the civil war in America and in most countries in the western world, the Bible was the one book that was in every home, still the most widely read.
It was then and is today a book of stories and ridiculed by the modern belief in the GOD OF UNASSAILABLE LOGIC, in the GOD OF UNASSAILABLE FACTS and so the feelings and narratives and the poetry of those stories are lost on the moderners who are every bit as arrogant as the religious fundamentalists.
To me it's throwing the baby out with the dirty bathwater.
You don't have to believe a word of the BIBLE, you don't have to spend your time fighting strawmen, fighting stereotypes. That battle is way too easy.
If you can read Charles Dickens today and notice the lengthy complex sentences, you would be surprised to know each chapter was printed serially in the newspaper of the day for the common reader.
This in no way implies they were any smarter, but little do we know of history as it really was, for our modern views build a wall in the way of it.
And so little do we appreciate that up past the civil war in America and in most countries in the western world, the Bible was the one book that was in every home, still the most widely read.
It was then and is today a book of stories and ridiculed by the modern belief in the GOD OF UNASSAILABLE LOGIC, in the GOD OF UNASSAILABLE FACTS and so the feelings and narratives and the poetry of those stories are lost on the moderners who are every bit as arrogant as the religious fundamentalists.
To me it's throwing the baby out with the dirty bathwater.
You don't have to believe a word of the BIBLE, you don't have to spend your time fighting strawmen, fighting stereotypes. That battle is way too easy.