Euthansia

[tibear]

Vanni,

I tend to agree with you with respect to the DNR but that really isn't euthanasia. Its really just letting nature take its course.

I'm not so sure about your criteria regarding "value to society". Anyone in advanced Parkinson, MS, or situations like the Latimer girl could be argued that they have "little or no value".

 

[Reverend Blair]

No, but we put dogs to sleep when their is so great that they have no quality of life. Should we not have the same compassion for our fellow humans?

 

[tibear]

RB,

That is a tough one but regardless of the circumstances I don't feel that we should have the right to "take" a life.

I think we should make everyone as comfortable as possible and not take steps to lengthen their discomfort but personally I don't think we should have the right to "end" a person's suffering. I know a couple of people who watched their loved one's die a slow and painful death. They all said it was extremely difficult but it did give them and their family a better appreciation of life itself. They even commented about the true outpouring of love that was felt when different parts of the family would go and visit the sick and everyone agreed that it pulled the family together like nothing else had.

So much good does come from this situation even though it is a very difficult situation to live through.

 

[Reverend Blair]

I know people who have said exactly the opposite too, tibear.

There are also things like living wills where people can set the parameters for when they are to be euthanized. Right now it is illegal to follow the wishes of somebody who asks to be euthanized in a living will. Surely we could go at least far enough to allow relatives and medical practitioners to carry out legally documented wishes.

 

[Cosmo]

Re: RE: Euthansia

I think we should make everyone as comfortable as possible and not take steps to lengthen their discomfort but personally I don't think we should have the right to "end" a person's suffering. I know a couple of people who watched their loved one's die a slow and painful death. They all said it was extremely difficult but it did give them and their family a better appreciation of life itself. They even commented about the true outpouring of love that was felt when different parts of the family would go and visit the sick and everyone agreed that it pulled the family together like nothing else had.

So much good does come from this situation even though it is a very difficult situation to live through.

Tibear, I see your point and it does make a certain amount of sense, but I do think there are other ways to enhance the family bonds. I also believe that many people would CHOOSE to be a catalyst in healing family issues by dying a slow death. But that is not true for all of us.

I feel somewhat qualified to speak to this topic. Some years ago I was diagnosed with an AVM ... a kind of aneurysm. The docs told me that if it burst, I would have a 1/3 chance of dying outright, a 1/3 chance of being fine and a 1/3 chance of being a turnip (ok, not their term but you get the drift). When I received this news the whole idea of euthanasia became something I needed to consider practically rather than abstractly. It isn't an academic issue for me. There is about a 4% chance per year of my AVM bleeding out. I'm 46 which means the margin of statistical safety continues to narrow.

Having said that, I gave a great deal of consideration to my fate if I did end up paralyzed, unable to speak, etc. I decided I would not want to be kept alive under those conditions. I would opt for euthanasia. Since the laws of our land are clear on the matter, it has left me on the horns of a dilemma. I would be unable to pull the plug myself if I were incapacitated yet it is illegal to ask anyone else to do it. Where does that leave me? Do I drink the spiked kool-aid at the first sign of a bad headache? Not practical. I get migraines and so that doesn't work. Do I make a pact with a loved one and ask them to put themselves in jeopardy to help me?

I am a rational adult without any suicidal aspirations. I have given a great deal of thought to the issue. And yet you support laws that prevent me from choosing the fate of my body should I end up catatonic? If you have ever experienced paralysis (I have after some tests), I think you might change your mind on this. It's not pretty. To live that way is terrifying to me. To choose to die in this circumstance is not a coward's way out but a pragmatic option.

I don't think indiscriminate euthanasia is acceptable but I think there are grey areas in the issue. I think when it's done out of love by someone who knows the "victim" well it becomes a gift and not a crime. We can bandy around all kinds of philosophical opinions on this topic but I put forth the notion that when it is removed from ideology to reality, all your supporting arguments cannot hold up. Being trapped in a non-functioning body is not my idea of a good life and it needs to be my own right to choose.

 

[tibear]

Cosmo,

You make some very interesting points.

Your right that being trapped in a non-functioning body is not something that I would relish either, however, I still don't think that the responsibility of "mercy killing" should be up to the family or friends.

If "mercy killing" is something that this country wants to permit, even though I would personally be against it, I would hope that procedures are put into place that would:
1) ensure that the individual in question HAS given full consent
2) ensure that at least two psychological assessments are performed which agree that the person is capable of giving consent
3) ensure that at least two medical assessments are performed which agree that the person is suffering from a medical condition which isn't going to get better and that is life-threatening.
4) a licensed medical doctor sanctioned by the governing body performs the "procedure"

In this way, noone can say, their kinfolk said it was their wish that they be killed at the hands of family.

