Evolution Debate ...

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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becka said:
Just Curious... What is everyone here. Christian, Atheist, or ape (evolutionist)

Evolutionists are apes? First, there are many more options than the three you listed, and second, humans are not apes, they simply share the designation "primate" with apes and several other creatures.

But since you asked, more or less, in no particular order I'm a husband, a father, a lover (and among the best on the planet at all three of those), an atheist, a primate, an engineer, a secular humanist, a scientist, a skeptic, a man, a rationalist, retired, horny, broke, sober, tired (at the moment), and fed up with human irrationality and stupidity.

Anything else you want to know about me?
 

mrmom2

Senate Member
Mar 8, 2005
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Ya I want to know what kind of vehicle you drive :p Ya can tell a lot about a person from what they drive Dex :p
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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1993 Toyota Camry LE. Best car I've ever owned, by far. 150,000 km on it, never had to do anything but routine maintenance to it, still looks and runs like new. And with a 3-litre V6 it has lots of get up and go, and fuel economy's not bad. Great machine.

And just to keep things on topic, Toyotas have evolved significantly from the cheap crap they used to be 30 years ago...

Anything else? :wink:
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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I'm an internat-ordained atheist who understands science well enough to know that evolution has an incredible mass of physical evidence to back it up. I know that evolution does not mean that we are apes, but that humans and apes did come from a common ancestor. Before that we came from little furry animals who spent a lot of time dodging dinosaurs. Before that, we were pond scum. That's an oversimplification and there were a lot of steps in between, but those who want to know the truth will search them out and those who prefer to believe if fairy tales will refuse to look at the facts, so there isn't much use getting too deeply into it here.

I have a wife, four dogs, three cats, a house and an antique walking tractor. I drive a 1982 Dodge pick-up with a slant 6 engine.

Is that enough, Becka, or do you want to know what colour my underwear are?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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peapod said:
Ya, how much do you figure you pay per pound for the fish you catch?? :wink:

Zero. What I pay for is the trip into the wilderness and back. The fish are like icing, or gravy: nice to get, but not really necessary. I'd be just as happy sitting on the dock admiring the scenery and pondering the processes of evolution (gotta stay on topic :wink: ) that put it all together.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Re: RE: Evolution Debate ...

Reverend Blair said:
... a slant 6 engine.

Closest thing to a perpetual motion machine ever built. Great little engine, probably the best one that ever came out of Detroit. I used to have a '64 Valiant with one, had 300,000 miles on it without major repair when I sold it off. It's probably still running somewhere, if the rest of the car hasn't rusted off around it.

Hmm.... can't think of a way to squeeze a reference to evolution into this post.... Except that one.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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This is the third slant 6 I've owned. One was in a '67 truck, one was in a '68 Dart, and now this one. It's brutally underpowered on the highway, but that has as much to do with 4th being an overdrive gear as anything else.

Trucks hadn't evolved (hah!) into being much more than machines for hauling things in 1982 though, so Dodge gave this one the same transmission/gearing that they would have if it had a V-8 instead.
 

Neodim

Nominee Member
Seems like the Bible is in the focus - but it has been heavily influenced on more ancient knowledge and why don't you learn about other sources?

The Supreme One is Bhagavad Gita:
http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/online/gita.html

And from the different points of view modern science is a collection of myths and speculations ( quarks and leptons who never can see but everyone talks about) as well. However, so called 'new physics' is the revolutionary movement of thought in modern physics which came to realize what ancient scriptures already had claimed thousands of years ago and thus reconciliation is inevitable.
Further inquiry:
M.Talbot MYSTICISM AND NEW PHYSICS
F.Capra THE TAO OF PHYSICS
 

zenfisher

House Member
Sep 12, 2004
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Re: RE: Evolution Debate ...

Dexter Sinister said:
Reverend Blair said:
... a slant 6 engine.

Closest thing to a perpetual motion machine ever built. Great little engine, probably the best one that ever came out of Detroit. I used to have a '64 Valiant with one, had 300,000 miles on it without major repair when I sold it off. It's probably still running somewhere, if the rest of the car hasn't rusted off around it.

