Cross-Border Abortions Must be Outlawed

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Cosmo

House Member
Jul 10, 2004
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Re: RE: Cross-Border Abortion

Reverend Blair said:
The fathers always could have worn a rubber, Cosmo. I have little patience for those who don't use birth control and then want no part of the resultant responsibility.

I have even more trouble with the parents, teachers, and preachers who oppose sex education and the availability for birth control for kids, then don't want girls to have abortions and treat STDs as some sign from god that the kids are evil.

We do need some new laws. The first one we need is a law saying that any adult who tells a kid not to use protection is committing child abuse.

I absolutely agree with your last statement, Rev. It is child abuse of the highest order.

I, too, get enraged and frustrated with those adults who don't use birth control. Kids it's a bit different. They don't understand the far reaching consequences of their actions. They cannot be expected to make good choices when hormones are raging and the delight of all this new physical stuff is overwhelming. Shit does happen when you're a kid. It's supposed to! That's how we gain experience. I just hate seeing a kid's life impacted forever by bad choices.

I don't see abortion as a form of birth control. I maintain that there need to be laws in place. Any woman who has more than two abortions needs to be sterilized. Nazi approach, perhaps, but if a woman can't be trusted to take care of her reproductive organs, she ought to lose the privilege. Now that's probably opened a big can of worms! ;)

I also think pregnancy is a woman's issue, not a man's. It is us who makes the decisions about our bodies. I'm not talking about nuclear family units who either plan babies or "ooops" one and deal with that, I'm talking about single women who accidentally get pregnant. It happens.

I was married a zillion years ago. I missed my monthly and when I checked my birth control pills, I discovered they were outdated. Can you say panic attack??? I called the doctor, the lawyer, the fire department ... basically freaked out. Turned out it was a false alarm, but having a baby at that point in my life (I was 19) would have been the worst thing that could ever have happened to me.

I was already an accomplished alcoholic with an enormous chip on my shoulder and a self-centred bent. Not exactly the right material for motherhood. I would have kept the child for exactly the same reason I got married ... I would have thought I was supposed to. I'd probably be famous today as the mother of a serial killer! I wasn't fit to raise vipers, never mind babies.

I'm pretty much the opposite end of the maternal scale from you, Manda. I mostly don't like kids. I'm too self centred and aware enough of my shortcomings not to have cursed any kids to growing up under my tutelage. Abortion would certainly have been the smart choice for me back then. Having been in that position through no carelessness of my own, I understand how it can happen and why some women should not give birth. It also made me realize that the issue was mine, not my husband's. He would disagree, I'm sure.

I find this an interesting topic. As long as people stay away from the bible beating rhetoric, I enjoy hearing differing opinions. There's certainly no pat answer to the problem, though.
 

Andygal

Electoral Member
May 13, 2005
518
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BC
RE: Cross-Border Abortion

I'm not sure if I could bring myself to have an abortion but I am adamantly pro-choice. Just because I might not want to do it doesn't mean that other people shouldn't have the right to choose what to do with their bodies and their lives.

I am in university right now, if I got pregnant today it would probably be best for me to get an abortion. It would be a painful choice to have to make and I definately intend to use birth control untill I am ready for kids but that would be my best choice right now if something did happen.
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
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8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
Re: RE: Cross-Border Abortion

Andygal said:
I am in university right now, if I got pregnant today it would probably be best for me to get an abortion. It would be a painful choice to have to make and I definately intend to use birth control untill I am ready for kids but that would be my best choice right now if something did happen.

Yes it would be a painful choice to make...all the really important choices are...

The choice will be made either way, and the question is not whether or not the choice should be made, but if we would rather it be made by the individual affected, or by the church acting through the state...

...and if the anti-choice people were to win this battle, then they would next attack the right for families to decide upon DNR orders, and taking loved ones off of life support after they have lost quality of life...and there would be contestation of the validity of living wills if they should contravene church doctrine...because it is the church that drives the anti-choice crowd...even if some of them don't know it...
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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Oklahoma, USA
Re: RE: Cross-Border Abortion

manda said:
Reverend Blair said:
Was she really kidnapped? The source you cite, Faux Gnus, is far less than reliable. You are also dealing with a fourteen year girl who was being pressured to carry out an unwanted pregnancy. For all we know, she asked to be taken to Pennsylvania.

