Don't Blame Ontario!!

[Reverend Blair]

They are, in their present form, very divisive though, Crash. That divisiveness pushes some of the more conservative people in the west to consider separtism an alternative. It is impossible to separate western alienation, western separatism, and the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives.

The Conservatives are no longer the party of Joe Clark, or even Brian Mulroney. They are very much the child of Preston Manning and Stephen Harper. I at least have some respect for Manning...he believes in Canada as a country. I do not have the same respect for Harper because he believes is Alberta, more specifically the oil patch, as a country and wants the rest of the country to be just like them.

Now look at the response when the rest of Canada rejected Harper as a leader. The shouts for separatism grew louder, those on the right blamed Ontario instead of Harper.

I would say that your appraisal of disaffected voters is wrong. The largest demographic of disaffected voters are young people. They tend to vote much more left than other other demographics. If they were to show up at the polls, you would see the Conservatives fortunes sink even lower. Alberta and BC are no exception to that.

A relatively large number of those disaffected voters are also politically involved and aware. They do not feel represented by the two main parties and do not feel that voting for the parties of their choice will make a difference, so they stay home. I doubt they'd stay home in a vote to break away from the rest of Canada though.

Conservatism the way it is practiced by Stephen Harper and his ilk certainly does promote separatism. That is clear in statements he has made in the past and in the similar ideas that come from the separatist movement and the Conservatives.

 

[American Voice]

Crash and Blair, you guys are good, I've enjoyed reading your debate.

Blair, this is off-topic, but do you maintain any ties at all with the old country, the Ukraine? Separatist tensions there may inevitably erupt in war.

 

[Reverend Blair]

One of my great uncles went back to do research on the family. He remembers coming here as a child. Another relative...I think he was a cousin of my great-grandfather...came over after WWII. All I remember about him is that he fought at Stalingrad and his fingernails were always black because of something that happened there. He died in the 1970's.

There is a town named after my family in the Ukraine. I have no idea of its size, but I understand that it is quite wealthy by local standards.

My father's generation never learned English until they went to school. Ukranian was their first language growing up, even though they were born in Canada.

Those are my only connections to the Ukraine beyond what most Canadians, Ukrainian or not, have.

The situation in the former USSR has some serious lessons for those who would rip this country apart though. There is no easy way and the trouble and strife that result hurt everybody. It is not something that should be done lightly or because of fast-diminishing natural resources.

 

[American Voice]

Does the Hudson's Bay Company continue to be a dominant presence in Canada?

 

[Reverend Blair]

As a retailer, yes. They run The Bay and Zellers stores in the south and Northern Stores up north. They also maintain a huge historical archive, so through that can potentially influence a lot of what history gets taught.

They are not an influential force politically as they once were though.

 

[American Voice]

Thanks.

I am glad that Cargill is located in Minneapolis, rather than in Paris, or Berlin, or Moscow. A single commodities trading firm that can virtually set the price of agricultural commodities worldwide is best kept at home, don't you agree?

 

[Reverend Blair]

I'd be happier if Cargill didn't exist at all. I see your point though.

 

[crash]

They are, in their present form, very divisive though, Crash. That divisiveness pushes some of the more conservative people in the west to consider separtism an alternative. It is impossible to separate western alienation, western separatism, and the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives.

The Conservatives are no longer the party of Joe Clark, or even Brian Mulroney. They are very much the child of Preston Manning and Stephen Harper.

I at least have some respect for Manning...he believes in Canada as a country. I do not have the same respect for Harper because he believes is Alberta, more specifically the oil patch, as a country and wants the rest of the country to be just like them.

Now look at the response when the rest of Canada rejected Harper as a leader. The shouts for separatism grew louder, those on the right blamed Ontario instead of Harper.

