Elected Senate Reform?

[FiveParadox]

Perhaps we should start another topic for "Member Recall Legislation," eh?

Nonetheless, while on this "spawned topic," I would not intend my recall proposal to be used simply because a majority didn't vote for that party. I would intend for there to be an urgent or exceptional cause to have that Member removed.

Well, maybe this: As it is, the Speaker of the House of Commons rules when a request for an emergency debate is actually urgent enough to warrant it; perhaps he could do the same thing for "removal referenda?" He could rule on whether or not the Member had done something to warrant being immediately referred to the people?

 

[jimmoyer]

This sounds like the Canadian system gives too
much power to the party in the mistaken view that
such a party will represent an identifiable constituency
and ignores the power of a simple majority vote.

In 1913, the people of America were allowed
to directly vote for their Senators.

The Canadian system seems to really water down
the direct vote for a candidate, in favor of the
party system.

But, you know, after you get through all the pros and
cons, and all of the idiosyncracies of each democracy
in the world, the end result appears to be the
same for all democracies.

The end result appears to be the same appalling
diluted legislation of compromise for the lobbying
interest groups.

Whatever process you devise, the end results
appear to differ little.

Perhaps all this contortion over process misses the forest
for the tree in front of you blocking your view of
the forest.

Let's us look at all process as the rules in a game of
checkers.

Learn the rules, that you got to jump diagonally, but
that there are many ways to lose or win within those
agreed upon rules.

So now, where do you go with this overview ?

You then find out that all democracies whatever
their idiosyncracies have a commonality.

Whenever an issue gains CRITICAL MASS, things change.

We partisans for our own particular views suffer
before that CRITICAL MASS takes effect if ever it does.

And if it doesn't, then maybe the aggregate statistical
analysis of how to effect change needs reconsideration.

But CRITICAL MASS, the idea of physics, governs
the numbers, and is quite the common denominator
in effecting change in each idiosyncratic democracy
we devise.

 

[iamcanadian]

Democratic Renewal Secretariat:

Ontario's "Westminster" style democracy was imported from Britain over 130 years ago when Ontario was a very different place. The population was far less diverse and voting rights were restricted to a select few.

Since then, Ontario has developed into a diverse province in which all citizens get to have their say. Yet in the last election, only about half of all Ontarians voted. Many have lost faith in a system that, for too long, has been cynically manipulated to promote the interests of the government in power.

It's time to restore people's faith, bring our 19th century democratic traditions into the 21st century and bring citizens -- especially young people -- back to the centre of politics. The new secretariat is a first of its kind in Ontario. It will ensure meaningful reform by consulting with the people of Ontario, engaging youth and working to improve voter turnout.

http://www.democraticrenewal.gov.on.ca

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: Elected Senate Reform?

Democratic Renewal Secretariat:

Ontario's "Westminster" style democracy was imported from Britain over 130 years ago when Ontario was a very different place. The population was far less diverse and voting rights were restricted to a select few.

Since then, Ontario has developed into a diverse province in which all citizens get to have their say. Yet in the last election, only about half of all Ontarians voted. Many have lost faith in a system that, for too long, has been cynically manipulated to promote the interests of the government in power.

It's time to restore people's faith, bring our 19th century democratic traditions into the 21st century and bring citizens -- especially young people -- back to the centre of politics. The new secretariat is a first of its kind in Ontario. It will ensure meaningful reform by consulting with the people of Ontario, engaging youth and working to improve voter turnout.

http://www.democraticrenewal.gov.on.ca

How does that figure into Senate reform. I know about them too and have been on the mailing list since it came out. It moves extremely slowly and seems to not be interested in actual reform. If or when it actually does bring up a different system of an actual citizens assembly on the issue I think I'll be an old man.

 

[iamcanadian]

That's the problem. It does not move at all.

It has nice sounding mottos, but it appears to be a childrens fairytale portfolio to promote more voting in the existing system by going to schools and talking to kids.

Nothing is being done to fix democratic problem areas such as Caledon and Mississauga in Peel Region, where 10,000 people in Caledon have more right of vote than 75,000 people in Mississauga on government decision.

Not even a peep about it from this ministry. It appear to be a lip service and propaganda department, since it does not appear to do anything. It should be commenting on Senate Reform at least but has no possition.

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: Elected Senate Reform?

That's the problem. It does not move at all.

It has nice sounding mottos, but it appears to be a childrens fairytale portfolio to promote more voting in the existing system by going to schools and talking to kids.

Nothing is being done to fix democratic problem areas such as Caledon and Mississauga in Peel Region, where 10,000 people in Caledon have more right of vote than 75,000 people in Mississauga on government decision.

Not even a peep about it from this ministry. It appear to be a lip service and propaganda department, since it does not appear to do anything. It should be commenting on Senate Reform at least but has no possition.

It's funny how we randomly agree on a few matters. This is one of them. They move like a snail and they've not done anything at all about reforming the actual electoral system or even setting up a citizens assembly. It's as if they think we might forget about it or they are waiting for the feeling for change will blow over.

 

[FiveParadox]

Minority Limitations

It is extremely hard to get an agenda across with a Minority Government; the Opposition often opposes the measures of a Government, then blames the Government for having broken a promise, when in fact it was the Opposition who defeated such measures.

In any case, most mandates are between three and five years; none of the parties can really be blamed for not having brought up the controversial topic of electoral reform in a Parliament that had started collapsing in on itself from the very start.