She may have, but then again she may not have wanted to go. At 14 I would have been scared sh#tless to say "no" to my boyfriends parents.

I don't believe in abortion myself, except for in extreme extenuating circumstances. This comes from a person who decided to keep and do a damn good job at raising the child that she had not planned, and who was conceived in a very extreme situation, at 17, and who is facing the prospect of not being able to have any more children.

Those who go out and don't proctect themselves against pregnancy, and then use abortion, and the killing of a fetuus (I believe that life begins at conception) as a means of birth control infuriate me, those who don't take responsiblity for their actions and then throw away a very precious gift of life that others (like myself) would give an arm and a leg to have. The very thought of it makes me just breakdown and cry, like I'm doing right now.

At the very least they could adopt the child out and bless those who don't have other available options with the gift of a beutiful child


It's just NOT fair


Excellent points Manda. I fully agree!
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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Oklahoma, USA
Re: RE: Cross-Border Abortion

manda said:
Cosmo said:
Manda ... I agree. It's not fair at all. I have a friend who I knew would be an incredible parent who could not have babies. I even entertained the idea of having a baby for her. Well, entertained it for a split second -- the idea of having a human being growing inside my body mortifies me. I could never do it. Thankfully she now has 2 beautiful adopted girls.

I've known women who gave children up for adoption. It is one of the bravest, most selfless acts a human can do. But it affects these women for the rest of their lives. I don't know if I could be that brave. Add to the mix that most adoptive kids come from teens who are not psychologically prepared for something so enormous and it's amazing that anyone gives babies up.

I am an absolute supporter of pro choice, no ambivlance at all. But any woman strong enough to carry and child for those who cannot is a hero to me. I still maintain, however, that if the fathers of these children make it clear they don't want to raise a child or have any responsibility in it, they should be given that freedom as well. Our present laws are flawed.

I agree whole heartedly with almost all of your post Cosmo.

I have seen dear friends, and yes, I still love them, despite the fact that I could not agree with their decision, have abortions and then feel guilty beyond belief, one to the point of being hospitalised for psychiatric evaluation. Any decision in this situation is going to affect the rest of your life, but given my position and what I have lived, I just can not agree with abortion, although, I don't hold anything against thse who can

Manda, what gets me is that there are perfectly developed countries in the world (like Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Ireland...etc) that have the common decency to realize that killing an unborn baby is unacceptable, thus have NO ABORTION laws. Those are countries that really respect human life. If they can do it why can't Canada/US come to it's senses and stop this crazyness and adopt the same laws.

If a mom doesn't want to keep her baby for whatever reason, I am sure there are many families willing to adopt. Currently, many childless families need to head overseas to adopt a child.
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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true Peapod, but we live in a society that acknowledges that murder is wrong ...hmmm, actually acknowledges that some murder is wrong.

Example ...if you hear on the news that a serial killer is loose and is on a spree, then you will hope folks do not mind their own business. Same thing applies to abortion. As long as babies are needlessly killed, there will always be folks around who will try to stop it! As a pro-Life'er, I am hoping that one day, it will be outlawed in North America.
 

Hard-Luck Henry

Council Member
Feb 19, 2005
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there are perfectly developed countries in the world (like Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Ireland...etc) ... thus have NO ABORTION laws.

James, I put the lies you spread down to your obvious utter ignorance of the things you're talking about, but where do you come up with these things? I mean you can't KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, or you wouldn't make such idiotic statements.

Please elaborate - if you're going to cite examples (and then use "...etc", you really should be able to ...

Let me get you started ...

Abortion law in different Australian states and territories

New South Wales, Queensland, Victoria: Judicial interpretations of what is “unlawful” under the Crimes Act permit abortion on maternal health grounds only.

Tasmania: Legislation is along the lines of Victoria’s judicial interpretation of “unlawful”.

Western Australia: Legislative changes have made abortion legal until 20 weeks’ gestation.