Hmm.... can't think of a way to squeeze a reference to evolution into this post.... Except that one.

Hey! ...I used to have a 64 Valiant ! Fanatastic car. Unfortunately I had to sell it to get out of T. Bay.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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I'm not familiar with Talbot's work, but I can assure you that Fritjof Capra is full of it. The Tao of Physics claims that the philosophy and theories of modern physics, with special attention on quantum mechanics, supports a lot of Eastern mysticism, especially Buddhism. He may have a good understanding of Buddhism--I don't, so I can't speak to that-- but he has almost no knowledge of physics, and everything of his I've read I'd describe as fluff and nonsense. He's just another New Age pseudothinker with a substantial cult following of the naive and easily misled. Lately he's moved into biology, and doesn't seem to understand that either. His kind of thinking is responsible for ignorant nonsense like "...from the different points of view science is a collection of myths and speculations..." There is no legitimate intellectual position that would justify such a statement, and it bespeaks a vast ignorance of the nature and methods of science.
 

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
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Hard-Luck Henry said:
[URL=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/5771/monkeys6et.gif[/img][/url]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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I was raised in a Christian family and still consider myself a Christian of sorts but I see nothing threatening about evolution. I don't think God put the fossils out there to fool us. Evolution is a fact of life that only the more rabid fundimentalists would deny. I don't know how we could deny the existance of fossil evidence that shows dozens of different Trilobites or early primates that are obviously related to man or so many extinct species of fish that are related to modern fish. Evolution is a fact.
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
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Chimp genetic code opens human frontiers

Genome comparison reveals many similarities — and crucial differences.

Also:

Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey

In a finding that is likely to intensify the debate over what to teach students about the origins of life, a poll released yesterday found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.

The poll found that 42 percent of respondents held strict creationist views, agreeing that "living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time."

In contrast, 48 percent said they believed that humans had evolved over time. But of those, 18 percent said that evolution was "guided by a supreme being," and 26 percent said that evolution occurred through natural selection. In all, 64 percent said they were open to the idea of teaching creationism in addition to evolution, while 38 percent favored replacing evolution with creationism.

:roll:
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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Here is some bits on the biggest ewe of them all. :? :?


By Edna DeVore, Director of Education and Public Outreach, SETI Institute

On August 1, 2005, a group of reporters from Texas met with President Bush in the Roosevelt room for a roundtable interview. The President’s remarks suggest that he believes that both intelligent design and evolution should be taught so that “people are exposed to different schools of thought.” There have been so many articles since his remarks that it’s useful to read the relevant portion of published interview:

“Q: I wanted to ask you about the -- what seems to be a growing debate over evolution versus intelligent design. What are your personal views on that, and do you think both should be taught in public schools?

THE PRESIDENT: I think -- as I said, harking back to my days as my governor -- both you and Herman are doing a fine job of dragging me back to the past. (Laughter.) Then, I said that, first of all, that decision should be made to local school districts, but I felt like both sides ought to be properly taught.

Q: Both sides should be properly taught?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, people -- so people can understand what the debate is about.

Q: So the answer accepts the validity of intelligent design as an alternative to evolution?

THE PRESIDENT: I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought, and I'm not suggesting -- you're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, and the answer is yes.”

(Transcript released by the White House and published on August 2, 2005 at WashingtonPost.com)

The reporter got it right: there is an ongoing debate over intelligent design vs. evolution, at least in the media and in politics. There is not a debate in the greater scientific community about the validity of evolution. Further, the vast majority of scientists do not consider intelligent design as a viable alternative to evolution.

Dr. John Marburger III, Presidential Science Advisor, tried to dispel the impact of the President’s comments. On Aug. 2, The New York Times quoted a telephone interview with Marburger in which he said, “evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology” and “intelligent design is not a scientific concept.” Certainly, no one doubts where Marburger stands. One might question whether the President takes Marbuger’s scientific advice seriously, or is simply more concerned about pleasing a portion of the electorate.