 

[Gonzo]

Sometimes families get involved which make the decision harder. My Grandmother was on life support and in a coma which she would never come out of. The doctor said there was nothing he could do. Yet my crazy alcoholic aunt didn't want to pull the plug. And it was delayed for a week, while my Grandmother was in a vegetative state.
Every circumstance is different and should be treated as such. But if someone wants to die, and they're in constatnt pain and will never get better, they should have that right.

 

[tibear]

Gonzo,

I'm sure your aunt's feelings toward you at the time were mutual.

Wouldn't it be nice if these decisions were taken out of the hands of families, so there wouldn't be any fighting???

IF(Big IF) we're going to have euthansia, leave the decision to the individual and the governing doctors to make the decision.

BTW, there is a big difference between this and abortion, in abortion the victim doesn't have a say.

As well, I still don't agree with euthanasia but as stated earlier it should have some guidelines.

 

[Reverend Blair]

What about if it's something sudden, tibear? I wouldn't want to live like that yet, being more or less healthy, I haven't written it down. I certainly haven't been for any assessments. Mrs. Rev knows how I feel about it though, and she would have, if allowed by law, no problem making the decision. She wouldn't like it, but she would know what I wanted.

That doesn't fulfill your criteria though, tibear. Would you keep me alive in a vegetative state anyway?

 

[Cosmo]

I agree, Tibear, that some sort of process would need to be put in place. To simply euthanize without proper determination, while appealing sometimes, is tatamount to murder. I have a whole list I'd like to euthanize just in case they get sick.

I do not espouse indiscriminate application but I do not agree with the laws that prevent me from determining my own future. Perhaps we are not as far apart on the issue as we thought?

 

[tibear]

RB,

I guess its similar to dying without a will. If you haven't made prior arrangements, the authorities have no choice but to make the decision for you.

If your living condition is such an important issue to you then you should probably get something in writing registered with a lawyer. Otherwise, your SOL.

Only in this manner can the authorities know for sure your wishes.

 

[PoliticalFirefly]

Life Support

To remove someone from life support shouldn't be considered "killing them" or "Murder." Taking into consideration that you have to be unconcious to be on life support, most likely in the ICU or observation wards, and more than 60 percent of the time, brain dead - A term stating that even though your Vital organs are working, your mental state is indefinitely dorment, you have to come to the obvious conclusion that the subject in question would be dead anyways without the machines.
Technically removing the plug is not killing the person, as an individual, or as a human being, but merely letting the body, and or womb of the soul and mind, do what it naturally is trying to do, move on.
Rarely, people who slip into acoma will awake from their medically-concerned slumber fully functioning, or capable of partial recovery in the future through completing various forms of physical, and mental therapy. Although, these recoveries are amazing, and considered miracles at times, they occur even less when people are on life support.
What most people don't realize is that if a subject is awakening out of acoma, they usually show signs of positive recovery first. At this point they are closely monitored, usually start breathing on their own, and - Uh ha! That's right, they are removed from life support! Here we have touched on a crucial point, they are partially sustaining their bodies essential functions on their own, in which case we have no right to remove any plugs, or to let them move on because their body is working on it's own.
Canada, if you do not already know, has consent forms allowing Doctors to pull life support plugs after a certain amount of time; of course only if there are no signs of improvement, or to not attempt life support at all if a tragic even should occur to that individual.
I agree with these forms, and think they are a good way of keeping peoples wishes, in life, and concerning death. In the long run, it is the person in questions choice if they want to live or die; not their families, friends, or doctor's.
There comes a point where Medical professionals have to make a joint decision with other staff members, or family members, as to what they should do next, and I believe that if your body is giving up even when put on oxygen, blood etc. then it is only right to let that happen. The human body is a temple, and we should respect it, and let God take those to heaven who have already mentally left their bodies, and are willing, and wanting to go.
As for Euthenasia, yes it is illegal, and yes, it is merciful, but I have to agree that it should be left illegal due to the many ways it could be abused if made acceptable in societies eye's.
Organized crime etc. could use the system of "Mercy Killing" or "Legal Euthenasia" for their own interest, and for the Canadian government, or any other government for that matter, to create a system safe enough, that would protect and stop all loop holes from occuring, would be nearly, if not completely impossible to create.
As a Christian and a very compassionate person, and although "Euthenasia" is considered illegal, and I have said I agree it should stay that way, I would not refuse the mercy, and act of love that some of these parents, friends, and loved ones have done for their hurting friends and family, wives, or sibblings, to anyone I cared about. Their pain would be my pain, and I would be willing to go to jail in the name of love for them, if they needed me to.
Some systems just aren't fair in regards to justice, and compassion; In the end it's up to you. If you could say "No" to tearful eyes, and agonizing pain reflecting back at you from a loved one, then support what you would like.
I am only writing these notes on paper for clarity, and to offer a personal view of what is within my heart.

God Bless. I hope I helped in some way.