South Australia: Grounds for lawful abortion include a maternal health ground and a fetal disability ground.

Northern Territory: Has similar provisions to those of South Australia up to 14 weeks’ gestation.

Australian Capital Territory: Abortion has been removed from criminal statutes.
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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Oklahoma, USA
Hard-Luck Henry said:
there are perfectly developed countries in the world (like Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Ireland...etc) ... thus have NO ABORTION laws.

James, I put the lies you spread down to your obvious utter ignorance of the things you're talking about, but where do you come up with these things? I mean you can't KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, or you wouldn't make such idiotic statements.

Please elaborate - if you're going to cite examples (and then use "...etc", you really should be able to ...

Let me get you started ...

Abortion law in different Australian states and territories

New South Wales, Queensland, Victoria: Judicial interpretations of what is “unlawful” under the Crimes Act permit abortion on maternal health grounds only.

Tasmania: Legislation is along the lines of Victoria’s judicial interpretation of “unlawful”.

Western Australia: Legislative changes have made abortion legal until 20 weeks’ gestation.

South Australia: Grounds for lawful abortion include a maternal health ground and a fetal disability ground.

Northern Territory: Has similar provisions to those of South Australia up to 14 weeks’ gestation.

Australian Capital Territory: Abortion has been removed from criminal statutes.

Well, Henry I have first cousins on my mother's side living in NewCastle Australia and relatives on my dad's side living in Melbourne, so I would assume my cousins know more regarding the laws of the country they live in than you do.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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You have gots to be kidding 8O you will never see the day you could even come close to knowing a nano speck of what henry does. blah! what a ..... never mind :roll: :roll:
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
1,640
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Oklahoma, USA
Hard-Luck Henry said:
there are perfectly developed countries in the world (like Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Ireland...etc) ... thus have NO ABORTION laws.

James, I put the lies you spread down to your obvious utter ignorance of the things you're talking about, but where do you come up with these things? I mean you can't KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, or you wouldn't make such idiotic statements.

Please elaborate - if you're going to cite examples (and then use "...etc", you really should be able to ...

Let me get you started ...

Abortion law in different Australian states and territories

New South Wales, Queensland, Victoria: Judicial interpretations of what is “unlawful” under the Crimes Act permit abortion on maternal health grounds only.

Tasmania: Legislation is along the lines of Victoria’s judicial interpretation of “unlawful”.

Western Australia: Legislative changes have made abortion legal until 20 weeks’ gestation.

South Australia: Grounds for lawful abortion include a maternal health ground and a fetal disability ground.

Northern Territory: Has similar provisions to those of South Australia up to 14 weeks’ gestation.

Australian Capital Territory: Abortion has been removed from criminal statutes.

Here is more proof Henry, that Australia has NO ABORTION laws on it's books ...

Check out the map ... abortion is only permitted to protect mental health ...

http://www.womenonwaves.org/set-1020.245-en.html
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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Oklahoma, USA
peapod said:
You have gots to be kidding you will never see the day you could even come close to knowing a nano speck of what henry does. blah! what a ..... never mind :roll: :roll:

Hard-Luck Henry said:
I doubt it, James. Not if your grasp of US law is anything to go by.

In case both of you missed it, here is a link substantiating my proof that abortions are outlawed in Australia...

http://www.womenonwaves.org/set-1020.245-en.html
 

Hard-Luck Henry

Council Member
Feb 19, 2005
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Stop wasting my time, James.


Many Australian laws relating to abortion are unclear. Laws in four jurisdictions are still based on an 1861 English law, the Offences Against the Person Act. These laws may suggest that the role of the law is to place obstacles in the way of a woman seeking an abortion, making doctors the gatekeepers. This exposes Australian women and their doctors to unacceptable legal risks and doctors to unacceptable professional risks. Despite these risks, Justice Michael Kirby noted, in a NSW Court of Appeal case, that it was common knowledge that in NSW abortion was available, in effect, on demand.

