German Court Bans Head Scarves

[tracy]

Sorry to be repetitive, but it the head scarf wearing Muslim teacher prepared to teach Christian values, respect Christian traditions and other Christian/Western freedoms, or is the teacher going to instill her values on the children, like a typical role model may do. Are we transplanting Muslim ideologies into Western countries and their schools, or are we accepting that Muslims can set aside their ideologies and teach Western curricula and traditional Western values?

The thing is, that's not what this story is about. They only banned an article of clothing. I don't see how a headscarf interferes with a teacher's ability to teach. There are Christian and Jewish women who cover their hair as well. My parents sent me to school without worrying about me being corrupted by my Christian teachers. It's possible to be religious without forcing it on others and as long as teachers keep their religion to themselves, I don't see the problem.

I think this is just another example of how touchy we've become. We're offended by everything and always reading into things. If the worst thing that happens to a kid is being exposed to a woman wearing a headscarf, that's pretty mild. Kids don't need to be sheltered that much.

 

[Ariadne]

We have teachers here who are not expected to teach Christmas or Easter to their students, despite the fact that they dress the same as the rest of us. Atheists and Jehova's Witnesses have as much right here to be teachers, without being forced to teach Christian aspects in the public school setting.

And as for the free thinking of the 60's which you feel has been adopted.. how free are we if we can't choose to practise a religion of our choosing? Forcing others to fall in line with our way of dress and conform to white christian ideals was FAR from the thinking of the 60's.

While I can get what you're saying about a Muslim woman in a headscarf forming an opinion about in appropriately clad girls in the school, I fail to see how a woman with a headscarf would be any more disapproving or judgemental than a jehova's witness, or a devout baptist woman, who dress the norm. Religious zealots don't all dress differently from us. And just because a Muslim woman prefers to wear her headscarf, doesn't mean she will be judgemental, or a zealot in any way.

This isn't Germany, this is Canada and we have chosen to be a multicultural country. Germany has made different decisions and at what point does anyone from Canada have the right to tell Germany that they should be multicultural, multireligion and just another great big melting pot of anything goes. Shouldn't some places in the world develop in their own way without having to adhere to the cultureless North American "anything goes" attitudes?

People in Canada can practice their own religion anywhere, but some countries think that practicing religion belongs in religious locations, like Churches.

Religious extremists are not usually hired by public school boards ... believe it or not.

 

[Ariadne]

If you want your children taught Christian values and Christian traditions, you should have them in Christian school.

Sure, and if German people want Christian values in their schools, why should anyone tell them that they're doing something wrong?

 

[karrie]

Sure, and if German people want Christian values in their schools, why should anyone tell them that they're doing something wrong?

For the same reason people complain about the Muslims persecuting Christians within Islamic countries.... because freedom of religion should be a universal human right.

 

[Ariadne]

The thing is, that's not what this story is about. They only banned an article of clothing. I don't see how a headscarf interferes with a teacher's ability to teach. There are Christian and Jewish women who cover their hair as well. My parents sent me to school without worrying about me being corrupted by my Christian teachers. It's possible to be religious without forcing it on others and as long as teachers keep their religion to themselves, I don't see the problem.

I think this is just another example of how touchy we've become. We're offended by everything and always reading into things. If the worst thing that happens to a kid is being exposed to a woman wearing a headscarf, that's pretty mild. Kids don't need to be sheltered that much.

Hats are not allowed in schools. That's a rule. How is a scarf any different? Let's keep in mind that the head scarf doesn't just cover the head, it covers the neck, shoulders, and part of the upper torso. Why don't these women leave their religion at home and respect the rules of the school?

 

[karrie]

Sure, and if German people want Christian values in their schools, why should anyone tell them that they're doing something wrong?

Also, most Christians I know wouldn't count intolerance as one of their values.

 

[karrie]

Hats are not allowed in schools. That's a rule. How is a scarf any different? Let's keep in mind that the head scarf doesn't just cover the head, it covers the neck, shoulders, and part of the upper torso. Why don't these women leave their religion at home and respect the rules of the school?

for the same reason you shouldn't be forced to go topless if ever in a tribal african village whose women don't wear conventional western clothing. For the same reason you, as a western woman, wouldn't be expected to wear a headscarf in many Islamic countries, I'll use Kuwait as an example. It's not part of your religion, it's something that would likely make you uncomfortable, and you would not be expected to do it, out of respect to you as a human.

for a muslim woman to be forced to go out in public without her headscarf it would be much the same... a source of discomfort and embarassment to her. When there is reason, schools make exceptions to the 'no hat' rule for students. when i had a large portion of my scalp amputated and replaced with skin grafts as a child, despite being ready to go back to school, I still had large scars and bald spots on my head.. I was allowed a hat for my own comfort. My daughter has a young girl who faces the same issue right now due to a medical condition. young girls going through chemo are allowed scarves and hats. vanity and comfort are taken into account for them, why not for a woman whose cultural norm is a scarf?

