Global warming - is it a bad thing?

[L Gilbert]

Want another example? Germany subsidized its people to put solar panels on their roofs. Germany gained economic ground, it's people were paying less for energy, etc. It is a country that gets moderate amounts of sun (kind of like US).

Renewable Energy - Made in Germany - Solar Power

No we can't do that. oil is the answer. :roll:

 

[Scott Free]

I'm not saying oil is the answer. I'm saying taxation isn't the answer nor is pricing ourselves out of the market. At least it isn't unless other countries are doing it too.

 

[Avro]

I'm not saying oil is the answer. I'm saying taxation isn't the answer nor is pricing ourselves out of the market. At least it isn't unless other countries are doing it too.

The examples presented prove it is possible, it's the will that may not be.

Sort of like the mind set that killed the Avro....oh the possibilities, killed by the take no risk cons.

Seems you ride that bus as well Scott even though you recognize the danger of doing nothing.

 

[L Gilbert]

Sorry, Scott. I wasn't pointing fingers. Just mentioning what people have been saying and providing concrete examples of why they are wrong.
Oh, getting rid of our oil-reliant systems will kill the economy and the companies that will pop up exploiting alternative energies will be bad companies. Idiotic.
Sorry, but oil companies have us by the jewels and have NO restrictions. This makes them good and the alt-en companies bad? That these oil companies help trigger a large economic plunge makes them the good guys?

Attitudes toward our world and toward money have to change or things will only get worse. Anyway, GW has good points and it has bad points. It isn't an either/or subject.

 

[Scott Free]

I won't be cajoled by an appeal to faith that if we do nothing things will get worse. We just don't know that because we don't know why they are the way they are. We have speculation and some leads but that's all. I mean this specifically in regard to carbon. There should be a world wide ban on things like Roundup. Of that there is no doubt in my mind.

Any saving in energy cost by going green is temporary. As the world needs less energy oil will drop in price. That is just how the free market works. Sure Germans are enjoying lower costs now but when everyone has solar cells the cost of NG will drop. It has to, again, that is just how a free market economy works - supply and demand.

Western countries want to create artificial markets by taxing us for using oil. That only robs us of money and subsidizes countries like China.

It's a complete mugs game.

 

[karrie]

You have some good points Scott.... why buy a hybrid car for example, if it's just going to mean a small improvement in mileage and an older car into the landfill, with all the manufacturing pollution associated with the new one. A lot of buying into the green mentality means manufacturing and production of new goods. It means cost, and more pollution to create all these neat new energy saving things. Does it all weigh out in the end? I don't know.

But, as I need new things... a new fridge, a new stove, new siding for the house.... I'm quite happy to get more efficient. Blindly running out to replace things though.... you're right, it may not benefit us as much as we think in the end.

 

[Scott Free]

You have some good points Scott.... why buy a hybrid car for example, if it's just going to mean a small improvement in mileage and an older car into the landfill, with all the manufacturing pollution associated with the new one. A lot of buying into the green mentality means manufacturing and production of new goods. It means cost, and more pollution to create all these neat new energy saving things. Does it all weigh out in the end? I don't know.

But, as I need new things... a new fridge, a new stove, new siding for the house.... I'm quite happy to get more efficient. Blindly running out to replace things though.... you're right, it may not benefit us as much as we think in the end.

Thank you. That's all I'm saying.

What is worse is that if you buy that fuel efficient car you cause the price of oil to drop (less demand means more supply) so people in China can afford to use even more. So by our taxing ourselves we are subsidizing countries that refuse to go green. We need to make sure they also have to pay. Throw an import tax on Chinese goods for example. Unfortunately we can't do that because of current trade agreements. So we only tax ourselves which only helps them.

Already this is why the cost of gas is around 2.49 a gallon in China, $4 in the USA and $6 a gallon here. So if you purchase that energy efficient car how much are you really helping the environment? Not much unfortunately. Two people in China will be making up for your savings and the gas companies will be thanking you.

It's no good.