Here's the link to the Australian parliament's website:
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rp/1998-99/99rp01.htm#major

Read that, and then come back and explain what you meant by "NO ABORTION laws"

More deceit, I expect.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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nascar are you for real 8O 8O 8O hahahhahahaha did you even bother to read that link you posted...Thanks! I did not know anything about Rebecca Gomperts. Wonderful women, thats her website you posted....ehm...lets see now... :roll: :roll: :roll:


Rebecca Gomperts, a medical doctor and founder of the abortion rights organization Women on Waves, received the Margaret Sanger- Woman of Valour Award from Planned Parenthood New York City on April 14. She received this award for providing outstanding contributions to the reproductive rights movement.

Previous awardees include Frances Kissling of Catholics for a Free Choice; Sarah Weddington who argued Roe v Wade; Joycelyn Elders, the former Surgeon General; Faye Wattleton, former head of Planned Parenthood Federation America; and Dr. Nafis Sadik who headed United Nations Family Planning Association for many years.

Rebecca Gomperts (born 1966) studied medicine and visual arts in Amsterdam, the Netherlands. After graduating Gomperts became an abortion doctor and sailed with the Greenpeace ship, Rainbow Warrior, as its doctor and as an environmental activist. While sailing in South America she encountered many women who suffered greatly due to lack of access to reproductive heath services and safe, legal abortions. These women and their stories inspired Rebecca Gomperts to start Women on Waves.

Rebecca Gomperts has also written a novel Zeedrift and published articles and essays. Rebecca Gomperts received the MS Women on the Year 2001 award, the Women Making History Award by Planned Parenthood of New York City and the Clara Meijer Wichmann Penning of 2002 by the Dutch Liga for Human Rights.
 

peapod

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Jun 26, 2004
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Wow! what great women!

http://www.womenonwaves.org/set-1020.63-en.html


Abortion in Australia
In 1990, 23 per cent of all known pregnancies in Australia were terminated. This makes abortion one of the most common surgical procedures in the country, with around 80,000 women undergoing abortion every year. Our current ratio of one abortion in every four pregnancies is an improvement over the estimated one in three recorded in Australia in the 1930s. Comparatively speaking, Australia's abortion rate is reasonably low by international standards. For instance, the United States of America has a 30 per cent abortion rate, while countries such as the former Yugoslavia and Bulgaria have recorded abortion rates of over 50 per cent.

Vague legislation
International research shows that women will still seek abortion, even if the procedure is illegal. Numerous studies have shown that the majority of Australians support the idea of safe and legal abortions. However, Australian abortion laws are typically vague and open to interpretation. Laws differ between States and Territories. Generally, all legislations aim to restrict access to the procedure, and give the decision on whether or not a pregnancy can be terminated to the doctor, instead of the woman. Ambiguous laws mean that public sector services are limited, particularly in rural areas, and doctors are less inclined to train in abortion techniques for fear of legal action.

Typical profile
Around one in three Australian women will undergo an abortion. Unwanted pregnancy can affect any woman of childbearing age, but studies show that some women are at greater risk than others. The typical profile of a woman seeking abortion includes:

Aged in her 20s
Single
Childless
Well educated
Employed.
One in two women were using contraception
It's often believed that only irresponsible women fall pregnant by accident. This is not true. Studies show that between half and two thirds of all women presenting for abortion were using contraception at the time. Significantly, some women using birth control pills were not aware that back-up contraception, such as condoms, needed to be used in cases of vomiting or diarrhoea. Even when used strictly according to the directions, no form of contraception is guaranteed to prevent pregnancy every time. Women who are not in permanent relationships are more likely to fall pregnant by accident, because a woman having irregular sex is less inclined to use regular contraception, like birth control pills.

Sex is not always voluntary
Another common fallacy is that a woman is in control of her body at all times, and should therefore be able to prevent an accidental pregnancy. However, a woman's decision to have sexual intercourse is not always voluntary. Circumstances such as coercion, manipulation, rape and alcohol use can deny a woman the opportunity to exercise her free will and take contraceptive precautions.

Abortion doesn't automatically harm fertility
A safely performed abortion with no complications doesn't reduce a woman's future fertility. This belief may be a hangover from days when abortion was illegal, and 'backyard' procedures carried considerable risks, including infection. Currently, abortion is one of the safest medical procedures in Australia. It is 10 times safer than childbirth, and around 200 times safer than an appendicectomy.