 

[RomSpaceKnight]

The idea is to have a TOTAL seperation of church and state. Religion has no part in goverment. As long as schools are public goverment run things than there is to be no religion in school. Even inadvertant showing of religious tapestry is to be avoided. If you want traditional christian values taught to your child send them to a traditional christian values school. School is for the ABC's and some social studies. Or do we go back to saying the Lord's prayer in school every morning and all non-christain students go out in the hall till it is done. How do explain to a crying 5 year old that they are not getting christ mass presents like all their friends because their parents are Buddhist, Islamic, Jewish, Shinto or pagan? How would you like a teacher to tell your child they are doomed to hell for not following the teachers religion? Would it not be easier to remove all religion from schools and leave it at home? I think so.

 

[karrie]

The idea is to have a TOTAL seperation of church and state. Religion has no part in goverment. As long as schools are public goverment run things than there is to be no religion in school. Even inadvertant showing of religious tapestry is to be avoided. If you want traditional christian values taught to your child send them to a traditional christian values school. School is for the ABC's and some social studies. Or do we go back to saying the Lord's prayer in school every morning and all non-christain students go out in the hall till it is done. How do explain to a crying 5 year old that they are not getting christ mass presents like all their friends because their parents are Buddhist, Islamic, Jewish, Shinto or pagan? How would you like a teacher to tell your child they are doomed to hell for not following the teachers religion? Would it not be easier to remove all religion from schools and leave it at home? I think so.

I agree mostly with what you're saying. I hated seeing my son's classmate left out of Christmas activitiess in class this year, but I also hated seeing the presentations that atheist teachers had done up for the christmas pagent... either make it a winter pagent and let all teachers do a winter theme, or leave it a christmas pagent. but to have a teacher here or there do things like 'interpretive dance for the death of a forest', with their grade two class, really grated on me. It drove home the idea that I want my kids in Catholic school.... a place where the practise of religion should be encouraged, NOT a place where it makes kids sit in the hall. But, even in Catholic school, I would be apalled if a teacher were not allowed to wear the symbols of their culture and religion. It's not the same as preaching it.

 

[tracy]

Hats are not allowed in schools. That's a rule. How is a scarf any different? Let's keep in mind that the head scarf doesn't just cover the head, it covers the neck, shoulders, and part of the upper torso. Why don't these women leave their religion at home and respect the rules of the school?

Hats are allowed in those schools. That's what the two muslim teachers use now to cover their heads. They obviously are respecting the rules. I'm just expressing my opinion that I think this rule is silly. I think they are making a mountain out of a molehill. Christian children won't be scarred for life because their teacher covered her hair.

A headscarf doesn't necessarily cover the neck or upper body btw, it can just be a headscarf (no different from what Christian nuns wear).

 

[selfactivated]

The idea is to have a TOTAL seperation of church and state. Religion has no part in goverment. As long as schools are public goverment run things than there is to be no religion in school. Even inadvertant showing of religious tapestry is to be avoided. If you want traditional christian values taught to your child send them to a traditional christian values school. School is for the ABC's and some social studies. Or do we go back to saying the Lord's prayer in school every morning and all non-christain students go out in the hall till it is done. How do explain to a crying 5 year old that they are not getting christ mass presents like all their friends because their parents are Buddhist, Islamic, Jewish, Shinto or pagan? How would you like a teacher to tell your child they are doomed to hell for not following the teachers religion? Would it not be easier to remove all religion from schools and leave it at home? I think so.

So you also would have a teacher not wear a cross, pentacle,medicine bag, ect?

 

[Ariadne]

for the same reason you shouldn't be forced to go topless if ever in a tribal african village whose women don't wear conventional western clothing. For the same reason you, as a western woman, wouldn't be expected to wear a headscarf in many Islamic countries, I'll use Kuwait as an example. It's not part of your religion, it's something that would likely make you uncomfortable, and you would not be expected to do it, out of respect to you as a human.

for a muslim woman to be forced to go out in public without her headscarf it would be much the same... a source of discomfort and embarassment to her. When there is reason, schools make exceptions to the 'no hat' rule for students. when i had a large portion of my scalp amputated and replaced with skin grafts as a child, despite being ready to go back to school, I still had large scars and bald spots on my head.. I was allowed a hat for my own comfort. My daughter has a young girl who faces the same issue right now due to a medical condition. young girls going through chemo are allowed scarves and hats. vanity and comfort are taken into account for them, why not for a woman whose cultural norm is a scarf?