I think this is very much the take from someone far on the outside of the party looking in. Also,

Though, I am thankful Joe Clark is no longer part of the party. His rejection of of uniting the right was and during his time as leader totally evaporated the tiny bit of respect he had within his own party

I would challenge you to tell me why Brian Mulroney and Stephen Harper are anything but ideological bretheren. Brian Mulroney, like him or love him also is very active behind the scenes in the party and has advised the new leader on many occassions.

Harper is very much a Canadian, he just has a decentralized vision of the country that doesn't mesh with yours. The members of the party east of Manitoba also do not see the divisiveness you speak of. Canadians in Ontario and Atlantic Canada who voted for the party en masse, did not see this divisiveness. This is despite the best efforts of people such as yourself to tell them so. Some comment Harper made out of context 10 years ago is not going to cut it for them, or me.

The party itself has a moderate leader by conservative standards and has adopoted vitrually word-for-word the constitution of the old PC party. Over 90% of both parties were in favor of the merge and Harper has almost completely marginialized the far right of the party (much to the dismay of some of the christian right). I find comments like yours from the left especially ironic since, now there is a lot of grumbles from the far right in the party on what Harper has done as leader. Seems, Harper has been rejected from both extremes, sounds like a moderate to me.

Fact of the matter this is the party of the past in most every respect.

Now back to our discussion of western separation:

You are right it is impossible to separate western alienation and western separatism, thats a no brainer. Reform/Alliance is only one part of a nation wide coalition of Conservatives. They thought that no matter who was in power that the views of the west were not suitably being heard since the power electoral base lies in central Canada. This part of the party existed before, some where even MPS they just didn't have such an identifyable moniker. Had reformers as a group been dedicated to western separatism they would not have gone the conciliatory route with other conservatives. They would have gone the separation route, with the formation of the new moderate party many reformers have actually left to persue it.

You are right in one respect though, like I have said in past posts westerners political culture, especially in Alberta is to the right. More so than other parts of the country. Naturally as I also have said any western separatists would have to be accordingly to the right. So yes, it is difficult to small c conservatism and western separatism since it is the predominant political culture.

I would say that your appraisal of disaffected voters is wrong. The largest demographic of disaffected voters are young people. They tend to vote much more left than other other demographics. If they were to show up at the polls, you would see the Conservatives fortunes sink even lower. Alberta and BC are no exception to that.

A relatively large number of those disaffected voters are also politically involved and aware. They do not feel represented by the two main parties and do not feel that voting for the parties of their choice will make a difference, so they stay home. I doubt they'd stay home in a vote to break away from the rest of Canada though.

I don't know if I made an apprasial per se but I can say with 100% certainty it is impossible to weigh the possible results of those people who are not voting. Fruthermore, as I said as far as Canadian democracy is concerned, if they are not voting they do not exist. Have you ever canvassed for a political party? Perhaps the largest percentage of a demographic that does not vote are youth but that does not mean the majority. I would say that equal amounts of conservative voters also do not vote for sometimes completely different reasons across the demographic spectrum (youth included).

I agree with you that there are most certainly a lot of NDP voters or Marxists or what have you who are very aware and are not voting. There are also a lot of possible Christian heritage party supporters who either don't vote for them or don't vote at all for the same reason.

There are also a lot of very aware Conservatives and Liberals who just don't go out to the polls because the results are so predictable its not even worth casting a ballot. I know had I not been so involved in the political process I would not have even voted since my riding was such a foregone conclusion as to who was going to win.

One thing is for sure, debating these numbers is very intangible, suspect and very easily mainipulated by the person whose cause it suits. Election numbers for a particular political party are also pretty usless in the context of our discussion of who would vote for who in a referendum.

Conservatism the way it is practiced by Stephen Harper and his ilk certainly does promote separatism. That is clear in statements he has made in the past and in the similar ideas that come from the separatist movement and the Conservatives.

I disagree, Stephen Harper has always been about a fair shake for the west and nothing more. He is not commanding personality cult of western separatists behind the scenes, just so happens a lot of the western members of the party, and voters and thus his supporters are soft separatists.

