Emerson Crosses the Floor!!!

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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RE: Emerson Crosses the F

"EVERYONE Liberal and Conservative supposedly is a democratic reformer until they get elected!!!!!"

remember the Reform promises of Preston? The old "when we get to Ottawa we won't accept any of the perks", but as soon as they got to Ottawa they had their hands in the proverbial trough. Anybody that looked at the history of the con party and the history of Harper should not be too surprised by this, yet I understand the resentment of realizing one has been duped so soon after the election.

Funny how a couple days ago the cons were whining about the Libs not disclosing the Dingwall severence prior to the election. Classic "if I do it, its ok. If you do it, its wrong".
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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www.mytimenow.net
Well how can we blame them I guess. The Canadian puplic never learns. We elect the same two basterd parties in over and over again.
Elect the NDP, elect the Green's elect the Libertians, I don't care but give someone else a chance. Anyhope I had in the CPC being different then the PC or Liberals is totally gone. :(
 

JomZ

Electoral Member
Aug 18, 2005
273
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Reentering the Fray at CC.net
Almost makes you want to not vote, since all we are doing is repainting the commons a new colour.

I blame the system that is Ottawa, it does things to people. I think you really don’t understand the system until you are actually in it, which I think is strongly linked to patronage and power brokering.

All these politicians get elected on these dreams of grandeur and then you go to Ottawa and these dreams get reduced to just being a small cog in a wheel that is the Bureaucracy. A well paying one at that, which is why it seems the only goal is to stay on top.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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www.kdm.ca
RE: Emerson Crosses the F

Exactly JomZ,

by the time one is in a position to create real change, the system has changed the person.

That is why we need a new framework for governance built by people not in the current system, and then presented to the people. For the change we need, we will have to put in place a new system that starts fresh (this is where IAC should come in to talk about the power of the beaurocrats....)
 

Durgan

Durgan
Oct 19, 2005
248
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Brantford, ON
www.durgan.org
A rat is a rat is a rat whether in school, prison and now apparently in Parliament.

There are mortuaries, slaughterhouses, dissecting rooms, churches, and rats; and one instinctively avoids such.

Durgan.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
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Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
By the way the system we have and the system you
have will always swallow up everyone of us, if we
became a politician rather than a comfortable critic.

And for my taste, we comfortable critics have very
few wise suggestions.

Instead of belittling our leaders, we should really
imagine how we would be in their place.

I highly doubt any one of us would do better.

And why ?

It's not the system.

It's us.

Everything we propose has a downside. More regulations ? Omigod. I wonder how our leaders
keep track of all the detail campaign finance laws.
I wonder how they stay clean of the mudslinging for
any stumble they make, every spur of the moment
thought they have mercilessly stupidly attacked by
we know-it-alls.

If our criticism had the form of actually walking in
their shoes, we might get a clue.

There is, however, two ways to get around
all this mire.

One has to do with the fancy tax codes we evolve.
The other has to do with Christmas tree bills that
have every unrelated item added that makes our leaders
unclear.

To me this is the core of this devil democracy, it's black hole core.
 

JomZ

Electoral Member
Aug 18, 2005
273
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Reentering the Fray at CC.net
Durgan said:
A rat is a rat is a rat whether in school, prison and now apparently in Parliament.

There are mortuaries, slaughterhouses, dissecting rooms, churches, and rats; and one instinctively avoids such.

Durgan.

Yet you acknowledge these entities exist (funny how church is on the list), and they serve a purpose of some sort. They also have an influence on your life, in one way or another. You cannot just avoid it, and hope it goes away. Rats don't just go away, they grow bolder and then you must get a cat (This is starting to sound like Tommy Douglas' Mouseland story) to hunt the rat down and destroy it

Unfortunately, the system in parliment needs some serious revamping. We cannot just let it go and hope the next guy comes along that will change. Its still based on a 19th century system, and resides in a gothic castle (Its a pretty neat plact, but it really demonstrates how one really loses perspective on reality).

We need serious people that can do serious things. Someone who just don't ride the wave, but fights against it. If Harper could do that (I doubt it) and make some dramatic changes to how the government operates then he will go down as a great PM, if not he will just be a mere shadow of a memory.
 