Marburger also spoke with Dr. Marvin Cohen, President of the American Physical Society, and recipient of the National Medal of Science from President Bush in 2002. In an Aug. 4 release, Cohen explains that the APS is “…happy that the President’s recent comments on the theory of intelligent design have been clarified. As Presidential Science Advisor John Marburger has explained, President Bush does not regard intelligent design as science. If such things are to be taught in the public schools, they belong in a course on comparative religion, which is a particularly appropriate subject for our children given the present state of the world.” It would be better to hear this directly from the President. Likely, the intelligent design advocates will ignore Marburger’s explanation. Like the fabled little Dutch boy, Marburger, stuck his finger in the dike in hopes of saving the day.

Unlike the brave boy, Marburger did not prevent the flood of print and electronic coverage that ensued. From August 2 to the present, Google-News tracked more than 1,800 articles, commentaries, and letters to the editor on intelligent design. That’s about 120 per day since the President’s remarks.

In the days following the interview, major educational and scientific organizations issued statements that criticized the President for considering intelligent design as a viable alternative to evolution, for confusing religion with science, and for advocating that intelligent design be taught in schools.

“President Bush, in advocating that the concept of ‘intelligent design’ be taught alongside the theory of evolution, puts America’s schoolchildren at risk,” says Fred Spilhaus, Executive Director of the American Geophysical Union. “Americans will need basic understanding of science in order to participate effectively in the 21 st century world. It is essential that students on every level learn what science is and how scientific knowledge progresses.” (AGU, Aug. 2, 2005) AGU is a scientific society comprising 43,000 Earth and space scientists.

Likewise, the American Institute of Biological Sciences criticized the President: “Intelligent design is not a scientific theory and must not be taught in science classes,” said AIBS president Dr. Marvalee Wake. “If we want our students to be able to compete in the global economy, if we want to attract the next generation into the sciences, we must make sure that we are teaching them science. We simply cannot begin to introduce non-scientific concepts into the science curriculum.” (AIBS, Aug. 5, 2005) The American Institute of Biological Sciences was established as a national umbrella organization for the biological sciences in 1947 by 11 scientific societies as part of the National Academy of Sciences. An independent non-profit organization since 1954, it has grown to represent more than 80 professional societies and organizations with a combined membership exceeding 240,000 scientists and educators. (AIBS website)

Science educators are equally dismayed. “The National Science Teachers Association (NSTA), the world’s largest organization of science educators, is stunned and disappointed that President Bush is endorsing the teaching of intelligent design – effectively opening the door for nonscientific ideas to be taught in the nation’s K-12 science classrooms. We stand with the nation’s leading scientific organizations and scientists, including Dr. John Marburger, the president’s top science advisor, in stating that intelligent design is not science. Intelligent design has no place in the science classroom, said Gerry Wheeler, NSTA Executive Director.” (NSTA, Aug. 3, 2005) NSTA has 55,000 members who teach science in elementary, middle and high schools as well as college and universities.

The American Federation of Teachers, which represents 1.3 million pre-K through 12 th grade teachers, was even harsher. “President Bush’s misinformed comments on ‘intelligent design’ signal a huge step backward for science education in the United States. The president’s endorsement of such a discredited, nonscientific view is akin to suggesting that students be taught the ‘alternative theory’ that the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth. Intelligent design does not belong in the science classroom because it is not science.” (AFT, Aug. 4, 2005)

There is a problem here. Obviously, scientists and educators understand that intelligent design has no place in the classroom. Intelligent design is, simply, one of several varieties of creationism that offer religious explanations for the origin and current condition of the natural world. As such, it does not merit being taught alongside evolution as a “school of thought.” There’s significant legal precedent from US Supreme Court that creationism - in any clothing - does not belong in the American classrooms. Teaching creationism is in violation of the separation of church and state, and has been ruled illegal by the US Supreme Court in several cases. It’s unfortunate that the President apparently does not understand that science is not equivalent to a belief system but is description of how the natural world works. Creationism, including intelligent design, is a religious point of view, not science.

