Reverend Blair said:
Except that because of where I come from and people I know, I hear this from within the separatist movement, the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives, and red tories who left the party. That's a pretty wide swath of Canadian conservatism.
You don't have any real concept of the party east of Manitoba, thats for sure. I don't care who you talk to.
There is no CRCA takeover, all ridings in Canada have an equal say, the constitution is the same as the PC party constitution almost word for word. The central and eastern Canada is not just along for the ride, it is the power base of the party. It would never sign on to any leader or policies there were not moderate, maybe not by your standards, but conservative ones. The party got over a 90% mandate from the PC party from across the country.
Harper won by default cause he was the only creditable candidate offering.
They are ideological brethren when it comes to their neo-conservative ideals and their love affair with all things American.
:roll:
Where the split came, and it caused Harper to leave Mulroney's party, is that Mulroney believed in all of Canada while Harper is really interested only in Alberta. Harper's version of Canada consists of the "have" provinces keeping all that they have and the "have not" provinces starving. That's a tune that will change as oil becomes less important to the economy, which is the basis of Harper's rejection of Kyoto.
We could tell Mulroney was active behind the scenes by the huge debt that the proposed Conservative platform would have left us in.
Its your story make it as long as you wish....
Equalization is gaurenteed under the constitution and any attempt to drastically alter it as you suggest would be political suicide.
Harper left the party, like other reformers cause he felt the western base of the party wasn't getting a fair shake by any party. There was no separation.
Harper as one of the founders of the balanced budget movement in Canada and would not have run a defecit. The tax and spend socialists out there we are not so sure about....Luckily we will never find out since they have a snowballs chance in hell of reaching power anywhere in the foreseeable future.
Funny, I heard different from people all over the country, many who voted for Harper in an attempt to oust the Liberals, many who actually agree with the Americanisation of Canada.
Yeah and I heard small l liberals across the country and my own riding vote conservative too who actually agree with his economic policy.
I guess if supporters = ideology Harper is a liberal too
Funny, everytime I saw one of Harper's quotes the context was given. When he said what he said doen't matter when taken in the context of the last election either. He was still arguing that Alberta should be able to keep everything and that the other provinces didn't matter. He came out against Kyoto, which most Canadians outside of Alberta support, he never did manage to weasle out of his support for the illegal invasion of Iraq, which few Canadians still support, his military policy clearly supported bilateral action with the US over multilateral action through the UN.
These are not views held by the majority of Canadians and are held most strongly in Alberta. Harper based his policies on what Albertans consider important, not what Canadians consider important, and was beaten for it.
He is not considered moderate by the majority of Canadians. The majority of Canadians find his policies way too far to the right. His refusal to rein in the religious right in his party also caused massive problems for him. Most Canadians do not want other people's religious beliefs being introduced in the House of Commons...not even as private members bills.
I am pleased that you now seem to agree with me that the majority of Albertans are of a predominant conservative political culture.
I agree absolutely about reigning in the religious right, i believe in the separation of church and state. Not that he didn't try though, people who made stupid comments were repremended within the party.
I know for certain that the NDP is a party at odds with the feelings of the majority of Canadians. This is shown by their pathetic election results in every federal election ever. Their ideology has clearly always been wayyy too far to the left for the liking of Canadians. I agree and have said in the past Stephen Harper will never be PM, but Jack Layton will never be even the leader offical opposition, and Jack Harris will be lucky if he ever even gets to sit in parliament as the leader of the Green Party.
I know Harper is not considered a moderate by the left, that much is evident. As I have told you before the far right everywhere espectially in Alberta are furious with how under Harper the religious right has been mariginalized. Harper's polices were based on the feelings of the majority of his constituants across the counrty where he elected an MP in every region but the north and Quebec.
Then again none of this makes him less Canadian.
Since we live in a democracy and the majority of the population is in Ontario and Quebec, that's going to be reality for a long time. Alberta did get two more seats this time around though, based on population. Gee, democracy in action...more votes, more say.