 

[L Gilbert]

I'm not saying oil is the answer. I'm saying taxation isn't the answer nor is pricing ourselves out of the market. At least it isn't unless other countries are doing it too.

Overpricing is a direct result of an oversized, intrusive gov't, powerful unions, and companies in tandem conspiring (or passively agreeing) to control things.

 

[Scott Free]

Overpricing is a direct result of an oversized, intrusive gov't, powerful unions, and companies in tandem conspiring (or passively agreeing) to control things.

I agree and they all want to see their investments grow which means making sure China grows. So they complain about the environment and tax us which helps China which in turn helps them. We're left getting screwed.

 

[Avro]

You have some good points Scott.... why buy a hybrid car for example, if it's just going to mean a small improvement in mileage and an older car into the landfill, with all the manufacturing pollution associated with the new one. A lot of buying into the green mentality means manufacturing and production of new goods. It means cost, and more pollution to create all these neat new energy saving things. Does it all weigh out in the end? I don't know.

But, as I need new things... a new fridge, a new stove, new siding for the house.... I'm quite happy to get more efficient. Blindly running out to replace things though.... you're right, it may not benefit us as much as we think in the end.

A friend of mine up north owns a scrap yard.....they aren't put in a land fill, they are recycled.

I own two hybrids to offset my toys and we are buying my Mom a Prius for Christmas....every bit helps.

My concern for the environment has lead me to other decisions which I mentioned here before, the first step is the most important one.

 

[L Gilbert]

I won't be cajoled by an appeal to faith that if we do nothing things will get worse. We just don't know that because we don't know why they are the way they are. We have speculation and some leads but that's all. I mean this specifically in regard to carbon. There should be a world wide ban on things like Roundup. Of that there is no doubt in my mind.

Yup, unfortunately we have things like oil companies and pharmaceutical companies that have been allowed free rein that like to sell our bad things to other countries, control a large part of what we grow and eat, have too large an influence over gov'ts, etc.

Any saving in energy cost by going green is temporary. As the world needs less energy oil will drop in price. That is just how the free market works. Sure Germans are enjoying lower costs now but when everyone has solar cells the cost of NG will drop. It has to, again, that is just how a free market economy works - supply and demand.

I understand supply and demand. There is a problem with that, though. Uncontrolled free market is not a good thing. It allows situations where a few companies like the oil companies to passively form a group that controils too much.

Western countries want to create artificial markets by taxing us for using oil. That only robs us of money and subsidizes countries like China.

It's a complete mugs game.

Yup. As I said, attitudes towards money (profit) have to change.

 

[karrie]

A friend of mine up north owns a scrap yard.....they aren't put in a land fill, they are recycled.

I own two hybrids to offset my toys and we are buying my Mom a Prius for Christmas....every bit helps.

My concern for the environment has lead me to other decisions which I mentioned here before, the first step is the most important one.

My concern for the environment has led me to foodscape my yard so that I'm producing some of my own food rather than buying imported product. It's led us to increase our insulation value as we renovate, put in triple pane windows since new ones were needed. It's led us to recycle and soon to compost. To not chemically fertilize or weedkill our lawn. To drive less when we can. To collect rainwater for our gardens. To switch to greener cleaners in our home. But we try to make the changes in a way that's not about consumerism. When it's time for a new vehicle, I'll gladly buy something more fuel efficient, but, I'm not about to buy a new vehicle JUST for that reason. It doesn't make much sense. Even though the old one is recycled (sort of.... scrap yards are still full) it still takes a plant and thus pollution to build me a new one.

 

[Scott Free]

Yup, unfortunately we have things like oil companies and pharmaceutical companies that have been allowed free rein that like to sell our bad things to other countries, control a large part of what we grow and eat, have too large an influence over gov'ts, etc.

I understand supply and demand. There is a problem with that, though. Uncontrolled free market is not a good thing. It allows situations where a few companies like the oil companies to passively form a group that controils too much.

Yup. As I said, attitudes towards money (profit) have to change.