JomZ

Electoral Member
Aug 18, 2005
273
0
16
Reentering the Fray at CC.net
Re: RE: Emerson Crosses the Floor!!!

jimmoyer said:
By the way the system we have and the system you
have will always swallow up everyone of us, if we
became a politician rather than a comfortable critic.

And for my taste, we comfortable critics have very
few wise suggestions.

Instead of belittling our leaders, we should really
imagine how we would be in their place.

I highly doubt any one of us would do better.

And why ?

It's not the system.

It's us.

Everything we propose has a downside.

Maybe so, Jimmoyer,

It’s a part of the human condition to seek a path of least resistance when trying to accomplish tasks. Unfortunately, when it comes to governance this ideology does not apply, because their actions effect a wide range of people. Simple solutions to complex questions only create divisiveness and animosity among those who it affects negatively.

Canadians require a different and more open form of government; it is the only way that democracy can be maintained. Through the transparency of the officials, administration, finances, and actions of the government can be regularly monitored and examined by the electorate.

A true democracy will only work if its leaders are not afraid to be exposed to the people and their scrutiny.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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www.mytimenow.net
I don't know. If Harper had not done this today and not have acted for another few weeks I would have been happy in my mis-guided belief that Harper was at least a democratic reformer. Now I have a Neo-con anti-democratic. f*cking great...
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
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69
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
A true democracy will always have leaders who
SHOULD be afraid to expose themselves to the people.

They're right about us.

In fact they know more about almost every one
of these issues than we do.

Hard to believe, isn't it ?

They've been through steps of policy before it
became a new idea in our heads.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Re: RE: Emerson Crosses the Floor!!!

jimmoyer said:
A true democracy will always have leaders who
SHOULD be afraid to expose themselves to the people.

They're right about us.

In fact they know more about almost every one
of these issues than we do.

Hard to believe, isn't it ?

They've been through steps of policy before it
became a new idea in our heads.

In a Democracy yes, but not in a Republic. :D
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
TenPenny said:
So, let's hear everyone insist he resign and stand for a byelection.

David Emerson has crossed the floor to join the Tories.

Let the excuses begin!!!!!!!!!!! Will he get a cabinet post? Will we hear choruses of insults about how brainless he must be, and suggestions that he's nothing but a *censored*?

Come on, step up to the plate, all of you who had lots to say about Belinda Stronach.

Technically, in the Canadian electoral system, we vote for the individual, not the party, trusting that he will look out for our best interests eitehr way. If he choses to switch party or what have you, that's well within his right.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: Emerson Crosses the Floor!!!

TenPenny said:
And now it looks like an UN ELECTED person will be part of the cabinet?

That's a good step in the direction of responsibility, too.

He must have been elected, otherwise he would not be an MP.
 

Triple_R

Electoral Member
Jan 8, 2006
179
0
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While I do dislike this move on Harper's part, I think that jimmoyer raises a good point on "what would we do in the leader's shoes?".

Keep in mind that, according to the reports that I read, Emerson went to Harper... not the other way around. I doubt that leaders rarely, if ever, go around trying to recruit the MPs from other parties but that would look terribly slimey should it get out in the public.

Now... you're Harper. You have a very slim minority where every seat helps. B.C. is the one province where your party actually lost seats in the last election. David Emerson is considerred to be one of the major reasons for why the Liberals did well there in the last election. Emerson is also one of the few Liberal cabinet members that you liked during the last Parliament. He's coming to you, offering to cross the floor for a cabinet position. What do you do? If you tell him yes, that might tick off some backbenchers (who otherwise may have been cabinet ministers), and some people like us... but you have one more seat, stolen a leadership candidate from the Liberals, and gained one of BCs most popular politicians as well - potentially helping you in the only province you actually lost seats in for the next election.

If you say no, you make people like us happy, but if the party brass catches wind of your refusal to take on an extra seat, they may get extremely upset with you, asking "What the heck are you thinking? Every seat we could add is instrumental!".

So, either way, there's pros and cons.