 

[Reverend Blair]

I think this is very much the take from someone far on the outside of the party looking in.

Except that because of where I come from and people I know, I hear this from within the separatist movement, the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives, and red tories who left the party. That's a pretty wide swath of Canadian conservatism.

I would challenge you to tell me why Brian Mulroney and Stephen Harper are anything but ideological bretheren.

They are ideological brethren when it comes to their neo-conservative ideals and their love affair with all things American. Where the split came, and it caused Harper to leave Mulroney's party, is that Mulroney believed in all of Canada while Harper is really interested only in Alberta. Harper's version of Canada consists of the "have" provinces keeping all that they have and the "have not" provinces starving. That's a tune that will change as oil becomes less important to the economy, which is the basis of Harper's rejection of Kyoto.

We could tell Mulroney was active behind the scenes by the huge debt that the proposed Conservative platform would have left us in.

Harper is very much a Canadian, he just has a decentralized vision of the country that doesn't mesh with yours. The members of the party east of Manitoba also do not see the divisiveness you speak of.

Funny, I heard different from people all over the country, many who voted for Harper in an attempt to oust the Liberals, many who actually agree with the Americanisation of Canada.

Some comment Harper made out of context 10 years ago is not going to cut it for them, or me.

Funny, everytime I saw one of Harper's quotes the context was given. When he said what he said doen't matter when taken in the context of the last election either. He was still arguing that Alberta should be able to keep everything and that the other provinces didn't matter. He came out against Kyoto, which most Canadians outside of Alberta support, he never did manage to weasle out of his support for the illegal invasion of Iraq, which few Canadians still support, his military policy clearly supported bilateral action with the US over multilateral action through the UN.

These are not views held by the majority of Canadians and are held most strongly in Alberta. Harper based his policies on what Albertans consider important, not what Canadians consider important, and was beaten for it.

He is not considered moderate by the majority of Canadians. The majority of Canadians find his policies way too far to the right. His refusal to rein in the religious right in his party also caused massive problems for him. Most Canadians do not want other people's religious beliefs being introduced in the House of Commons...not even as private members bills.

They thought that no matter who was in power that the views of the west were not suitably being heard since the power electoral base lies in central Canada.

Since we live in a democracy and the majority of the population is in Ontario and Quebec, that's going to be reality for a long time. Alberta did get two more seats this time around though, based on population. Gee, democracy in action...more votes, more say.

Had reformers as a group been dedicated to western separatism they would not have gone the conciliatory route with other conservatives. They would have gone the separation route, with the formation of the new moderate party many reformers have actually left to persue it.

Yeah, and Lucien Bouchard was never a part of Mulroney's cabinet either. Quebec and Alberta may be different in a lot of ways, but don't think the formation of the BQ went unnoticed in the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives.

You are right in one respect though, like I have said in past posts westerners political culture, especially in Alberta is to the right. More so than other parts of the country. Naturally as I also have said any western separatists would have to be accordingly to the right. So yes, it is difficult to small c conservatism and western separatism since it is the predominant political culture.

First of all, the west starts about a ten minute drive east of my house, there's a big, green sign, so kindly quit referring to Alberta as the west. It is not the west, it is Alberta. Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and BC have all elected NDP governments provincially on a fairly regular basis, so your assessment that the west has a predominantly conservative political culture is highly suspect.

I don't know if I made an apprasial per se but I can say with 100% certainty it is impossible to weigh the possible results of those people who are not voting.

It's not impossible though. Most polls among non-voters show that they lean to left. Those that do lean to the right tend to be libertarian. The general theme presented by both groups is that corporations run everything anyway, so there isn't much point in voting.

Fruthermore, as I said as far as Canadian democracy is concerned, if they are not voting they do not exist.

That is not true. A Member of Parliament represents all of their constituents, whether they voted or not. Politics is not just a game played at the polls every four years or so.

Have you ever canvassed for a political party?