I definitely agree with you there. We would only need to get rid of limited liability IMO and the whole game would change. It would be an economic nightmare in the short term but of unmeasurable benefit in the long term. Even if just some liability were put onto investors we would see corporations becoming more aligned to human problems and interests. We could start scaling back limited liability over the coarse of 10 or 20 years which would give investors time to pull out of the worst offenders or give the offenders time to change.

Limited liability is really just a method to "externalize" production costs onto people and the environment. That's what really needs to change IMO and the rest would naturally follow.

 

[L Gilbert]

Thank you. That's all I'm saying.

What is worse is that if you buy that fuel efficient car you cause the price of oil to drop (less demand means more supply) so people in China can afford to use even more. So by our taxing ourselves we are subsidizing countries that refuse to go green. We need to make sure they also have to pay. Throw an import tax on Chinese goods for example. Unfortunately we can't do that because of current trade agreements. So we only tax ourselves which only helps them.

Already this is why the cost of gas is around 2.49 a gallon in China, $4 in the USA and $6 a gallon here. So if you purchase that energy efficient car how much are you really helping the environment? Not much unfortunately. Two people in China will be making up for your savings and the gas companies will be thanking you.

It's no good.

The answer to that is peer pressure. Other countries have to put pressure on the maverick countries to smarten up. Governments have to work smarter. If almost everyone around you is riding bicycles and therefore having more time for fun while you still walk, eventually you will want a bike, too, or else get left behind.

 

[L Gilbert]

A friend of mine up north owns a scrap yard.....they aren't put in a land fill, they are recycled.

I own two hybrids to offset my toys and we are buying my Mom a Prius for Christmas....every bit helps.

My concern for the environment has lead me to other decisions which I mentioned here before, the first step is the most important one.

You use hybrids to offset your other toys? What's the point? If someone saves money by installing solar panels to cut back his imprint on the environment and then goes on a plane trip (jets are notorious for messing up the air) with his saved money, what's the point?

 

[Avro]

My concern for the environment has led me to foodscape my yard so that I'm producing some of my own food rather than buying imported product. It's led us to increase our insulation value as we renovate, put in triple pane windows since new ones were needed. It's led us to recycle and soon to compost. To not chemically fertilize or weedkill our lawn. To drive less when we can. To collect rainwater for our gardens. To switch to greener cleaners in our home. But we try to make the changes in a way that's not about consumerism. When it's time for a new vehicle, I'll gladly buy something more fuel efficient, but, I'm not about to buy a new vehicle JUST for that reason. It doesn't make much sense. Even though the old one is recycled (sort of.... scrap yards are still full) it still takes a plant and thus pollution to build me a new one.

Scrap yards are full Karrie, but it's not because no one takes it. it sits for about a year until it is raped for parts and then it is picked up to be recycled. My friends yard gets a pick up every month for metal.

No one sane expects people to give up their still reliable vehicle for a more environmentally friendly one but i think it is prudent to be wise in selection of a new vehicle and one based on needs ie a single guy buying a hummer just because he can.

I admit, I have toys, a corvette, skidoo"s, a boat, seadoo"s and ATV"s. However I have bought lots of land in a Beatrix Potter kind of way and have made my house and cottage very self sufficient on energy.

 

[L Gilbert]

.........I admit, I have toys, a corvette, skidoo"s, a boat, seadoo"s and ATV"s. However I have bought lots of land in a Beatrix Potter kind of way and have made my house and cottage very self sufficient on energy.

Again, what'
s the point of being environmentally conscious and energy saving on one hand and counteracting it all in other ways?

 

[L Gilbert]

Karrie has hit on an important point, consumerism. Everything about our society has developed to pointing to the need to consume. Our attitudes have to change.

 

[Avro]

Again, what'
s the point of being environmentally conscious and energy saving on one hand and counteracting it all in other ways?

My carbon foot print is lower than the average guy, and I protect land from being consumed by developers.

 

[L Gilbert]

Nice, but you are still counteracting it by messing up in other ways.