 

[Finder]

Re: Minority Limitations

It is extremely hard to get an agenda across with a Minority Government; the Opposition often opposes the measures of a Government, then blames the Government for having broken a promise, when in fact it was the Opposition who defeated such measures.

In any case, most mandates are between three and five years; none of the parties can really be blamed for not having brought up the controversial topic of electoral reform in a Parliament that had started collapsing in on itself from the very start.

actually thats the Ontario Liberal government. But the Feds are that much more slower. There not even at that level yet. lol

 

[iamcanadian]

Re: Minority Limitations

It is extremely hard to get an agenda across with a Minority Government; the Opposition often opposes the measures of a Government, then blames the Government for having broken a promise, when in fact it was the Opposition who defeated such measures.

In any case, most mandates are between three and five years; none of the parties can really be blamed for not having brought up the controversial topic of electoral reform in a Parliament that had started collapsing in on itself from the very start.

Minority Governments should be considered a dirty word by the voters and citizens. With minority government there is no identifyable group of elected people making any decisions that can be blamed for anything. The government is therfore free to act in its own self-interest and the public gets screwed from not having any say one way or another.

 

[jimmoyer]

Minority Governments should be considered a dirty word by the voters and citizens. With minority government there is no identifyable group of elected people making any decisions that can be blamed for anything. The government is therfore free to act in its own self-interest and the public gets screwed from not having any say one way or another.

--------------------------iamcanadian----------------

Very good point.

And the reason why minority governments
are the wave of the future is that there will
not arise a charismatic leader who can unite.

Because people are so concerned about their
VOTE not counting (even when they lose), they have
the process assure their losing vote some
representation.

 

[iamcanadian]

Re: RE: Elected Senate Reform?

And the reason why minority governments are the wave of the future is that there will not arise a charismatic leader who can unite.

Because people are so concerned about their VOTE not counting (even when they lose), they have the process assure their losing vote some representation.

I believe instead that it is the fault of our non-elected public administrators who deliver government services in ways to manipulate public opinion so that it remains fragmented and keep elected representatives from having any power over governement activity, by advancing only puppets to represent the public.

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: Elected Senate Reform?

And the reason why minority governments are the wave of the future is that there will not arise a charismatic leader who can unite.

Because people are so concerned about their VOTE not counting (even when they lose), they have the process assure their losing vote some representation.

I believe instead that it is the fault of our non-elected public administrators who deliver government services in ways to manipulate public opinion so that it remains fragmented and keep elected representatives from having any power over governement activity, by advancing only puppets to represent the public.

I don't know what to say dude. sometimes I agree with you other times I think your one of those people with tin foil over there head.

Anyhow I'm under the impression that most of our unelected officials don't have enough power and they should be elected. Not that they control government. Besides the PM who we do not directly elect.

 

[iamcanadian]

That's what they want you to believe. But the truth is out there if people stop and think about it.

Bureaucrats are not elected and they hold public power for life and recommend their sucsessors.

 

[FiveParadox]

That may be the case, but those "beaurocrats" work under the jurisdiction of the Government; in whatever departments, agencies or ministries they may work, or for whatever corporation may be run in conjunction with or under the authority or legislative power of one of the fore mentioned — their performance is under our scrutiny, their authority is as delegated by our elected representatives, and they operate at the pleasure of Canadians.

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: Elected Senate Reform?

That's what they want you to believe. But the truth is out there if people stop and think about it.

Bureaucrats are not elected and they hold public power for life and recommend their sucsessors.

iamcanadian, bro this is one of those times I think your some guy wearing a tin foil hat....

 

[iamcanadian]

"their authority is as delegated by our elected representatives, and they operate at the pleasure of Canadians"

But when our elected representatives are scared of the bureaucrats and the absolute powers they alone have, then this is where there are big problems.

The Government is the people that work there. The elected representatives are us and the individuals from among us that we elect to over see what the government does. If those people are affraid and beholded to the Government and pander to the bureaucrats then we have no Elected Representation. We are electing puppets to fool ourselves into thinking the government does what the people want or need.

The government is instead doing whatever it wants and feeding us the propaganda to mislead us into electing people that won't interfere with what they do as much.

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: Elected Senate Reform?

"their authority is as delegated by our elected representatives, and they operate at the pleasure of Canadians"

But when our elected representatives are scared of the bureaucrats and the absolute powers they alone have, then this is where there are big problems.

The Government is the people that work there. The elected representatives are us and the individuals from among us that we elect to over see what the government does. If those people are affraid and beholded to the Government and pander to the bureaucrats then we have no Elected Representation. We are electing puppets to fool ourselves into thinking the government does what the people want or need.

The government is instead doing whatever it wants and feeding us the propaganda to mislead us into electing people that won't interfere with what they do as much.

IAMCANADIAN, I think you have it backwards. Because I personally think the Senate is more scared to act then elected reps who appear much more over confident and cocky these days and people like the Senate appear to keep a pretty low profile. I'm actually surprised the last GG had such a large profile, because it did bring presure down on her because her budget had increased and she was more of a puplic figure which brought up the issue many times that she was un-elected. But durning this time it can also be noted she caused no constitutional crisis, and she pretty much did what the PM wanted her to do and not the other way around. I totally believe the problem is coming from the lack of balls these unelected officials have, because, they are un-elected with no to little manadate.

Of course I'm not saying the Senate should be elected by popular vote either. read past posts for that.