Yes.

Perhaps the largest percentage of a demographic that does not vote are youth but that does not mean the majority. I would say that equal amounts of conservative voters also do not vote for sometimes completely different reasons across the demographic spectrum (youth included).

Again, not what has shown up in polls.

I agree with you that there are most certainly a lot of NDP voters or Marxists or what have you who are very aware and are not voting.

Why is it that those on the right always manage to lump Marxists in with the NDP? You forgot to mention Greens who have left the party because it has become so right wing; CAP supporters who did not have a candidate or knew that their candidate could not win; all those people who have disaffected by the NDP because they perceive provincial NDP governments as being too far right; and all those people who have given up voting because they feel that our democracy has been lost to the corporations.

I disagree, Stephen Harper has always been about a fair shake for the west and nothing more. He is not commanding personality cult of western separatists behind the scenes, just so happens a lot of the western members of the party, and voters and thus his supporters are soft separatists.

Disagree all you want. His words and proposed policies are a matter of public record. He has a long-standing tradition of taking his bat and ball and going home if he doesn't get his way, that's why Preston Manning called him a quitter.

Harper's followers have the same attitude. That's why when Canadians rejected their policies and ideas they started screaming, once again and louder than ever, that Alberta should separate...take their bat and ball and go home. It took a long time for the movers and shakers behind the scenes in the Conservative Party to convince Harper not to embarrass himself again by quitting, but they have yet to find a way to silence Harper's spiritual twins.

 

[crash]

Except that because of where I come from and people I know, I hear this from within the separatist movement, the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives, and red tories who left the party. That's a pretty wide swath of Canadian conservatism.

You don't have any real concept of the party east of Manitoba, thats for sure. I don't care who you talk to.

There is no CRCA takeover, all ridings in Canada have an equal say, the constitution is the same as the PC party constitution almost word for word. The central and eastern Canada is not just along for the ride, it is the power base of the party. It would never sign on to any leader or policies there were not moderate, maybe not by your standards, but conservative ones. The party got over a 90% mandate from the PC party from across the country.

Harper won by default cause he was the only creditable candidate offering.

They are ideological brethren when it comes to their neo-conservative ideals and their love affair with all things American.

:roll:

Where the split came, and it caused Harper to leave Mulroney's party, is that Mulroney believed in all of Canada while Harper is really interested only in Alberta. Harper's version of Canada consists of the "have" provinces keeping all that they have and the "have not" provinces starving. That's a tune that will change as oil becomes less important to the economy, which is the basis of Harper's rejection of Kyoto.

We could tell Mulroney was active behind the scenes by the huge debt that the proposed Conservative platform would have left us in.

Its your story make it as long as you wish....

Equalization is gaurenteed under the constitution and any attempt to drastically alter it as you suggest would be political suicide.

Harper left the party, like other reformers cause he felt the western base of the party wasn't getting a fair shake by any party. There was no separation.

Harper as one of the founders of the balanced budget movement in Canada and would not have run a defecit. The tax and spend socialists out there we are not so sure about....Luckily we will never find out since they have a snowballs chance in hell of reaching power anywhere in the foreseeable future.

Funny, I heard different from people all over the country, many who voted for Harper in an attempt to oust the Liberals, many who actually agree with the Americanisation of Canada.

Yeah and I heard small l liberals across the country and my own riding vote conservative too who actually agree with his economic policy.

I guess if supporters = ideology Harper is a liberal too

Funny, everytime I saw one of Harper's quotes the context was given. When he said what he said doen't matter when taken in the context of the last election either. He was still arguing that Alberta should be able to keep everything and that the other provinces didn't matter. He came out against Kyoto, which most Canadians outside of Alberta support, he never did manage to weasle out of his support for the illegal invasion of Iraq, which few Canadians still support, his military policy clearly supported bilateral action with the US over multilateral action through the UN.