I like Canada, so I live here. I'm assuming that people that move here like what we have to offer. I really don't buy into the idea of people coming from other countries and setting up their own little tight community ... like transplanting the other country here. If people like the life in their other country, why do they come here? Forget the refugee argument ... there are plenty of Muslim countries where they could live as refugees.

I understand the need to cover the head after surgery, but I think there's a big difference between post-surgical protection and refusing to set aside religion in a public learning facility. I like to see people's heads, shoulders, necks and upper bodies. That's what I'm used to. If I was in a Muslim country, I would adhere to their customs simply to avoid standing out, and I think that people living in Western countries should adhere to their customs so as not to make everyone else uncomfortable. There's that old saying: "when in Rome, do as the Romans." There's a reason for that saying and it has nothing to do with religion.

 

[Ariadne]

The idea is to have a TOTAL seperation of church and state. Religion has no part in goverment. As long as schools are public goverment run things than there is to be no religion in school. Even inadvertant showing of religious tapestry is to be avoided. If you want traditional christian values taught to your child send them to a traditional christian values school. School is for the ABC's and some social studies. Or do we go back to saying the Lord's prayer in school every morning and all non-christain students go out in the hall till it is done. How do explain to a crying 5 year old that they are not getting christ mass presents like all their friends because their parents are Buddhist, Islamic, Jewish, Shinto or pagan? How would you like a teacher to tell your child they are doomed to hell for not following the teachers religion? Would it not be easier to remove all religion from schools and leave it at home? I think so.

That is what Canadian public schools are doing. Religious studies is offered as an academic option where people can learn about diverse religion. The Lord's Prayer is gone, the Christmas concert is now the Winter concert and Easter vacation is now called Spring break. Apparently Germany wants to retain their Christian culture in their schools ... and I say let them.

 

[Ariadne]

Hats are allowed in those schools. That's what the two muslim teachers use now to cover their heads. They obviously are respecting the rules. I'm just expressing my opinion that I think this rule is silly. I think they are making a mountain out of a molehill. Christian children won't be scarred for life because their teacher covered her hair.

A headscarf doesn't necessarily cover the neck or upper body btw, it can just be a headscarf (no different from what Christian nuns wear).

Canadian public schools don't allow people to wear hats in the building and most schools have the same regulations. The Muslim teachers are wearing hats/head coverings and there seems to be a problem with it. I have no doubt that the Muslims have made it into a religious discrimination issue, but what they are doing is refusing to follow the rules.

 

[gopher]

Based on what little I have read on past German legal cases, it's a good bet that the ban's legality will be upheld. Germany's constitutional practices are rather culturally chauvinistic. But it is that way across the board.

Of course, headscarf bans have also been upheld in Turkey and in Algeria after the revoultion. Therefore, it would not be unprecedented.

 

[Ariadne]

Based on what little I have read on past German legal cases, it's a good bet that the ban's legality will be upheld. Germany's constitutional practices are rather culturally chauvinistic. But it is that way across the board.

Of course, headscarf bans have also been upheld in Turkey and in Algeria after the revoultion. Therefore, it would not be unprecedented.

That's good news. It's important for some countries to stand up for what they believe and toss the political correctness in the toilet ... where it sometimes belongs. Western countries are so eager to demonstrate that they are open minded that they seem to be ready to compromise their culture into oblivion.

 

[RomSpaceKnight]

It's not only head scafs being banned. Any open display of religion is gone. A cross openly worn in plain view applies as well. A jewish orthodiox male would not be allowed hos head covering either. This is not a law aimed at Muslims. It is aimed at all religions. Religion is for family and church not goverment and public schools.

And yes I feel that if I was a teacher my medicine bag would have to be tucked away out of site and that I would have to teach Hallowe'en as a chance to score free candy.

 

[RomSpaceKnight]

"Politically correct" sounds like a phrase invented by an intolerant person. "Politely inclusive" is a better term.

 

[selfactivated]

It's not only head scafs being banned. Any open display of religion is gone. A cross openly worn in plain view applies as well. A jewish orthodiox male would not be allowed hos head covering either. This is not a law aimed at Muslims. It is aimed at all religions. Religion is for family and church not goverment and public schools.

And yes I feel that if I was a teacher my medicine bag would have to be tucked away out of site and that I would have to teach Hallowe'en as a chance to score free candy.

Lets take it one step further........If a teacher must give up thier individuality then so must the students.........correct?

 

[selfactivated]

"Politically correct" sounds like a phrase invented by an intolerant person. "Politely inclusive" is a better term.

Its not about politics its about belief systems and if you start at scarves where does it stop?