Who is arguing with you there?
I am simply giving an arguement in this particular case from the perspective of westerners who started this movement. That is what they don't like...
Do you feel as if Quebecers too are being silly with their feelings towards the ROC? It is democracy afterall.... should they just suck it up and deal with it?
Yeah, and Lucien Bouchard was never a part of Mulroney's cabinet either. Quebec and Alberta may be different in a lot of ways, but don't think the formation of the BQ went unnoticed in the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives.
You're right, still the party did not go the route of the BQ. They went in the opposite direction to the conciliatory route.
First of all, the west starts about a ten minute drive east of my house, there's a big, green sign, so kindly quit referring to Alberta as the west. It is not the west, it is Alberta. Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and BC have all elected NDP governments provincially on a fairly regular basis, so your assessment that the west has a predominantly conservative political culture is highly suspect.
My appoligies it is annoying to type out Alberta and non GVA BC every time and since western separatism has its bedrock in these areas its an easy way of generalizing. That being said us easterners don't consider Manitoba as being very west in any respect of the word. We actually find it perplexing when westerners call Ontario "easterners".
It's not impossible though. Most polls among non-voters show that they lean to left. Those that do lean to the right tend to be libertarian. The general theme presented by both groups is that corporations run everything anyway, so there isn't much point in voting.
Impossible.....you are again talking about things that are impossible to quantify. Those who are not interested in participating in the democratic process also have little time for polls. I haven't even tried to find a poll to back up my cause for that very reason....
Data collected especially from these mysterious poll you cite would be suspect. This is a subject for an honors thesis not something that can be said to be 100% true based on some poll that you saw one or two times time. Even the author of the honors thesis who spent massive amounts of time into analyzing a multitude of data and voter behavior would probably not be as bold as your self to make some of these proclaimations.
Why is it that those on the right always manage to lump Marxists in with the NDP? You forgot to mention Greens who have left the party because it has become so right wing; CAP supporters who did not have a candidate or knew that their candidate could not win; all those people who have disaffected by the NDP because they perceive provincial NDP governments as being too far right; and all those people who have given up voting because they feel that our democracy has been lost to the corporations.
I was generalizing about the far left vote. I didn't even mention all the parties as you have pointed out, just threw two parties out there. Though the Greens don't like to be called a left wing party anyway so I have heard.
Unlike yourself I will not be as so bold to say I know about every inner working and opion of people who support a party I do not. But too far to the right? Yikes scary....
I also mentioned the Liberal and Conservative parties together. ...
Disagree all you want. His words and proposed policies are a matter of public record.
Right, none of which imply in the slighest he is any less Canadian than you or I. The arrogance that someone who feels differently than you is a separatist or a "wanna be american" is astounding.
He has a long-standing tradition of taking his bat and ball and going home if he doesn't get his way, that's why Preston Manning called him a quitter.
Harper's followers have the same attitude. That's why when Canadians rejected their policies and ideas they started screaming, once again and louder than ever, that Alberta should separate...take their bat and ball and go home. It took a long time for the movers and shakers behind the scenes in the Conservative Party to convince Harper not to embarrass himself again by quitting, but they have yet to find a way to silence Harper's spiritual twins.
Yet he hasn't taken his bat and ball and gone home. I don't know where you get your info about Conservative backroomers but its your story....make it as long as you like. The Conservative backroomers I know said the day the story broke that he wasn't leaving....
I don't know how the left is with good old Jack Layton (who is too far to the right?) but Harper's followers as I said are not some personality cult that simply follow him around and try to emulate him in every way. They just vote for him, some happen to be separatists with his strong stance on regional rights and decentralization its a no brainer.
The Liberal party and even *gasp* NDP voters no doubt have soft separatists voting for them election. This is evidenced by the fact that many Harper voters or even supporters are not following Harper towards the official opposition of the country of Canada but to a movement of outright separation from Canada.