These are not views held by the majority of Canadians and are held most strongly in Alberta. Harper based his policies on what Albertans consider important, not what Canadians consider important, and was beaten for it.

He is not considered moderate by the majority of Canadians. The majority of Canadians find his policies way too far to the right. His refusal to rein in the religious right in his party also caused massive problems for him. Most Canadians do not want other people's religious beliefs being introduced in the House of Commons...not even as private members bills.

I am pleased that you now seem to agree with me that the majority of Albertans are of a predominant conservative political culture.

I agree absolutely about reigning in the religious right, i believe in the separation of church and state. Not that he didn't try though, people who made stupid comments were repremended within the party.

I know for certain that the NDP is a party at odds with the feelings of the majority of Canadians. This is shown by their pathetic election results in every federal election ever. Their ideology has clearly always been wayyy too far to the left for the liking of Canadians. I agree and have said in the past Stephen Harper will never be PM, but Jack Layton will never be even the leader offical opposition, and Jack Harris will be lucky if he ever even gets to sit in parliament as the leader of the Green Party.

I know Harper is not considered a moderate by the left, that much is evident. As I have told you before the far right everywhere espectially in Alberta are furious with how under Harper the religious right has been mariginalized. Harper's polices were based on the feelings of the majority of his constituants across the counrty where he elected an MP in every region but the north and Quebec.

Then again none of this makes him less Canadian.

Since we live in a democracy and the majority of the population is in Ontario and Quebec, that's going to be reality for a long time. Alberta did get two more seats this time around though, based on population. Gee, democracy in action...more votes, more say.

Who is arguing with you there?

I am simply giving an arguement in this particular case from the perspective of westerners who started this movement. That is what they don't like...

Do you feel as if Quebecers too are being silly with their feelings towards the ROC? It is democracy afterall.... should they just suck it up and deal with it?

Yeah, and Lucien Bouchard was never a part of Mulroney's cabinet either. Quebec and Alberta may be different in a lot of ways, but don't think the formation of the BQ went unnoticed in the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives.

You're right, still the party did not go the route of the BQ. They went in the opposite direction to the conciliatory route.

First of all, the west starts about a ten minute drive east of my house, there's a big, green sign, so kindly quit referring to Alberta as the west. It is not the west, it is Alberta. Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and BC have all elected NDP governments provincially on a fairly regular basis, so your assessment that the west has a predominantly conservative political culture is highly suspect.

My appoligies it is annoying to type out Alberta and non GVA BC every time and since western separatism has its bedrock in these areas its an easy way of generalizing. That being said us easterners don't consider Manitoba as being very west in any respect of the word. We actually find it perplexing when westerners call Ontario "easterners".

It's not impossible though. Most polls among non-voters show that they lean to left. Those that do lean to the right tend to be libertarian. The general theme presented by both groups is that corporations run everything anyway, so there isn't much point in voting.

Impossible.....you are again talking about things that are impossible to quantify. Those who are not interested in participating in the democratic process also have little time for polls. I haven't even tried to find a poll to back up my cause for that very reason....

Data collected especially from these mysterious poll you cite would be suspect. This is a subject for an honors thesis not something that can be said to be 100% true based on some poll that you saw one or two times time. Even the author of the honors thesis who spent massive amounts of time into analyzing a multitude of data and voter behavior would probably not be as bold as your self to make some of these proclaimations.

Why is it that those on the right always manage to lump Marxists in with the NDP? You forgot to mention Greens who have left the party because it has become so right wing; CAP supporters who did not have a candidate or knew that their candidate could not win; all those people who have disaffected by the NDP because they perceive provincial NDP governments as being too far right; and all those people who have given up voting because they feel that our democracy has been lost to the corporations.

I was generalizing about the far left vote. I didn't even mention all the parties as you have pointed out, just threw two parties out there. Though the Greens don't like to be called a left wing party anyway so I have heard.

Unlike yourself I will not be as so bold to say I know about every inner working and opion of people who support a party I do not. But too far to the right? Yikes scary....