Emotional impact
Studies show that most women who have an abortion don't suffer any subsequent psychological or emotional problems. Women who do experience guilt, depression and grief tend to be those who were coerced into the operation by partners or family. Australian research indicates that a woman is more likely to suffer emotionally if she feels the decision to terminate was, in some way, not fully hers to make. The current legislation that requires a woman to 'convince' the doctor of her eligibility for the procedure can cause distress, since the final decision rests with the medical profession, and not the woman herself.
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
1,640
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Oklahoma, USA
Hard-Luck Henry said:
Stop wasting my time, James.


Many Australian laws relating to abortion are unclear. Laws in four jurisdictions are still based on an 1861 English law, the Offences Against the Person Act. These laws may suggest that the role of the law is to place obstacles in the way of a woman seeking an abortion, making doctors the gatekeepers. This exposes Australian women and their doctors to unacceptable legal risks and doctors to unacceptable professional risks. Despite these risks, Justice Michael Kirby noted, in a NSW Court of Appeal case, that it was common knowledge that in NSW abortion was available, in effect, on demand.

Here's the link to the Australian parliament's website:
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rp/1998-99/99rp01.htm#major

Read that, and then come back and explain what you meant by "NO ABORTION laws"

More deceit, I expect.

I have read your link Henry and it re-confirms the map reference that I had posted. In Australia, in all states and territories, abortion is generally not permitted unless either the life of the mother is in danger or there is a risk the baby would be born physically or mentally handicapped.

So how can you still say abortions are legal in Australia???
 

Martin Le Acadien

Electoral Member
Sep 29, 2004
454
0
16
Province perdue du Canada, Louisian
Re: RE: Cross-Border Abortion

manda said:
Cosmo said:
Manda ... I agree. It's not fair at all. I have a friend who I knew would be an incredible parent who could not have babies. I even entertained the idea of having a baby for her. Well, entertained it for a split second -- the idea of having a human being growing inside my body mortifies me. I could never do it. Thankfully she now has 2 beautiful adopted girls.

I've known women who gave children up for adoption. It is one of the bravest, most selfless acts a human can do. But it affects these women for the rest of their lives. I don't know if I could be that brave. Add to the mix that most adoptive kids come from teens who are not psychologically prepared for something so enormous and it's amazing that anyone gives babies up.

I am an absolute supporter of pro choice, no ambivlance at all. But any woman strong enough to carry and child for those who cannot is a hero to me. I still maintain, however, that if the fathers of these children make it clear they don't want to raise a child or have any responsibility in it, they should be given that freedom as well. Our present laws are flawed.

I agree whole heartedly with almost all of your post Cosmo.

I have seen dear friends, and yes, I still love them, despite the fact that I could not agree with their decision, have abortions and then feel guilty beyond belief, one to the point of being hospitalised for psychiatric evaluation. Any decision in this situation is going to affect the rest of your life, but given my position and what I have lived, I just can not agree with abortion, although, I don't hold anything against thse who can

Manda,

Your position mirrors the belief sytem I hold also, you see, I have 1 son and 4 Daughters (2 sets of twins) so I have something as a father to add to this thread.

1. Anyone doing any medical procedures without my wife's or mine consent to our minor children should not be allowed, PERIOD. We are getting away from the main topic of this thread and Parental Consent or Court Permission should never be allowed to be waived under any circumstances. What the boyfriend's parents done was highly questionable to say the least! I think there already laws on the books to cover that situation!

2. The daughters have been real easy to talk to since we are real close to the kids and their friends, the first step in being a parent. Their interest in Acadien Geneology has given them insight into their reproductive powers and how they could end up being on the "chart". 8O One daughter remarked last summer in Nova Scotia how come we Acadiens are so plentiful and my wife almost drowned in her drink when the other answered, "Mom and Dad had five, at that rate the Acadiens could be the dominant force in North America within 200 years!" Needless to say, this brought up a Mother-Daughter talk that was quite interesting to listen to. :oops:

3. Respect for life is personal and every person must let their conscience be their guide. I have my own belif system and life is precious.
 
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