At a time when industrial, academic, and business leaders are calling for more American students to train in engineering, mathematics, science and technology, we need to teach science in science classrooms. Let’s teach the scientific ideas that are supported by overwhelming evidence such as gravitation, relativity, quantum mechanics, and evolution. Creationist ideas/beliefs, such as intelligent design, don’t belong in science classrooms. In our haste to leave no child behind, let’s not leave science behind either.

http://www.seti.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=ktJ2J9MMIsE&b=194993&ct=1324903
 

Neodim

Nominee Member
"Big Bang" Theory

Copyright © John Dobson

You have to have at least graduated high school to believe in the
"Big Bang" Theory, because in high school three things happen:
First, you're persuaded the impossible is possible,
Then you become persuaded the possible is probable,
Finally you become persuaded the probable is certain.
It takes at least 3 years for this.
Children will never buy everything came from nothing.

http://www.johndobson.org

Modern science has become a religion with its own zealots, priests and dogmas. So called 'new age thinkers' apparently are the ones who try to dispell scientific myths, and what would be left from modern physics if it has to be completely rewritten in the light of trying to explain , say, Bell theorem?

http://www.hinduism.co.za/hinduism.htm

"All this- whatever exists in this changing
universe, is pervaded by God"
-Isa Upanishad
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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Oh those are great links..Dr. giblets his self..I am gonna have fun with this one :wink: Today we interview Focus on the Family leader James Dobson.

FAFBLOG: So! How's the Family?
JAMES DOBSON: The Family is in deadly danger, Fafnir.
FB: Danger? Oh no! I like families!
JD: Yes, danger from the homosexual agenda which has been trying for decades to destroy it.
FB: I never knew homosexuals had an agenda! I just thought they were ordinary people who were easily stereotyped as lovers of musical theater.
JD: So they and the gay-controlled Hollywood elite would have you believe. But the Forces of Gay are now closer than ever to destroying the divine institution of the civil marriage certificate, and with it, the family itself.
FB: You must hate gay people then, since they're trying to destroy the family.
JD: We don't hate gay people, Fafnir. We just want them to functionally cease to exist by having them suppress all their natural physical impulses and force themselves to marry and have sex with members of the opposite gender.
FB: Wow. That's a very loving attitude to take Dr. Dobson.
JD: Yes, it is.
FB: Now Dr. Dobson you are also involved in the Family Research Council which I am lead to believe does highly scientific research on families. What kind of research do you do?
JD: Well, Fafnir, a lot of our research involves the proliferation of Unchristian Sex Acts, or UCSAs. Our latest study shows that every day, over fifty-five million UCSAs occur in the United States alone.
FB: Wow! That's a lot!
JD: Now, our science-like studies also show a corresponding buildup in other Civilization-Destroying Trends: Adolescent Acts Of Masturbation, or AAOMs; Breakups Of Couples And Families, or BOCAFs; Instances Of Feminism And Evolutionary Biology In Education, or IFEBEs; and so on.
FB: All of these have scary acronyms!
JD: And all of these are on the rise, Fafnir, correlating with the rise of UCSAs - UCSAs such as homosexuality. Homosexuality - which is now being spread through the very heart of marriage itself.
FB: Oh no! But I thought gay people were good and deserved marriage licenses!
JD: That's probably because of your treacherous liberal education. It's brainwashed you into thinking that there is no right and wrong, that everyone deserves equal rights, and that the fossil record accurately represents the geological and biological history of the earth. If our society continues to slide down this slippery slope of moral relativism, it will mean the end of Western Civilization.
FB: Oh no! Not Western Civilization! That's where all my friends live!
JD: And without Western Civilization, the dark forces of Satanism, terrorism, feminism, and internationalism will devour all that's good in the world and allow the Antichrist to set up his one-world kingdom.
FB: Wow. This is pretty devastating stuff Dr. Dobson. And it can't be wrong or crazy 'cause you're a doctor!
JD: That's right, Fafnir. I am a doctor.

Thank you for the interview Dr. James Dobson! Tomorrow we will talk with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who is takin time out from his busy schedule just for us. How do we do it?