I also mentioned the Liberal and Conservative parties together. ...

Disagree all you want. His words and proposed policies are a matter of public record.

Right, none of which imply in the slighest he is any less Canadian than you or I. The arrogance that someone who feels differently than you is a separatist or a "wanna be american" is astounding.

He has a long-standing tradition of taking his bat and ball and going home if he doesn't get his way, that's why Preston Manning called him a quitter.

Harper's followers have the same attitude. That's why when Canadians rejected their policies and ideas they started screaming, once again and louder than ever, that Alberta should separate...take their bat and ball and go home. It took a long time for the movers and shakers behind the scenes in the Conservative Party to convince Harper not to embarrass himself again by quitting, but they have yet to find a way to silence Harper's spiritual twins.

Yet he hasn't taken his bat and ball and gone home. I don't know where you get your info about Conservative backroomers but its your story....make it as long as you like. The Conservative backroomers I know said the day the story broke that he wasn't leaving....

I don't know how the left is with good old Jack Layton (who is too far to the right?) but Harper's followers as I said are not some personality cult that simply follow him around and try to emulate him in every way. They just vote for him, some happen to be separatists with his strong stance on regional rights and decentralization its a no brainer.

The Liberal party and even *gasp* NDP voters no doubt have soft separatists voting for them election. This is evidenced by the fact that many Harper voters or even supporters are not following Harper towards the official opposition of the country of Canada but to a movement of outright separation from Canada.

 

[lordroho]

We in the West will always feel alienated by those in the East and until we have equal representation in parliment(with every provience having the same number of elected officals)as basically now,all a party has to do is to get a majority of the votes in Ontario and Quebec...
The West will ALWAYS come out second best because the Eastern politicians(which there are more of) will look after Eastern interests!!

 

[Reverend Blair]

That's called democracy, lordroho. There are many more people in Ontario and Quebec than there are in the western provinces. Alberta gained two seats this time though...a reflection of their growing population.

 

[Heretic]

If there ever was a province in more need of separating it's Ontario. We have a third of the country's population we pay more in taxes than any other province even after equalization payments. Until oil was found in Alberta Ontario subsidized the entire country. In fact it was our gasoline tax that subsidized the oil exploration in Alberta. We have had Conservative goverments in our province for more than 40 yrs until that run was broken by the liberals in the 80's
Ii would also point out that the demographic has changed here with far more new canadians concentrated around the toronto area which has shifted the vote away from the conservatives.

We are the industrial machine of this country and our life's blood is being sucked out of us by the current way confederation works.

 

[Jay]

The Charter should have a clause in it that stipulates "Once a year, the premiers from the other 9 provinces should meet in Toronto and bend on one knee and kiss the ass of the Ontario premier".

 

[Heretic]

ah don't bother. never asked you to in the first place. and besides we all know quebec has its buttocks raised high for such an honour...

I've stated my position "ONTARIO OUT NOW!" and just to prove I'm not being nasty I would carve out the region of Ottawa and you can have it. As an added bonus I would move our capitol out of toronto. just to take the mickey out of them.(wait that would be our bonus)

The truth is geography has made the west distant . Politics has made quebec a thorn in the side. P.E.T made the deal with Peter allowing world market pricing way back when.

So the west can do what ever it wants just make sure to include manitoba and saskatchewan

 

[Student Standard]

:idea: Back in the day durring Tredeau years the N.E.P was introduced. If i understand correctly (Correct me if im wrong) oOntario wasn't makeing a big fuss about it cause they liked the benifit. :idea:




Check OUt MY Post ON Western Seperatism

 

[Student Standard]

Re: RE: Don't Blame Ontario!!

The Charter should have a clause in it that stipulates "Once a year, the premiers from the other 9 provinces should meet in Toronto and bend on one knee and kiss the ass of the Ontario premier".

Sounds like he's been taking lessons from Bush when he does it to his dad 8)