Now, all of that being said, I do strongly dislike this, because I'm against people crossing the floor. When you vote for a candidate in your riding, you're not voting for just a candidate - you're voting for the candidate, the party, and the party leader. Sometimes the candidate may be the most important factor, but often it's not.
Many here have speculated that Emerson wouldn't win if he was running as a Conservative. That's quite possibly true. If Peter Kent had ran for the Liberals in the GTA, he would have won in a landslide. If Anne McLellan was a life-long Tory, she would have owned her seat in Alberta. Come on - we all know it's true. Party affiliation is often much more important in voter's minds than the actual riding candidate.

I am disappointed in Harper here (moreso with the Fortier Cabinet appointment actually - I really hate that move, and can honestly say that I would NOT have done that if I was in Harper's shoes; I'm honestly not sure what I would have done if Emerson came asking me for a cabinet position in return for crossing the floor).

So... unlike Liberal supporters who refuse to admit wrong-doing over the Dingwall situation, I'm willing to admit when the party I voted for is wrong. Harper is wrong here - on principle with Emerson (though pragmatically, I see why he did what he did) - and both in principle, AND pragmatically, on Fortier (I may have more to say on that later).

However, on cleaning up government, having fewer Belinda Stronach's isn't my hightest hope - having fewer David Dingwall's IS. I still hold out hope that Harper can clean up that aspect of government.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: Emerson Crosses the Floor!!!

manda said:
I think that It's time to disband all the parties and have all people run as independants, but running as supporters of a particular leadership candidate. But that would be the logical thing to do...and logic doesn't seem to be in abundance anywhere these days.

Before you slough this off, think about it. It could easily work, and people could vote on bills as they felt about them, rather than what the party pressured them to do, majority vote wins...

Could be an improvement.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
#juan said:
Hi Uncle

As Manda said, the parliament provides seats in different sections of the house for the different parties. Party in power on one side and the opposition parties on the other. It happens occasionally that some MP(member of parliament)changes his allegiance and walks "accross the floor" or "crosses the floor" and joins the other party. I personally don't think this is fair to the people who elected that member while he/she represented another party.

But this is making an assumption of voting habits. Some voters such as myself do not vote for the party but the dandidate, fully trusting in his ability to make the right decision about party allegiance. If we want to make an issue of this, then we ought to adopt proportional representaion based on parties rather than candidates. But I personally would rather vote for the candidate than the party.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
MMMike said:
In theory that would be great - everyone an independant and answerable only to their electorate and their conscience. The current party structure has some advantages though, like the ability to forge a vision and roadmap for the future. It also offers the lazy electorate a better sense of where the candidate stands. Imagine having to find out your numerous candidates views on everything! Many people cannot even be bothered to vote. And you could end up with a tremendous amount of candidates in every race. On the whole, I have no problem with the party system but it does need tweaking.

Would'nt that be a good thing, making people think more rather than saying "I'll vote for party X because my father, grandfather and great grandfatehr did." There are plenty like that. It could help to empower the population an dbe more responsible.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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Location, Location
Re: RE: Emerson Crosses the Floor!!!

Machjo said:
TenPenny said:
And now it looks like an UN ELECTED person will be part of the cabinet?

That's a good step in the direction of responsibility, too.

He must have been elected, otherwise he would not be an MP.

That comment was referring to Fortier. You've got to keep up. The Conservatives are a hard bunch to follow.

"Programs! Programs! Can't tell a Knight from a Day without yer programs!"
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,467
139
63
Location, Location
Re: RE: Emerson Crosses the Floor!!!

Triple_R said:
I am disappointed in Harper here (moreso with the Fortier Cabinet appointment actually - I really hate that move, and can honestly say that I would NOT have done that if I was in Harper's shoes; I'm honestly not sure what I would have done if Emerson came asking me for a cabinet position in return for crossing the floor).

Well, since both Emerson and Harper have stated that HARPER went after Emerson, that's a different kettle of fish.

On the Dingwall issue, I'll wait for a bit to see what the terms of his contract and severance were. It's all in the technicalities. He's always been scum, but that doesn't mean you can ignore legal contracts.